Turkish Engine Programs

[MMM-E]

Back to my point, this is why I am skeptical when some underdeveloped countries claim that they are going to build a full blown military grade airbreathing engine. They need to do it a step by step. TEI PD170 sounds like a great start. A small diesel engine that could be used in UAV. Turkey will get there, eventually, but a 1400hp turboshaft and other engine projects that could be used for military applications sound a bit too ambitious for Turkey. Then again, Turkey may surprise me in the future. They did with Anka, so why not?

My video about Turkish Engine and Aviation projects .. Turkey also working with American GE and LM for decades

 

[Saithan]

Mitsubishi X-2 Shinshin is not a 5th gen fighter jet, but an experimental technology demonstrator with two domestic low-pass 11,000 lb turbofans engines (with afterburner) by IHI which is another reputable company in the industry. Even then, Japan had to receive high-pass turbofans engine technologies from the US for Mitsubishi & Lockheed Martin F-2 deal in exchange for Japanese AESA radar, materials technologies and other relevant stuffs that Japan had some technological edge over other countries. In order words, even Japan needed help from the US for turbofans engine and it costed Japan their knowledge in engineering, technical expertise and skills in other fields.

Yes, Japan is going to build a 5th gen stealth fighter jet. However, even a military journalist who has covered the Japanese military industry for years blasts the Japanese government for being too ambitious of developing every critical part including the turbofan engine.

"日本に最先端戦闘機開発の能力無し"
https://japan-indepth.jp/?p=51870

However, I still believe Japan has capabilities to design, manufacture and fly a 5th fighter jet because they have industries. I just think they would need to collaborate with the US, the UK and other countries on a greater scale.

Back to my point, this is why I am skeptical when some underdeveloped countries claim that they are going to build a full blown military grade airbreathing engine. They need to do it a step by step. TEI PD170 sounds like a great start. A small diesel engine that could be used in UAV. Turkey will get there, eventually, but a 1400hp turboshaft and other engine projects that could be used for military applications sound a bit too ambitious for Turkey. Then again, Turkey may surprise me in the future. They did with Anka, so why not?

Thanks for that informative reply. Omae, Nihongo wakaru ka.

Turkey will get there one way or another it's just a question of time and support.

 

[-SINAN-]

Mitsubishi X-2 Shinshin is not a 5th gen fighter jet, but an experimental technology demonstrator with two domestic low-pass 11,000 lb turbofans engines (with afterburner) by IHI which is another reputable company in the industry. Even then, Japan had to receive high-pass turbofans engine technologies from the US for Mitsubishi & Lockheed Martin F-2 deal in exchange for Japanese AESA radar, materials technologies and other relevant stuffs that Japan had some technological edge over other countries. In order words, even Japan needed help from the US for turbofans engine and it costed Japan their knowledge in engineering, technical expertise and skills in other fields.

Yes, Japan is going to build a 5th gen stealth fighter jet. However, even a military journalist who has covered the Japanese military industry for years blasts the Japanese government for being too ambitious of developing every critical part including the turbofan engine.

"日本に最先端戦闘機開発の能力無し"
https://japan-indepth.jp/?p=51870

However, I still believe Japan has capabilities to design, manufacture and fly a 5th fighter jet because they have industries. I just think they would need to collaborate with the US, the UK and other countries on a greater scale.

Back to my point, this is why I am skeptical when some underdeveloped countries claim that they are going to build a full blown military grade airbreathing engine. They need to do it a step by step. TEI PD170 sounds like a great start. A small diesel engine that could be used in UAV. Turkey will get there, eventually, but a 1400hp turboshaft and other engine projects that could be used for military applications sound a bit too ambitious for Turkey. Then again, Turkey may surprise me in the future. They did with Anka, so why not?

You can find more info about the initial development stages of the Turbıshaft engine here.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turkish-engine-programs.300889/page-18#post-6918890

5 Years ago (2015), all of this was on paper. Instutes, Universities, Companies just signed a MoU.

3 Year later core engine has been ignited.

Meaning of the critical components like combustion chamber, turbine and compressor fan blades, have been designed and produced in mere 3 years.

 

[SgtGungHo]

My video about Turkish Engine and Aviation projects .. Turkey also working with American GE and LM for decades

(Sigh) Mate, Japan rolled out a prototype jet-powered trainer by Fuji with a foreign engine in 1950s and with a domestic turbojet engine by IHI in 1960s.

There are hundreds of companies (subcontractors and partners) have 'worked with GE and LM for decades' across the world and I am not sure how many of them actually can design & manufacture airbreathing jet engines that are comparable with GE engines or design & manufacture a fighter jet comparable with LM's products.

Turkey doesn't have the aerospace & airbreathing jet engine industry comparable with other developed countries such as Japan which can design & manufacture them. It is just the fact. I commend Turkey of attempting to build an industry and its success, but that's the reality.

