Turkic - Anatolian Music

[ASQ-1918]

ASQ its says OFa(Middle Persian) appurtan, appar- alıp götürmek, çalmak << İr *apa-bar- << HAvr *apo-bher- § HAvr *apo ayrılma edatı + HAvr*bher- taşımak, götürmek

Its doesn gives it as a fact though, but as the most possible explanation, if its a borrowing from Iranian languages then I presume its an old borrowing, not from modern Persian.

I'm certain that its not the case, there is no way that Siberian dialects may had borrowed a word from Iranian. And the absence of such a word in any of Iranian languages, not just Persian, and its presence in most or all of eastern Turkic dialects excludes such a explanation, but points to a proto-Turkic origin like said.

 

[Targon]

Thats not really an explanation, when we say borrowing from Iranian languages you shouldn't directly think of Iran, there were Iranian speaker nomads in western central Asia which we certainly had some relationship, for example word "Araba" is also a borrowing from an Iranian language believed to be one of the ones from steppes.

Plus etymologic explanation is satisfying.

 

[telkon]

I'm certain that its not the case, there is no way that Siberian dialects may had borrowed a word from Iranian. And the absence of such a word in any of Iranian languages, not just Persian, and its presence in most or all of eastern Turkic dialects excludes such a explanation, but points to a proto-Turkic origin like said.

Thats not really an explanation, when we say borrowing from Iranian languages you shouldn't directly think of Iran, there were Iranian speaker nomads in western central Asia which we certainly had some relationship, for example word "Araba" is also a borrowing from an Iranian language believed to be one of the ones from steppes.

Plus etymologic explanation is satisfying.

etymological dictionary of turkic languages, vol.1, page 128 cites that verb form apar, appar, appa(r) is formed from "alıp bar+", formed in the same way as verb form "akel, ekel" which formed from "alıp kel+". so, i think iranian borrowing is out of question.

 

[ASQ-1918]

However, it appears that the etymology of Turkic "Apar" is "Alıp bar", take+go. So perhaps your example is just a coincidence.

Edit: Telkon posted the same thing.

 

[anatolia]

"Apar" is certainly a Turkic word. It exists in Yakut language with the same meaning as in Azerbaijani. Yakut is perhaps the most distant to other Turkic languages, so this indicates a proto-Turkic origin of "Apar".

apar - Vikisözlük

Also, it doesn't exist in any of Iranian languages, at least not in that meaning.

@telkon

I believe you are mixing up Turkic "Bala" and Persian "Bâlâ", which means high/elevated.

antepte aparmak yani goturmek sozu cok kullanilir .. bizim koyler turkmendir genelde..

 

[kaykay]

thanks dude. Cant thank there as no 'thank' button is visible from mobile.
Anyway wanted to ask if 'mavrova'dan aldim bir okka nahut' is traditional Turkish song? I mean its like all singers sing this song including Gulay.

 

[Targon]

Telkon , its certainly not out of question, the etymologic explanation I gave is satisfying, can it be a strange coincidence ? may be, but in my opinion with a little change.

Btw you mentioned first meetings between Kyrgyz and Turkish but for example even if they don't learn each other's language, do they start understanding each other better after a while ?(few days or weeks may be), is learning Turkish or Kyrgyz is like learning a new language or just like adopting into a hard dialect ? how much time its takes ?

kaykay

Its a traditional Rumelian(Balkan) Turkish song.

 

[telkon]

Telkon , its certainly not out of question, the etymologic explanation I gave is satisfying, can it be a strange coincidence ? may be, but in my opinion with a little change.

