Turkey rethinking its place in the world

[xMustiiej70]

OK, this has to be my last discussion with you on this. Our business understanding is on different planes.

The only thing that differentiates Turkey from the other Islamic nations is that it has development without being a primary economy, which means that its exports have maximum composition of value added goods and services. That is what differentiates it from the well developed, Arab countries.

This happened over the years because of the path of putting development above religion was chosen by Ataturk and he is a very revered person even to this day amongst all sections of Turks that I meet up with.

So now with the change in focus from the development oriented market approach and being a strong manufacturing base for EU, and abandoning it in favour or TU or whatever union you may want to create, the first thought that should come to your mind is that the economic growth is only as strong as the market it services. In your own words and given my limited understanding, I will have to agree with you, Turkey will have no benefit creating a trading block with nations surrounding it or in the immediate vicinity. So who will you trade with.

The importance of having a market can be gauged from the fact that even a 5% increase in dispensable income in India gets a cheer from consumables organizations of the world because even if 1 extra pack sells annually to one individual, it is enough to throw the top lines in the air.

So, Turkey cannot exist in the political or the economic environment in isolation or in a vaccum. It needs to exploit its geo-political location or sitting right next to what is today the richest market in the world with deceleration in its own manufacturing. With the increasing religious extremism leanings in its political space, that market amongst other several beneficial factors is just moving that bit away everytime.

However, if the EU breaks. It will be your godsent opportunity. And that is an increasingly possibility. But how much of your present can you bet for an uncertain future?

My 2 Kurus my friend.

beside what you just wrote.
turkey is located on a map..
where everyones dreams about it.
and besides that..
they dont use(eu only) to join eu but they will have full trade partners...
and euro is going to fall..

 

[Solomon2]

i wonder something, israel is tiny country. with a very small population... But israel can see the right in himself to attack a convoy in Sudan, strike to iran, interfare in Turkey's domestic policies.

I know nothing about alleged interference of Israel in Turkey's politics, but the idea that just because a country is small that it is somehow unethical for it to act to protect its citizenry doesn't say good things about your ethics, does it?

No we dont change our direction. the thing happening in Turkey is people discover their historical roots again.

Israel is a zionist country. they take their power from jewish orthadox society.

The Zionist movement has secular nationalist, not religious orthodox, roots and that is still the foundation of its support today. They really don't teach you this stuff in Turkish schools?

zionism is the sickness of jews and judaism. We all know it. everybody knows it but anybody doesnt blame israel with extremism... is this logical?

"Everybody knows it -". Have you never asked yourself if the "everybody" you have in mind is wrong?

And about the people like Solomon. i recommend everybody to leave him alone with his sick mentality and hypocricy.

I don't think the Pakistanis here believe they can do that, Admiral. The country is in such bad shape that they want to rally everyone behind a common enemy as a distraction, just to keep Pakistan together. India is too strong. Afghanistan is America's playground. Iran can stir up trouble in Baluchistan. Jews, Zionists, and Israel are the obvious choice: centuries of history have taught the world that there is no punishment for falsehoods told about Jews, not even at the hands of Israelis.

 

[forcetrip]

But what would any other countries reaction be to a massacre in international waters? I think the overall loser in this whole event will still be turkey because of the points mentioned by deepak. Unfortunate but true.

 

[Solomon2]

Now Lebanon, Tony Badran , June 8, 2010

As the dust begins settling after the Gaza flotilla affair, it has become increasingly clear that Turkey’s ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) resorted in a premeditated way to populist demagoguery during the episode in order to serve narrower political goals.

Populism in the Arab world is second nature and despite its disastrous track record, it never seems to go out of fashion. Non-Arab regional players like Iran have understood this and have cynically used populism to their advantage...

Just as Iran’s Islamic Revolution was expansionist by definition, the AKP’s “neo-Ottomanism” also posits a Turkish-dominated realm. As the potential for Iranian-Turkish competition grows and the Levant once again assumes its historical function as a contested space between more powerful nations vying for regional influence, the Arab states are becoming ever more secondary, their populations easily manipulated by regional populist leaders like Erdogan.

Tony Badran is a research fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.

To read more: Lebanon news - NOW Lebanon -Erdogan makes turkeys of the Arabs
Only 25% of a given NOW Lebanon article can be republished. For information on republishing rights from NOW Lebanon: Lebanon news - NOW Lebanon

 

[Admiral]

I know nothing about alleged interference of Israel in Turkey's politics, but the idea that just because a country is small that it is somehow unethical for it to act to protect its citizenry doesn't say good things about your ethics, does it?



