Turkey’s last offer to Israel: Three options on table

[Jigs]

Not so difficult. Erdogan can offer his personal apology for helping create the mess. Then Israel could apologize for being unprepared and so using deadly force as a last resort.

No, not really. You just aren't presenting events as they actually occurred, nor have a grasp of law, that's all.

First of all we don't apologize for no reason. Be it political or not.

Second did Israel try anything else ?No. They supposedly warned them that they would be taken over in international waters. Since the blockade is illegal and against Human rights it makes perfect sense not to listen as the aid was not for Israel but for Gaza. There was actually no need to Israel to get involved at all but since in their own mind they are in control of everything they have to stick their nose in affairs they themselves fail to accomplish (Like provide the required amount of aid to Gaza).

 

[gambit]

First of all we don't apologize for no reason. Be it political or not.

Second did Israel try anything else ?No. They supposedly warned them that they would be taken over in international waters. Since the blockade is illegal and against Human rights it makes perfect sense not to listen as the aid was not for Israel but for Gaza. There was actually no need to Israel to get involved at all but since in their own mind they are in control of everything they have to stick their nose in affairs they themselves fail to accomplish (Like provide the required amount of aid to Gaza).

Debunked. The blockade is legal. No reputable maritime law experts support you.

 

[blain2]

Gambit,

Your claim is on even flimsier grounds. Israel is the occupier, which is an illegality in the first place. The fact that in the past you have used the crutch of them being the occupying maritime force and thus having the right to impose the blockade is a non-starter. Had this maritime zone been a theater where no one else was laying a claim to, then Israelis could have made the stand on the basis of non-contention and their right to self-protection. The International community and the UN accept Gaza and its SLOC as an area illegally under the occupation of Israel. This is the basis of illegality, you can't selectively impose legality over these sea lanes.

The international community knows this and understands this well. The issue is simply that of might being right while the principle of it goes to hell.

I am all for Turkey breaking its ties with Israel. The former need to realize that they can't have their cake and eat it too. With a recent pat on the back by Obama, I do not see Israelis in the mood for any apologies, so its best for Turkey to tread its own path.

 

[gambit]

Gambit,

Your claim is on even flimsier grounds. Israel is the occupier. Which is an illegality in the first place. The fact that in the past you have used the crutch of them being the occupying maritime force and thus having the right to impose the blockade is a non-starter.

The international community knows this and understands this well. The issue is simply that of might being right while the principle of it goes to hell.

I am all for Turkey breaking its ties with Israel. The former need to realize that they can't have their cake and eat it too. With a recent pat on the back by Obama, I do not see Israelis in the mood for apologizing, so its best for Turkey to tread its own path.

Israel withdrew from Gaza back in '05 and there was no blockade then. Please show the readers a source that said Israel went back into Gaza as an occupying force. Temporary incursions or border presence does not qualify as an 'occupation'.

 

[Kompromat]

Debunked. The blockade is legal. No reputable maritime law experts support you.

No Humanitarian Organization or United Nations will Support you on your claim.

UN High Commissioner: Gaza blockade is illegal

 

[gambit]

No Humanitarian Organization or United Nations will Support you on your claim.

UN High Commissioner: Gaza blockade is illegal

She even had a caveat...

She said that even if the blockade is proven legal under international law, Israel's military operation against the flotilla on Monday must be analysed from the perspective of Israel's obligation to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza.

In other words, she made a tacit concession that the issue is not so clear cut.

"International humanitarian law prohibits starvation of civilians as a method of warfare and ... it is also prohibited to impose collective punishment on civilians."

Gaza is not being starved. We can legitimately criticize Israel for the list of 'contraband' and we should, but the comish is wrong in that the blockade is SOLELY to punish civilians. Funny that she made no mention of why there was no blockade in the first place.

 

[blain2]

Israel withdrew from Gaza back in '05 and there was no blockade then. Please show the readers a source that said Israel went back into Gaza as an occupying force. Temporary incursions or border presence does not qualify as an 'occupation'.

Great point which leads me to ask what are the grounds for intercepting cargo headed for a "free" territory? Secondly, how can Israel carry on with this unilaterally imposed embargo of Gaza?

The initial point is that Israel enters, leaves Gaza as and when it wants to like any occupation force. It occupies the masses by controlling even the basics into the blockaded territory.