 

[Saithan]

(Sigh) Mate, Japan rolled out a prototype jet-powered trainer by Fuji with a foreign engine in 1950s and with a domestic turbojet engine by IHI in 1960s.

There are hundreds of companies (subcontractors and partners) have 'worked with GE and LM for decades' across the world and I am not sure how many of them actually can design & manufacture airbreathing jet engines that are comparable with GE engines or design & manufacture a fighter jet comparable with LM's products.

Turkey doesn't have the aerospace & airbreathing jet engine industry comparable with other developed countries such as Japan which can design & manufacture them. It is just the fact. I commend Turkey of attempting to build an industry and its success, but that's the reality.

Like you pointed out, it's interesting to see and follow. I think it's just as important to believe that we (Turkey) can do it, and work towards it.

There will be hurdles and we'll have to overcome them. If we just give up because everyone says we should then we'll never make it. So just wish us good luck

 

[SgtGungHo]

You can find more info about the initial development stages of the Turbıshaft engine here.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turkish-engine-programs.300889/page-18#post-6918890

5 Years ago (2015), all of this was on paper. Instutes, Universities, Companies just signed a MoU.

3 Year later core engine has been ignited.

Meaning of the critical components like combustion chamber, turbine and compressor fan blades, have been designed and produced in mere 3 years.

Looks promising. They got everything covered, especially metallurgy and blade technologies. Again, I have my reasonable doubts, but again Turkey has surprised me with their progress on many technological advancements.

 

[neosinan]

Engine development in Turkey is a fascinating story. It seems like Turkish industry doesn't have much experience in designing engines, especially large engines for industrial applications, but they have so many impressive projects. TEI PD170 was believable since it was a small 170hp diesel engine, but a 1400ph turboshaft engine? That's really good IF the company manages to design & manufacture serviceable military-grade engines.

As far as I know even a Japanese company, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries which is a very reputable company in the field has tried to develop a domestic turboshaft engine with some help from the Japanese government, but even the company couldn't match performance and reliability of existing turboshaft engines. I believe the Japanese government rejected a domestic Attack helicopter (AH-2) with an improved domestic engine in favour of AH-64 Apache.

There is basically one big difference between Turkish military/engine projects and Japanese ones.

Japanese projects developed with intention of being next generation for next generation while Turkey has much more modest requirements. Generally Current gen plus some features with ASAP timelines.

F2 shin shin will turn into more capable fighter then f22 while MMU probably won't have some features of f22, 25 years old fighter. This is also true for ts1400, it will have barely better specs than current turboshaft engines while US's current turboshaft project will have leap frog all the current engines.

By No means Turkey is developing inferior products but they are intended with current generation technologies in mind. Mainly because of money and time constraints. That is the current situation for now.

 

[SgtGungHo]

There is basically one big difference between Turkish military/engine projects and Japanese ones.

Japanese projects developed with intention of being next generation for next generation while Turkey has much more modest requirements. Generally Current gen plus some features with ASAP timelines.

F2 shin shin will turn into more capable fighter then f22 while MMU probably won't have some features of f22, 25 years old fighter. This is also true for ts1400, it will have barely better specs than current turboshaft engines while US's current turboshaft project will have leap frog all the current engines.

By No means Turkey is developing inferior products but they are intended with current generation technologies in mind. Mainly because of money and time constraints. That is the current situation for now.

I don't want to be disrespectful, but I have to tell you that I doubt Turkey is even in a position of Japan in their 1960s when they flew a domestic jet engine powered mass-manufactured trainer by Fuji. By the way, Fuji is Subaru and the company roots can be traced back to the aircraft company during the World War II.

That's about 50+ something years ago and a few generation before the fifth gen fighter jet and it was done by companies that had at least years of expertise in 1960s.

It took a few decades of accumulated data, expertise in engineering and knowledge for Japan to fly a Kawasaki T-4 then another few years to fly a Mitsubishi F-2, a 4th gen fighter jet. As far as I concern, Turkey has not even achieved that. Yet, Turkey wants to build a 5th gen fighter jet straight away and develop accommodating turbofans engine as well.

This is why people have reasonable doubt over some of Turkey's aviation & engine programs. I am not saying the programs are bound to fail nor they are not possible at all, but I would agree with critics that the programs are a bit too ambitious.

By the way, the Japanese domestic turboshaft engine that was suggested along with Japanese-designed AH-2 by Kawasaki had an output of 1300sph if I remember correctly. previously Mitsubishi built a 890sph turboshaft engine for OH-1 Ninja. And Turkish company is aspiring to develop a 1400sph. You see, people are rightfully to be skeptical, but Turkey could prove them wrong.

 

[mehmeTcc]

So every country who is new to aviation industry should start from making Me-262 knockoffs.

 

[SgtGungHo]

So every country who is new to aviation industry should start from making Me-262 knockoffs.

I mean why not? I doubt many countries can even build a serviceable Me-262 knock off straight away even if they are given all the blueprints. It would be a better idea to start with a trainer like Hurjet (with an existing foreign engine which is the most complicate part).