Btw you mentioned first meetings between Kyrgyz and Turkish but for example even if they don't learn each other's language, do they start understanding each other better after a while ?(few days or weeks may be), is learning Turkish or Kyrgyz is like learning a new language or just like adopting into a hard dialect ? how much time its takes ?

kaykay

Its a traditional Rumelian(Balkan) Turkish song.

your explanation would be ok if this verb form wasn't present in turkmen, azeri, kyrgyz, kazakh, tuvan, shor, lopnor, karakalpak, khakas to name a few. middle persian means pahlavi and at that time there wasn't much contact between turkics and iranians in a scale that even tuvan or shor would be affected with that.

to your question, it depends on language. i don't think it would be hard for azeri or uzbek, but it may be very hard for yakut or bashkort. it took me 1 year to learn book turkish when i came to turkey, it was like i didn't know turkish at all. i could understand tv or newspaper, but it was somewhat hard to understand daily speech.


edit: what's your source on pahlavi example?

 

[Targon]

Its not not necesserily have to be from Pahlavi, source just sites it was from Indo-Europan and also present in Middle Persian, it can be from extinct Central Asian Iranian languages, an early borrowing, its presence in eastern Turkic languages doesn't really proves anything as we know there was early interactions with Iranians when even Turks were still concentrated in eastern regions, Araba is an example, as well some titles etc. from early period.

I'm using Nişanyan.

I'm disappointed, whats happened to mutual intellectebility claims

 

[telkon]

Its not not necesserily have to be from Pahlavi, source just sites it was from Indo-Europan and also present in Middle Persian, it can be from extinct Central Asian Iranian languages, an early borrowing, its presence in eastern Turkic languages doesn't really proves anything as we know there was early interactions with Iranians when even Turks were still concentrated in eastern regions, Araba is an example, as well some titles etc. from early period.

I'm using Nişanyan.

I'm disappointed, whats happened to mutual intellectebility claims

there's the rule of occam's razor which states that among competing hypotheses, the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions should be selected. there are examples of apar's usage and formation, there are sources, so in my view no need to be stubborn

are you referring to araba in this:

Araba kelimesi ilk kez Codex Cumanicus'da geçmektedir Sakaca rraha (at arabası) ses evrimi ile Zentçe raθa aynı anlamda ve eşkökenli Sanskritçerátha (ata koşulan tören arabası) eşkökenli Arapçaarrādat ( عرّادة ) (iki tekerlekli savaş arabası) eşkökenli Latince raeda (dört tekerlekli at arabası)

i think that's also from nişanyan.

actually, many languages apart from turkish are mutually intelligible. i think turkish just went beyond range in language due to distance and different developmental stages.

 

[Targon]

My hopes and dreams

Is it just daily istanbul speech or for example is it

More understandable ?

 

[ASQ-1918]

Traditional Azerbaijani song from 19th century.

Gedin deyin Xançobana,
Gəlməsin bu il Muğana
Muğan batıb qızıl qana
Apardı sellər saranı
Bir ala gözlü balanı.

Arpaçayı aşdı daşdı,
Sel saranı aldı qaçdı.
Ala gözlü qələm qaşlı,
Apardı sellər saranı,
Bir ala gözlü balanı.

Arpaçayı dərin olmaz,
İçməyə su sərin olmaz.
Sara kimi gəlin olmaz,
Apardı sellər saranı,
Bir ala gözlü balanı.

Nearly totally intelligible to Anatolian Turkish speakers.

(İl - Yıl
Bat-ıb - Bat-mış
Kimi - Gibi
suffix Nı vs Yı, Saranı - Sarayı, Balanı - Yavruyu)

 

[Targon]

Yeah %95 understandable.

And lyrics written pretty much in same style with our folk songs.

 

[xenon54 out]

@telkon @Targon @ASQ-1918 @rmi5

We should continue the conversation in this thread.


Turkic World Photos/News/Discussions.

@Neptune can you move the conversation here pls?

 

[T-123456]

thanks dude. Cant thank there as no 'thank' button is visible from mobile.
Anyway wanted to ask if 'mavrova'dan aldim bir okka nahut' is traditional Turkish song? I mean its like all singers sing this song including Gulay.

Yes its an old Rumeli,Balkan song as Telkon explained.
Turkish music is very diverse,many influences from various styles,regions,people.