Turkey insists on demilitarization of islands

[A.P. Richelieu]

It is illegal to militarize the Meis island according to the laws, if you look at a map you will se how close this island is to Turkiye just 2km.

Which laws says it is illegal?
The 1923 Treaty of Lausanne does not as far as I can see.

 

[Dai Toruko]

Which laws says it is illegal?
The 1923 Treaty of Lausanne does not as far as I can see.

Article 13 of the Laussane Treaty stipulated the modalities of the demilitarization for the islands of Lesvos, Chios, Samos, and Ikaria. It imposed certain restrictions related to the presence of military forces and establishment of fortifications which Greece undertook as a contractual obligation to observe stemming from this Treaty.

The Convention of the Turkish Straits annexed to the Laussanne Treaty further defined the demilitarized status of the islands of Lemnos and Samothrace. It stipulated a stricter regime for these islands, due to their vital importance to the security of Turkey by virtue of their close proximity to the Turkish Straits.

1947 Paris Peace Treaty: The demilitarized status of Eastern Aegean Islands was once again confirmed in 1947 long after the Lausanne Treaty. The "Dodecanese Islands" namely Stampalia, Rhodes, Calki, Scarpanto, Casos, Piscopis, Nisiros, Calimnos, Leros, Patmos, Lipsos, Symi, Cos and Castellorizo were ceded to Greece on the explicit condition that they must remain demilitarized.

The above mentioned international treaties which are in force and thus binding upon Greece strictly forbid the militarization of Eastern Aegean Islands and bring legal obligations and responsibilities to Greece.

 

[Foinikas]

1947 Paris Peace Treaty: The demilitarized status of Eastern Aegean Islands was once again confirmed in 1947 long after the Lausanne Treaty. The "Dodecanese Islands" namely Stampalia, Rhodes, Calki, Scarpanto, Casos, Piscopis, Nisiros, Calimnos, Leros, Patmos, Lipsos, Symi, Cos and Castellorizo were ceded to Greece on the explicit condition that they must remain demilitarized.

The above mentioned international treaties which are in force and thus binding upon Greece strictly forbid the militarization of Eastern Aegean Islands and bring legal obligations and responsibilities to Greece.

The Status of the Islands of the South-Eastern Aegean (the Dodecanese)

The Dodecanese islands were ceded to Greece in full sovereignty by the Paris Peace Treaty between Italy and the Allies in April 1947. The provisions of this Treaty provided for the demilitarization of these islands: “The above islands shall be demilitarized and shall remain so”. There is a National Guard presence on the Dodecanese islands, which has been declared in accordance with CFE provisions.

With regard to Turkish claims on the demilitarization of the Dodecanese islands, it should be noted that:

• Turkey is not a signatory state to this Treaty, which therefore constitutes a "res inter alios acta" for Turkey; i.e., an issue pertaining to others. According to Article 34 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, a treaty does not create obligations or rights for third countries.

• The demilitarized status of the Dodecanese islands was imposed after the decisive intervention of the Soviet Union and echoes Moscow’s political intentions at that point in time. It should, however, be noted that demilitarized status lost its raison d’être with the creation of NATO and the Warsaw Pact, as incompatible with countries’ participation in military alliances. Against this backdrop, demilitarized status ceased to apply to the Italian islands of Pantelaria, Lampedusa, Lampione and Linosa, as well as to West Germany on the one hand and Bulgaria, Romania, East Germany, Hungary and Finland on the other.

It should be stressed that Greece, just like any other country in the world, has never ceded its natural right of defense in the event of a threat to its islands or any other part of its territory, especially since there has been sufficient proof over the past decades that Turkey is acting in an inconsistent manner and in violation of the United Nations Charter.

 

[Oublious]

The Status of the Islands of the South-Eastern Aegean (the Dodecanese)

The Dodecanese islands were ceded to Greece in full sovereignty by the Paris Peace Treaty between Italy and the Allies in April 1947. The provisions of this Treaty provided for the demilitarization of these islands: “The above islands shall be demilitarized and shall remain so”. There is a National Guard presence on the Dodecanese islands, which has been declared in accordance with CFE provisions.

With regard to Turkish claims on the demilitarization of the Dodecanese islands, it should be noted that:

• Turkey is not a signatory state to this Treaty, which therefore constitutes a "res inter alios acta" for Turkey; i.e., an issue pertaining to others. According to Article 34 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, a treaty does not create obligations or rights for third countries.

• The demilitarized status of the Dodecanese islands was imposed after the decisive intervention of the Soviet Union and echoes Moscow’s political intentions at that point in time. It should, however, be noted that demilitarized status lost its raison d’être with the creation of NATO and the Warsaw Pact, as incompatible with countries’ participation in military alliances. Against this backdrop, demilitarized status ceased to apply to the Italian islands of Pantelaria, Lampedusa, Lampione and Linosa, as well as to West Germany on the one hand and Bulgaria, Romania, East Germany, Hungary and Finland on the other.