You have to start from somewhere and by working on Me-262, some countries may learn a thing or two from it.

 

[-------]

I think the TS1400 is shaping up quite nicely. And yes, we should not expect the first iteration of the engine to be on par with its competitors' engines.
btw the core of TS1400 has been certified.

 

[Saithan]

I think you guys are pretty much on same page, just wording it differently. Like dancing around the fire.

There is a saying that goes "There is no need to reinvent the wheel all over again".

I think we're going to be succesful building TS1400 engine and sticking it on atak.

I am not sure if we're going to be 5th gen right of the bat, I have my doubts and I guess you guys are on same page as well.

We may get to a 5th gen when we have accumulated enough experience with TS1400 and R&D further, but the timeline... I am not sure when so to satisfy all parties between 1-100 years (miracles do happen).

Let's just wait and see 2023 is like a hardcore/softcore deadline for having a domestic jet airborne. Surely we can all just follow the development and see what's going to happen.

 

[MMM-E]

Turkey doesn't have the aerospace & airbreathing jet engine industry comparable with other developed countries such as Japan which can design & manufacture them. It is just the fact. I commend Turkey of attempting to build an industry and its success, but that's the reality.

Its not Engine thread but I have some infos for you

Japan and Turkey are almost same

in 1970s Kawasaki,Mitsubishi and IHI partnered with Rolls Royce and GE to develop turbofan engines
and Japanese Aero Engine Corporation has been involved of other engine projects with GE , RR , Pratt & Whitney
also Kawasaki,Mitsubishi,etc are involved in the joint international development and production of passenger aircrafts , airframe components, fuselage panels ,etc for Boeing
also Mitshubishi produced F-16 Fighter Jet and Blackhawk Helicopter under license

and Japan has developed turbofan engine prototype similar to GE F110 Engine
also Japan has developed turbofan engine for Kawasaki P-1 ASW Aircraft

and Kawasaki built RR RTM322 and Honeywell T-55 turboshaft engines under license
and Mitshubishi has developed turboshaft engines up to 1.000 shp for light Helicopters



about TURKEY

Turkey also working with LM , GE , RR , Pratt & Whitney , etc for decades

TEI having started its manufacturing activities with 12 parts in 1985, currently manufactures over 800 components for 40 different Engine programs ( GE , RR , Pratt & Whitney , SAFRAN ) with its more than three decade experience in part and module manufacturing

-- Rotating Parts (Shaft, Seal, etc.)
-- Modules (Power Turbine Module, Front Bearing Structure Module, etc.)
-- Fabricated Parts (Mixing Duct, Swirl Frame, etc.)
-- Structural Parts (Intermediate Casing, HPT Casing, Combustion Casing, etc.)
-- Blisk and Spool Manufacturing (Compressor Stg 1 - Stg 5 Blisks, HPC Spool Shaft Stg 10, etc.)

Blisk and Spool Manufacturing Technologies
Blisk and spool manufacturing technologies, recently being used on new generation engines, are regarded as state of the art and advanced level applications for aviation industry which are high tech manufacturing methods currently employed in only 6 countries around the world and Turkey is one of them

also TEI produce GE F110 turbofan engine under license
also TEI produce GE T700 turboshaft engine under license


and Turkish Aerospace Industries produced F-16 Fighter Jet and Blackhawk Helicopter under license
also Turkish Aerospace Industries produce central Fusulage of F-35 Fighter

and Turkish Aerospace Industries are involved in the joint international development and production of passenger aircrafts , airframe components, fuselage panels ,etc for Boeing and Airbus


so TEI has developed 1600shp TS-1400 turboshaft engine to power T-129 Attack Helicopter and T-625 Utility Helicopter by 2021-2022

and in 2018 Turkey has started developing turbofan engine for the TFX Fighter Jet project ... We can see turbofan prototype by 2030-2032

 

[mehmeTcc]

Engineering is incremental, not cumulative. Every now and then a new iteration occurs and people around the world follow this new trend, hence why nobody wants to make another iPhone 1 or Plasma TVs anymore.

Anybody who had some degree of experience in an engineering project would've understand this. I know for a fact that there are engineers more senior compared to me in this forum who can explain things a bit better, but I can recommend checking PMBOK out as it is usually the place to learn more about how engineering works: https://www.pmi.org/pmbok-guide-standards

 

[SgtGungHo]

Engineering is incremental, not cumulative. Every now and then a new iteration occurs and people around the world follow this new trend, hence why nobody wants to make another iPhone 1 or Plasma TVs anymore.

Advanced engineering & manufacturing require accumulated data, know-hows and experience. Aerospace & airbreathing jet engine engineering is one of fields that demand decades of intense and accumulative research.

So-called trend is led by people who come up with an idea based on data from their in-lab experiments and feedback from real world applications.

It is the same reason why not all engineers can build a Iphone 11 or a LG OLED TV that matches quality of the original even if they were allowed to use the same parts and the same assembly factory.