The Zionist movement has secular nationalist, not religious orthodox, roots and that is still the foundation of its support today. They really don't teach you this stuff in Turkish schools?

"Everybody knows it -". Have you never asked yourself if the "everybody" you have in mind is wrong?

I don't think the Pakistanis here believe they can do that, Admiral. The country is in such bad shape that they want to rally everyone behind a common enemy a distraction, just to keep Pakistan together. India is too strong. Afghanistan is America's playground. Iran can stir up trouble in Baluchistan. Jews, Zionists, and Israel are the obvious choice: centuries of history have taught the world that there is no punishment for falsehoods told about Jews, not even at the hands of Israelis.

Under normal conditions i shouldnt respond your pathetic words but i need to answer with a few words.

You say zionism has a secular-nationalist support. Can i ask something? Do i have right to change my religion and be a Jewish? can i do this if i want? yes, i know thats why i ask you cant be a jew, you born as a jew... So, how can you part your sick nationalism and judaism? please look at the equation, you say it is secular and nationalist but when i ask who the zionists are, you say they are jewish. i repeat, zionism is your sickness... so called secular or not, its roots are orthadox. and the thing you tell me(in fact all the zionists tell it) is one of the most silly things i have ever heard about judaism. i have the old testament and i sometimes read it and i can say that the way you follow is false my mate. if there is one extremist here, thats you, not me. And before blaming PM Erdogan, look at the mirror and tell me something about your Liberman...

i said everybody. yes, but i forgot to add. ''everybody who has conscience to see and everybody who has brains to think and define''. so you are out of this group. sorry...

And in your final words, you blink us and show the situation in ME. you say its our theatre... we play our own game. Before mentioning about afghanistan, why dont you come a little bit close to Zion and take a look at the lebonan ''draw''? (a small jest for you, we all know it was a defeat... )

in afghanistan, coalition is losing( i hope they dont lose, if they lose it will be awfull for all of us.), last year you decleared that Pakistan may be a failed state in 6 months but it is still alive and thanks God it will endure and overcome its all problems. May be you exaggerate everything, just like you exaggerate your own strenght?

Dear Solomon, i dont know your job or your age. but please try to see the big picture. i didnt vote Erdogan. i can consider myself as a ''leftist'' but here we see something. Israel doesnt want Turkey to be a global gamer. but it is impossible. people of this country earned their selftrust once more and arabic half island will be Turkey's backyard- back garden once more. You have been in these lands for 60+ years and it is a very short time for the lifetime of a country. and we already started to criticise the future of israel. lets wait and see what will happen. i think this 60 years made you think that that country will exist there for forever with its present policies.

My friend, jewish and turk is inseperable. we are close relatives. we have been living together for centuries. but i cant bear the lies of your so called secular natioalists.

And i advice you to look at the mirror before you blame us with extremism. put your secular-nationalist-zionist policies to a side, and put our present policies to another side. please compare them. if you cant reach to my point, please come back to this topic and read the lines i wrote about ''everybody''

 

[Solomon2]

Can i ask something? Do i have right to change my religion and be a Jewish?

I would like to answer you, but this appears to be a forbidden topic at PDF. If we pursue it, the mods may delete the entire thread.

i said everybody. yes, but i forgot to add. ''everybody who has conscience to see and everybody who has brains to think and define''

You could have just said, "No."

last year you decleared that Pakistan may be a failed state in 6 months

I don't recall making any such statement. In the spring of last year Pakistan decided to oppose the Taliban, rather than continue to yield to it.

May be you exaggerate everything, just like you exaggerate your own strenght?

Do I not back up statements of fact with references?

people of this country earned their selftrust once more and arabic half island will be Turkey's backyard- back garden once more.

You mean Turks have caught the Imperial Disease once more?

My friend, jewish and turk is inseperable. we are close relatives. we have been living together for centuries. but i cant bear the lies of your so called secular natioalists.

Lies, or truths? Was it not the desire of Ottoman Caliphs themselves to deed Palestine to the Jews if the Empire failed? They probably knew that without Turks the Jews had no real defense against the Arabs, nor did they want a united Arab Empire to replace an Ottoman one.

And i advice you to look at the mirror before you blame us with extremism. put your secular-nationalist-zionist policies to a side, and put our present policies to another side.

Why not start a list yourself?