Had we (you and I alike) been on the receiving end, what Israel does would look more like running a concentration camp, however I'd think that any sane Israeli would like to think of himself and his country as being better than the Nazis. Yet allowing similar behaviour is outright shameful. This is beyond nationalism and religion. Its a question of basic human decency.

 

[gambit]

Great point which leads me to ask what are the grounds for intercepting cargo headed for a "free" territory?

When that territory is being used to wage a war.

Secondly, how can Israel carry on with this unilaterally imposed embargo of Gaza?

If you are asking what justification is there, we can look at the Hamas rockets.

The initial point is that Israel enters, leaves Gaza as and when it wants to like any occupation force. It occupies the masses by controlling even the basics into the blockaded territory.

This is what I expected. Failure to produce a source that has Israel reentered Gaza as an occupation force in the traditional sense, meaning troops and administrative authority, the context of 'occupation' and 'occupier' must be expanded. Anyway...The blockade and inspections of goods came from the need to bleed Hamas of weapons. Yes...We must continually pressure Israel to assess the list of contraband to remove items that even though may have dual use, their non-military utility and humanitarian value outweighs their potential for military uses. But this still does not negate the fact that once Israel withdrew from Gaza and ceded control to an expectant competent authority, once that authority decided to use Gaza as a war component, Israel has the right to retaliate and a blockade is a legitimate method.

Had we (you and I alike) been on the receiving end, what Israel does would look more like running a concentration camp, however I'd think that any sane Israeli would like to think of himself and his country as being better than the Nazis. Yet allowing similar behaviour is outright shameful. This is beyond nationalism and religion. Its a question of basic human decency.

Then all we have to do is pressure Hamas to stop its rocket attacks against Israel. Remember, Israel ceded controls with an expectation that the 'land for peace' swap will produce peace, at least from Gaza. That did not pan out. Why not? Does Hamas have no relevance in this?

 

[Jigs]

The production of Qassams began in September 2001 following the outbreak of the Second Intifada. The first Qassam to be launched was the Qassam-1, fired on October 2001, with a maximum range of 3 kilometers (2 mi) to 4.5 kilometers (3 mi). February 10, 2002 was the first time Palestinians launched rockets into Israel, rather than at Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip. One of the rockets landed in Kibbutz Saad. A Qassam first hit an Israeli city on March 5, 2002 when two rockets struck the southern city of Sderot. Some rockets have hit as far as the edge of Ashkelon. The total number of Qassam rockets launched exceeded 1,000 by June 9, 2006. During the year 2006 alone, more than 1,000 rockets were launched. In 2008, 1750 rockets were launched. By the end of December 2008, a total of 15 people had been killed by Qassam rockets since attacks began in 2001

"Our goals are minimalistic and defensive"


Let us take a look.


Gaza War
December 27, 2008 (2008-12-27) – January 18, 2009

Israeli Casualties 3 civilians and 10 soldiers(Note 4 died by friendly fire)

Palistine Casualties 1417 total. 236 terrorists, 926 civilians,116 women, 313 children.

 

[gambit]

The production of Qassams began in September 2001 following the outbreak of the Second Intifada.

<snipped>

Can you explain what happened after Israel's withdrawal back in '05 that began the rocket attacks?

 

[blain2]

Can you explain what happened after Israel's withdrawal back in '05 that began the rocket attacks?

Gambit,

Lets think through this. Are there Israeli settlements on Palestinian lands or not? Are the Israelis not constantly building on Palestinians lands? This has gone on for the better part of last 15+ years. Hamas' point is a simple one. If Israelis keep on encroaching on Palestinian land, then they are invading the Palestinian territory and the UN allows the Palestinians the right of self defence. This is the situation at its very basic, and one that is often lost on most people (specially the pro-Israeli side).

The rockets were one way for the Palestinians to hit back at the Israeli population centers when the Israelis ingressed into recognized Palestinian territories or the settlements were targeted for being imposed on the Palestinian lands.

The issue around the rocket fire is one of the chicken or the egg. However the reality is that Israelis are sitting on considerable occupied land and this encroachment is increasing by the day. The option available to Palestinians is to lay down and let Israelis take whatever they want to (given their penchant, they deserve it all and the Palestinians deserve nothing), or stand and fight for what little is left of their land.

Here is a graphical representation of my point.
http://www.arabnewsblog.net/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/024fd_israel-palestine-map.jpg
Had the Israelis not carried on with this encroachment, the issue of rocket fire would not have come up. This is the sad reality of the situation.

