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Turkey’s S-400 vs F-35 dilemma in 2019
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Yankee-stani
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Too bad the Georgian watermelon seller only talks and does not do crap
TheMightyBender
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Turkey has until next month to cancel a messy multibillion-dollar Russian arms deal or face harsh US penalties
PUBLISHED TUE, MAY 21 2019 3:42 PM EDTUPDATED TUE, MAY 21 2019 4:38 PM EDT
Amanda Macias@AMANDA_M_MACIAS
KEY POINTS
Russia’s S-400 surface-to-air missile system is seen during a military parade in Moscow’s Red Square.
Sefa Karacan | Anadolu Agency | Getty Images
WASHINGTON — Turkey has a little more than two weeks to decide whether to complete a complex arms deal with the U.S. or risk severe penalties by going through with an agreement to buy a missile system from Russia, according to multiple people familiar with the matter.
By the end of the first week of June, Turkey must cancel a multibillion-dollar deal with Russia and instead buy Raytheon’s U.S.-made Patriot missile defense system — or face removal from Lockheed Martin’s F-35 program, forfeiture of 100 promised F-35 jets, imposition of U.S. sanctions and potential blowback from NATO.
As it stands now, the U.S. State Department’s current offer is the final one, multiple sources who spoke on the condition of anonymity told CNBC when asked whether the deadline had room for more extensions.
Turkey, a NATO member, is slated to receive the Russian-made S-400, a mobile surface-to-air missile system, next month. The S-400 is said to pose a risk to the NATO alliance as well as the F-35, America’s most expensive weapons platform.
“NATO countries need to procure military equipment that is interoperable with NATO systems. A Russian system would not meet that standard,” said a U.S. State Department official who requested anonymity given the sensitivity of the matter.
“We underscore that Turkey will face very real and negative consequences if it completes its S-400 delivery,” the official added.
In 2017, Ankara brokered a deal reportedly worth $2.5 billion with the Kremlin for the S-400 despite warnings from the U.S. that buying the system would come with political and economic consequences.
In multiple efforts to deter Turkey from buying the S-400, the State Department offered in 2013 and 2017 to sell the country Raytheon’s Patriot missile system. Ankara passed on the Patriot both times because the U.S. declined to provide a transfer of the system’s sensitive missile technology.
All the while, Turkey has become a financial and manufacturing partner for Lockheed Martin’s F-35 jet, the world’s most advanced fighter.
An F-35 fighter jet is seen as Turkey takes delivery of its first F-35 fighter jet with a ceremony in Forth Worth, Texas, USA on June 21, 2018. Two such planes destined for Turkey are yet to leave American soil.
Atilgan Ozdil | Anadolu Agency | Getty Images
Lockheed Martin and Raytheon were preparing to make massive adjustments to their intricate production schedulesamid a contentious negotiation with Turkey.
If Turkey goes through with the Russian deal, Lockheed Martin would have to rework its supply chain on components for the F-35 fighter jet, while also making changes to its production schedule.
Yet if Turkey abandons its deal with Russia, Raytheon would reorganize the Patriot missile defense system production schedule to guarantee that Turkey could receive the missile system within a faster time frame.
Last year, Turkey was in the process of constructing a site for the S-400 system, according to a person with firsthand knowledge of an intelligence rep
The intelligence assessment included satellite imagery of a concrete launch facility as well as bunkers, according to the person, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. The new construction fits the pattern for Russia’s S-400 system, the person indicated.
If Turkey does receive its S-400 from the Kremlin this summer, the system is expected to be ready for use by 2020.
PUBLISHED TUE, MAY 21 2019 3:42 PM EDTUPDATED TUE, MAY 21 2019 4:38 PM EDT
Amanda Macias@AMANDA_M_MACIAS
KEY POINTS
- Turkey has a little more than two weeks to decide whether to complete a complex arms deal with the U.S. or risk severe penalties by going through with an agreement to buy a missile system from Russia, according to multiple people familiar with the matter.
- By the end of the first week of June, Turkey must cancel the Russian deal and buy Raytheon’s U.S.-made Patriot missile defense system or face removal from Lockheed Martin’s F-35 program, forfeiture of 100 promised F-35 jets, imposition of U.S. sanctions and potential blowback from NATO.
- The U.S. State Department’s current offer is the final one, according to multiple sources.
Russia’s S-400 surface-to-air missile system is seen during a military parade in Moscow’s Red Square.
Sefa Karacan | Anadolu Agency | Getty Images
WASHINGTON — Turkey has a little more than two weeks to decide whether to complete a complex arms deal with the U.S. or risk severe penalties by going through with an agreement to buy a missile system from Russia, according to multiple people familiar with the matter.
By the end of the first week of June, Turkey must cancel a multibillion-dollar deal with Russia and instead buy Raytheon’s U.S.-made Patriot missile defense system — or face removal from Lockheed Martin’s F-35 program, forfeiture of 100 promised F-35 jets, imposition of U.S. sanctions and potential blowback from NATO.
As it stands now, the U.S. State Department’s current offer is the final one, multiple sources who spoke on the condition of anonymity told CNBC when asked whether the deadline had room for more extensions.