 

[Admiral]

I would like to answer you, but this appears to be a forbidden topic at PDF. If we pursue it, the mods may delete the entire thread.

You could have just said, "No."

I don't recall making any such statement. In the spring of last year Pakistan decided to oppose the Taliban, rather than continue to yield to it.

Do I not back up statements of fact with references?

You mean Turks have caught the Imperial Disease once more?

Lies, or truths? Was it not the desire of Ottoman Caliphs themselves to deed Palestine to the Jews if the Empire failed? They probably knew that without Turks the Jews had no real defense against the Arabs, nor did they want a united Arab Empire to replace an Ottoman one.

Why not start a list yourself?

Dog barks but the caravan goes on...

 

[Solomon2]

Dog barks but the caravan goes on...

Until the leader changes direction, maybe when he can't hear himself think and can only hear the barking dogs.

 

[Marxist]

The New Wannabe Ottomans

A Turkish Islamic group -- the "Humanitarian Relief Foundation," often associated by Western intelligence agencies with terrorist sponsorship -- orchestrated the recent Gaza flotilla. It was hoping for the sort of violent, well-publicized confrontation with the Israeli navy that later followed.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, immediately issued veiled threats to Israel. He then badgered the United States, Turkey's NATO patron ally, to condemn the Israeli interdiction.

While the world piled on in its criticism of Israel, there was also a sort of stunned silence over the actions of Turkey, without whose help the blockade-running flotilla would never have left a Turkish port.

Erdogan's hysterics emphasized the Islamic transformation of a once secular Turkey that has been going on for well over a decade. In 2003, Turkey forbade passage to U.S. troops in their efforts to remove Saddam Hussein from Iraq. State-run Turkish television instead aired virulent anti-American dramas, like "Valley of the Wolves," in which our soldiers appear as little more than blood-crazed killers who dismember poor Iraqi civilians.

Lately, Turkey has reached out to Iran and Syria. Both habitually sponsor Mideast terrorist groups and have aided anti-American insurgents in Iraq. Turkey and Brazil recently offered to monitor Iran's nuclear program, sidestepping American and European efforts to step up sanctions to stop Teheran's plans for a bomb.

Erdogan's anti-Israel attacks often match those of his newfound friends, Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Hezbollah's Hasan Nasrallah. Former Turkish Prime Minister Necmettin Erbakan, remember, once blamed the Jews for starting the Crusades, and for instigating World War I to create Israel. He also described them as a "disease" that needed to be eradicated.

What is behind the Turkish metamorphosis from a staunch U.S. ally, NATO member and quasi-European state into a sponsor of Hamas, ally of theocratic Iran and fellow traveler with terrorist-sponsoring Syria?

The Cold War is over. Turkey no longer guards the southeastern flank of Europe from the advance of Soviet communism, lessening its importance within NATO. Its Anatolian Muslim population grows, while more secular European and Aegean Turks have lost influence. Turkey senses a growing distance between Tel Aviv and Washington, and thus an opportunity to step into the gulf to unite Muslims against Israel and win influence in the Arab world.

Erdogan clearly identifies more with the old transnational Ottoman sultanate than with Kemal Ataturk's modern, secular and Western nation-state. Indeed, he has bragged that he is a grandson of the Ottomans and announced that Turkey's new goal was to restore the might of the Ottoman Empire.

And so, like the theocratic Ottomans of old, Erdogan's Islamic Turkey fancies itself a window on the West, absorbing technology and expertise from Europe and the United States in order to empower and unite the more spiritually pure Muslims across national boundaries.

Of course, Turkey tolerates no criticism about its own violations of human rights in suppressing its Kurdish population. It lectures Israel about occupied land but is silent about its sponsorship of the Turkish absorption of much of Greek Cyprus. It laments a divided Jerusalem but says nothing about the segregation of Nicosia.

Erdogan often accuses Israel of human rights violations, but to this day no Turkish government has ever acknowledged culpability for the genocide of the Armenians. Far from it: Not long ago, Erdogan threatened to deport Armenians from Turkish soil.

Where and how does all this end?

Turkey's new ambitions and ethnic and religious chauvinism are antithetical to its NATO membership. The United States should not be treaty-bound to defend a de facto ally of Iran or Syria, which are both eager to obtain nuclear weapons. European countries foresaw the problem when they denied Turkey membership in the now fragile European Union, fearful that Anatolian Islamists would have unfettered transit across European borders.