 

[gambit]

Gambit,

Lets think through this. Are there Israeli settlements on Palestinian lands or not? Are the Israelis not constantly building on Palestinians lands? This has gone on for the better part of last 15+ years. Hamas' point is a simple one. If Israelis keep on encroaching on Palestinian land, then they are invading the Palestinian territory and the UN allows the Palestinians the right of self defence. This is the situation at its very basic, and one that is often lost on most people (specially the pro-Israeli side).

The rockets were one way for the Palestinians to hit back at the Israeli population centers when the Israelis ingressed into recognized Palestinian territories or the settlements were targeted for being imposed on the Palestinian lands.

The issue around the rocket fire is one of the chicken or the egg. However the reality is that Israelis are sitting on considerable occupied land and this encroachment is increasing by the day. The option available to Palestinians is to lay down and let Israelis take whatever they want to (given their penchant, they deserve it all and the Palestinians deserve nothing), or stand and fight for what little is left of their land.

Here is a graphical representation of my point.
http://www.arabnewsblog.net/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/024fd_israel-palestine-map.jpg
Had the Israelis not carried on with this encroachment, the issue of rocket fire would not have come up. This is the sad reality of the situation.

Then you cannot assert that the Gaza naval blockade is in anyway 'illegal'. If Hamas is fully justified in using Gaza as a war component, then from a military perspective, any retaliatory tactic against THAT component is also justified.

Israel had a similar 'land for peace' deal with Egypt and a competent authority enforced its own burden of that deal despite the assassination of Sadat, the leader who agreed to that deal. Neither Hamas nor Hezbollah was recognized by 'the international community'. The Palestinian Authority is. So Israel ceded the Gaza territory to really no one.

 

[Jigs]

Can you explain what happened after Israel's withdrawal back in '05 that began the rocket attacks?

Quoting a small part of what i posted doesn't mean you can ignore the rest. During the ceasefire no rockets were fired. The ceasefire was broken by Israel and Hamas rocket attacks increased which resulted in a mass bombing of Gaza (with use of illegal weapons in populated areas Israel confirmed this) resulting in a 5:1 civil/terror kill ratio more then 300 children died too. While Hamas rockets resulted in 3 Israeli civilian deaths.

Tell me would you be ok with Turkey setting up a DMZ type border in Iraq soil and launching large scale bombings of the PKK in Kurdish populated areas. Or blockading that portion of Iraq ? We had thousands of Turks killed at the hands of terrorists. That doesn't mean we can invade Iraq and bomb highly populated areas. Hell you know what happened when we did operation sun in 2008 every major power along with the U.S. said we needed to end this now and get out and this isn't good.

You just don't get it. You don't get to do whatever the hell you want because some rockets hit your territory . It doesn't give you the right to blockade all these people and then tell them your doing it so your own are not hurt. It doesn't give you the right to then raid ships coming into you so called blockade. Or said assassins with fake passports to murder suspected people that are against your country. Then not confirming and denying when the U.N. or other nations ask like your above them in these affairs. Along with NPT affairs.

Anyway i am out this is getting pointless. Best we end ties with this crazy state. Turkey is above Israel in the area of the treatment of humans.

Dispute over occupation status

Under international law there are certain laws of war governing military occupation, including the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 and the Fourth Geneva Convention. The UN, Human Rights Watch and many other international bodies and NGOs consider Israel to be the occupying power of the Gaza Strip as Israel controls Gaza's airspace and territorial waters, and does not allow the movement or goods in or out of Gaza by air or sea. Israel states that Gaza is no longer occupied, inasmuch as Israel does not exercise effective control or authority over any land or institutions in the Gaza Strip. Foreign Affairs Minister of Israel Tzipi Livni stated in January, 2008: &#8220;Israel got out of Gaza. It dismantled its settlements there. No Israeli soldiers were left there after the disengagement.&#8221;

wiki

 

[gambit]

Quoting a small part of what i posted doesn't mean you can ignore the rest.

In the chain of human events, NOTHING is uncaused. You cherry picked one event in the middle of the chain to try to portray Hamas as the innocent party forced into a situation not of its own creation. The naval blockade by Israel and the land blockade by Egypt of Gaza is not uncaused. Convenient that you would ignore Egypt's participation in creating and maintaining this so-called 'concentration camp' hyperbole.

 

[gambit]

Turkey is above Israel in the area of the treatment of humans.

Yeah, right...I have been to Turkey. I know better.