Turkey, a NATO member, is slated to receive the Russian-made S-400, a mobile surface-to-air missile system, next month. The S-400 is said to pose a risk to the NATO alliance as well as the F-35, America’s most expensive weapons platform.
“NATO countries need to procure military equipment that is interoperable with NATO systems. A Russian system would not meet that standard,” said a U.S. State Department official who requested anonymity given the sensitivity of the matter.
“We underscore that Turkey will face very real and negative consequences if it completes its S-400 delivery,” the official added.
In 2017, Ankara brokered a deal reportedly worth $2.5 billion with the Kremlin for the S-400 despite warnings from the U.S. that buying the system would come with political and economic consequences.
In multiple efforts to deter Turkey from buying the S-400, the State Department offered in 2013 and 2017 to sell the country Raytheon’s Patriot missile system. Ankara passed on the Patriot both times because the U.S. declined to provide a transfer of the system’s sensitive missile technology.
All the while, Turkey has become a financial and manufacturing partner for Lockheed Martin’s F-35 jet, the world’s most advanced fighter.
An F-35 fighter jet is seen as Turkey takes delivery of its first F-35 fighter jet with a ceremony in Forth Worth, Texas, USA on June 21, 2018. Two such planes destined for Turkey are yet to leave American soil.
Atilgan Ozdil | Anadolu Agency | Getty Images
Lockheed Martin and Raytheon were preparing to make massive adjustments to their intricate production schedulesamid a contentious negotiation with Turkey.
If Turkey goes through with the Russian deal, Lockheed Martin would have to rework its supply chain on components for the F-35 fighter jet, while also making changes to its production schedule.
Yet if Turkey abandons its deal with Russia, Raytheon would reorganize the Patriot missile defense system production schedule to guarantee that Turkey could receive the missile system within a faster time frame.
Last year, Turkey was in the process of constructing a site for the S-400 system, according to a person with firsthand knowledge of an intelligence rep
The intelligence assessment included satellite imagery of a concrete launch facility as well as bunkers, according to the person, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. The new construction fits the pattern for Russia’s S-400 system, the person indicated.
If Turkey does receive its S-400 from the Kremlin this summer, the system is expected to be ready for use by 2020.
MMM-E
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-- stop supporting PKK/YPG Terror organization who killed over 40.000 Turkish People since 1985 to destroy Turkey's territorial integrity .... ( the US is trying to destroy Turkey's territorial integrity )
-- stop supporting FETO Terror organization who killed 250 Turkish People in 2016 to destroy Turkish Government and Turkey ( the US is trying to destroy Turkey )
-- stop supporting Bandit Countries Greece-Israel-Egypt against Turkey in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea ( the US is trying to steal gas and oil reserves from the Turks in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea )
S400 will kick dirty American-Israeli plans in Turkey,Syria and in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea
-- stop supporting FETO Terror organization who killed 250 Turkish People in 2016 to destroy Turkish Government and Turkey ( the US is trying to destroy Turkey )
-- stop supporting Bandit Countries Greece-Israel-Egypt against Turkey in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea ( the US is trying to steal gas and oil reserves from the Turks in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea )
S400 will kick dirty American-Israeli plans in Turkey,Syria and in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea
Bismarck
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Its seems the number doesn't changed since years. And not all are Turkish citizen.
That's why its over 40.000
Bismarck
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Estimated over 60.000 would be more correct.
TheMightyBender
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Hulusi Akar (Minister of Defense): we should prepare for CAATSA
Deino
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Was this already posted?
https://www.janes.com/article/88770/us-senate-defence-policy-bill-bans-f-35-transfers-to-turkey
https://www.janes.com/article/88770/us-senate-defence-policy-bill-bans-f-35-transfers-to-turkey
MMM-E
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Turkey is not customer , Turkey is a global partner of F-35 program since 1999
that means the US will pay billions of dollars of penalty to Turkey
btw American control F-35 is useless for the Turkish Airforce
Turkey never can use F-35s against Israel but Israel can use F-35s against Turkey
Turkish Airforce can use F-35s against only Iran and Russia
no reason to fight against Russia and even 230 F-16C/D are enough for outdated Iran
the real threat comes to Turkey from the US backed Greece,Israel,Egypt and PKK/YPG , FETO terror organizations
to give $10 billion for American control F-35s its waste money ?
Israel has a unique position in the project because it is the only country that is allowed to equip the F-35 with its avionics and software
on the other hand Turkish Airforce F-35s always will be dependent on the US
the F-35 like as a flying computer
The internal programming of the F-35 includes more than 8 million lines of code, more than 4 times as much as the F-22
1 .... Mission data loads (MDL)
They contain extensive information about potential targets, enemy combat aircraft and other possible threats, such as air defense positions, each with its electronic or infrared signatures
The MDL has to be loaded into the F-35’s onboard computer before each mission and has to be updated after each mission
More serious is the lack of mission data loads (MDL)
without this MDL, the F-35 cannot find its targets or escape possible threats. Its stealth capability largely depends on the MDL to calculate optimal flight routes around enemy air defense and interceptors
Only one location in the US is currently capable of programming the MDL for all F-35s
2 ... Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS)
Another major weakness of the F-35
ALIS is a complex computer system consisting of 65 individual programs with 16 million lines of code that continuously collects and analyzes aircraft data.