In response, the United States should make contingency plans to relocate from its huge Air Force base at Incirlik -- a facility that Turkey has in the past threatened to close. We should brace for new troubles in the Aegean region and Cyprus, as a bankrupt and often anti-American Greece is now alienated from both the United States and northern Europe -- and yet increasingly vulnerable to a return of Ottoman regional ambitions.

Just as the Shah of Iran's pro-Western, secular transformation failed and led to the Ayatollah Khomeini's anti-Western Islamic revolution, we are seeing something similar in Erdogan's efforts to turn Ataturk's Turkey back into the theocratic sultanate that ran the Eastern Mediterranean for more than three centuries.

If Erdogan is intent on a suicidal reinvention of Turkey into a pale imitation of Ottoman hegemony, we can at least take steps to ensure that it will be his mess -- and none of our own.

RealClearPolitics - The New Wannabe Ottomans

 

[Admiral]

Until the leader changes direction, maybe when he can't hear himself think and can only hear the barking dogs.

Didnt surprised at all. here is what you are democracy is democracy when the ones you want are elected, but it is extremism when someone you cant use comes to charge... contradiction and hypocricy.... this is your character... i advice you to stop barking Solomon.

 

[Solomon2]

democracy is democracy when the ones you want are elected, but it is extremism when someone you cant use comes to charge.

I was thinking of law vs. populism. A statesman keeps in mind the law as well as the opinion of the populace. Ergodan made a choice to ignore the law - or, at best, read it so selectively that the victims of a crime are blamed for defending themselves from death, kidnaping, and disfigurement.

 

[Admiral]

I was thinking of law vs. populism. A statesman keeps in mind the law as well as the opinion of the populace. Ergodan made a choice to ignore the law - or, at best, read it so selectively that the victims of a crime are blamed for defending themselves from death, kidnaping, and disfigurement.

For God's sake Solomon... please leave this thread. which law do you mention of ? You speak of law, what about to attack boats in international waters? which law enables israel, gives it this right to attack those boats in open seas, 70 miles far from Gaza coast?
You talk about law and populism. i think liberman or netenyahu does the best of populism in this case. they were using iran threat in order to increase their popularity. now they have another tool, ''Turkey''. according to a public survey in israel, the %78 of the people see Turkey as a prime enemy. i think this helps liberman or netenyahu too much...
you speak of law and justice. go on, please go on. what is next? human rights? yes, israel is the most moral country in the world...

You constantly copy and paste somethings here. do you want me to do the same for the articles i may acquire from Jewish newspaper ''Haaretz'' ?

 

[TechLahore]

People have been saying that for thousands of years, among them the Pharaohs, the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Romans, the Crusaders, and the Nazis. Why not ask them for details?

Are you talking about the state of Israel or the jewish people. They are two different things you know.

 

[M8R]

It's much like World War II.In the sense that Germany sank hospital and aid vessel whipping other nations that helped mobilize the anti-Axis forces which included Indian Forces as well (Pakistan did not exist back then).Nice work Israel. You have become the Nazis that you constantly talk about to justify all the ***** you pull.

 

[Solomon2]

You speak of law, what about to attack boats in international waters? which law enables israel, gives it this right to attack those boats in open seas, 70 miles far from Gaza coast?

The Israelis attacked not the boats, but the militants who assaulted the Israeli boarding party which had already demonstrated peaceful intent, all activity and conduct completely lawful under the San Remo convention.

You talk about law and populism. i think liberman or netenyahu does the best of populism in this case. they were using iran threat in order to increase their popularity.

Would they not be negligent in their duties if they did not pay attention to the activities of a state whose leaders express their desire for the destruction of the Jewish State and all the Jews within?

now they have another tool, ''Turkey''. according to a public survey in israel, the %78 of the people see Turkey as a prime enemy.

Is it their fault that Erdogan and yourself (not Turkey; this is very much an executive action) desire to counted as supporting Israel's enemies?

you speak of law and justice. go on, please go on. what is next? human rights? yes, israel is the most moral country in the world...

Why do you not support the Israelis for battling the militants who highjacked the vessel and assaulted them in the cause of supporting the oppressive terrorist group Hamas?

do you want me to do the same for the articles i may acquire from Jewish newspaper ''Haaretz'' ?

I post stuff that tends to be overlooked. Nobody overlooks anti-Israel stuff here, yes?

For God's sake Solomon... please leave this thread.

I can't both answer your questions and leave the Forum, can I?