It is used among other things, for resource planning, threat analyses, maintenance diagnoses and planning, and for ordering spare parts
All F-35s including those from partner countries must update their mission files and ALIS profiles before and after each flight in the ALIS mainframe in the US
also there are risks of cyber attacks
the data from each F-35 is downloaded, then it is first electronically sent to the ALIS mainframe in the US which then forwards it to the Lockheed Martin
From there the updated data on the mainframe will be transferred back to all F-35s, even overseas....... If the Internet connection from the US to Turkey,
for example, is interrupted by cyber attacks on network nodes or sabotage to the underwater cables, the F-35s cut off from ALIS in Turkey
so Israel has a legitimate concern that an F-35 will become inoperable in the middle of a conflict because of cyber attacks compromised ALIS
Israel is staying outside the global network with ALIS or has installed its maintenance software
However, ALIS is not only exposed to cyber threats on the internet
but also some JSF partner countries believe that it transmits too much operational data to the US
The ALIS network also provides the US with active control over the F-35s stationed in partner countries by distributing updates and patches of both internal and external F-35 software
and In the future, ALIS could also be used by the US as a Trojan horse to import malicious software into F-35s and paralyze them on the software side
that means the US will pay billions of dollars of penalty to Turkey
btw American control F-35 is useless for the Turkish Airforce
Turkey never can use F-35s against Israel but Israel can use F-35s against Turkey
Turkish Airforce can use F-35s against only Iran and Russia
no reason to fight against Russia and even 230 F-16C/D are enough for outdated Iran
the real threat comes to Turkey from the US backed Greece,Israel,Egypt and PKK/YPG , FETO terror organizations
to give $10 billion for American control F-35s its waste money ?
Israel has a unique position in the project because it is the only country that is allowed to equip the F-35 with its avionics and software
on the other hand Turkish Airforce F-35s always will be dependent on the US
the F-35 like as a flying computer
The internal programming of the F-35 includes more than 8 million lines of code, more than 4 times as much as the F-22
1 .... Mission data loads (MDL)
They contain extensive information about potential targets, enemy combat aircraft and other possible threats, such as air defense positions, each with its electronic or infrared signatures
The MDL has to be loaded into the F-35’s onboard computer before each mission and has to be updated after each mission
More serious is the lack of mission data loads (MDL)
without this MDL, the F-35 cannot find its targets or escape possible threats. Its stealth capability largely depends on the MDL to calculate optimal flight routes around enemy air defense and interceptors
Only one location in the US is currently capable of programming the MDL for all F-35s
2 ... Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS)
Another major weakness of the F-35
ALIS is a complex computer system consisting of 65 individual programs with 16 million lines of code that continuously collects and analyzes aircraft data.
It is used among other things, for resource planning, threat analyses, maintenance diagnoses and planning, and for ordering spare parts
All F-35s including those from partner countries must update their mission files and ALIS profiles before and after each flight in the ALIS mainframe in the US
also there are risks of cyber attacks
the data from each F-35 is downloaded, then it is first electronically sent to the ALIS mainframe in the US which then forwards it to the Lockheed Martin
From there the updated data on the mainframe will be transferred back to all F-35s, even overseas....... If the Internet connection from the US to Turkey,
for example, is interrupted by cyber attacks on network nodes or sabotage to the underwater cables, the F-35s cut off from ALIS in Turkey
so Israel has a legitimate concern that an F-35 will become inoperable in the middle of a conflict because of cyber attacks compromised ALIS
Israel is staying outside the global network with ALIS or has installed its maintenance software
However, ALIS is not only exposed to cyber threats on the internet
but also some JSF partner countries believe that it transmits too much operational data to the US
The ALIS network also provides the US with active control over the F-35s stationed in partner countries by distributing updates and patches of both internal and external F-35 software
and In the future, ALIS could also be used by the US as a Trojan horse to import malicious software into F-35s and paralyze them on the software side
Last edited:
WarDaddy97
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Old news. Pentagon already drafted plans on how to continue with program without Turkish contribution. The Turks have been removed from production line and we’re producing F35. Poland just signed almost 5 billion dollar contract.
Btw, USA won’t reimburse a penny. Remember this post
Btw, USA won’t reimburse a penny. Remember this post
Last edited:
CAN_TR
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Good, don't forget to send us our invested money back.
US is afraid that Turkey will test F-35's with S-400, which could eventually bust it's capabilities... that would ofc ruin everything.
Israel is not a partner but has more freedom than countries that are involved.
Turkish companies gained a lot of experience, TFX is our future.
US is afraid that Turkey will test F-35's with S-400, which could eventually bust it's capabilities... that would ofc ruin everything.
Israel is not a partner but has more freedom than countries that are involved.
Turkish companies gained a lot of experience, TFX is our future.
Humble Analyst
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Turkey is on the same path as various other Muslim countries are. The writing on the wall is clear.
Maybe if lucky will get back in some other kind, say GMO vegetable oil
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