It should be stressed that Greece, just like any other country in the world, has never ceded its natural right of defense in the event of a threat to its islands or any other part of its territory, especially since there has been sufficient proof over the past decades that Turkey is acting in an inconsistent manner and in violation of the United Nations Charter.

BS only what you copy paste, your right to defend doesn't change the subject. You made a agreement and in that agreement ther is no sentence about have to right to millitiarize the islands. You put the 2 treaty in danger.....

 

[Foinikas]

BS only what you copy paste, your right to defend doesn't change the subject. You made a agreement and in that agreement ther is no sentence about have to right to millitiarize the islands. You put the 2 treaty in danger.....

If you cannot understand what the text says,it's not my fault. The Treaty was between Greece and Italy,not Greece and Turkey and the demilitarized status ceased to exist during the Cold War. You suddenly complain about the Treaty of Laussane? Well let's open the Treaty of Sevres. How's that?

 

[Oublious]

If you cannot understand what the text says,it's not my fault. The Treaty was between Greece and Italy,not Greece and Turkey and the demilitarized status ceased to exist during the Cold War. You suddenly complain about the Treaty of Laussane? Well let's open the Treaty of Sevres. How's that?

It was and still bs argument, just demillitarize the islands. Italy was negiotating for both side, so you made it with Turkey a treaty. Stop talking bs! If you have the power for Sevres come and try.

We will give you pressure time by time.

 

[Foinikas]

It was and still bs argument, just demillitarize the islands. Italy was negiotating for both side, so you made it with Turkey a treaty. Stop talking bs! If you have the power for Sevres come and try.

We will give you pressure time by time.

Why? Do you feel threatened by us? Do you think we will invade or something?

Give us no reason to keep the garrisons there and we will demilitarize them.

 

[ghazi52]

 

[Foinikas]

View attachment 817999

What?

 

[dBSPL]

Which laws says it is illegal?
The 1923 Treaty of Lausanne does not as far as I can see.

The legal instruments setting up a demilitarized status for the Eastern Aegean Islands can be summarized from an historical perspective as follows :

a) 1913 Treaty of London : The future of the Eastern Aegean Islands have been left to the decision of Six Powers in Article 5 of the Treaty of London.

b) 1914 Decision of Six Powers: The islands of Lemnos, Samothrace, Lesvos, Chios, Samos, and Ikaria and others under Greek occupation as of 1914 were ceded to Greece by the 1914 Decision of Six Powers (Great Britain, France, Russia, Germany, Italy and Austria-Hungary) on the condition that they should be kept demilitarized.

c) 1923 Lausanne Peace Treaty: In Article 12 of the Lausanne Peace Treaty the 1914 Decision of Six Powers was confirmed.

Article 13 of the Laussane Treaty stipulated the modalities of the demilitarization for the islands of Lesvos, Chios, Samos, and Ikaria. It imposed certain restrictions related to the presence of military forces and establishment of fortifications which Greece undertook as a contractual obligation to observe stemming from this Treaty.

The Convention of the Turkish Straits annexed to the Laussanne Treaty further defined the demilitarized status of the islands of Lemnos and Samothrace. It stipulated a stricter regime for these islands, due to their vital importance to the security of Turkey by virtue of their close proximity to the Turkish Straits.

d) 1936 Montreux Convention: The Montreux Convention did not bring any change to the demilitarized status of these Islands. With the Protocol annexed to the said Convention, the demilitarized status of the Turkish Straits has been lifted to ensure the security of Turkey. In the Montreux Convention there is no clause regarding the militarization of the islands of Lemnos and Samothrace.

e) 1947 Paris Peace Treaty: The demilitarized status of Eastern Aegean Islands was once again confirmed in 1947 long after the Lausanne Treaty. The "Dodecanese Islands" namely Stampalia, Rhodes, Calki, Scarpanto, Casos, Piscopis, Nisiros, Calimnos, Leros, Patmos, Lipsos, Symi, Cos and Castellorizo were ceded to Greece on the explicit condition that they must remain demilitarized (Annex 6).

The demilitarization of the Eastern Aegean Islands was due to the overriding importance of these islands for Turkey's security. In fact, there is a direct linkage between the possession of sovereignty over those islands and their demilitarized status. Greece, in this respect, cannot unilaterally reverse this status under any pretext.

The above mentioned international treaties which are in force and thus binding upon Greece strictly forbid the militarization of Eastern Aegean Islands and bring legal obligations and responsibilities to Greece.

However, despite the protests of Turkey, Greece has been violating the status of the Eastern Aegean Islands by militarizing them since the 1960's in contravention of her contractual obligations. These illegal acts of Greece have increased considerably over the last years and became a vital dispute between the two countries. It is worthwhile to recall that Turkey's several appeals to Greece to respect the demilitarized status of these Islands have been disregarded so far.

From a mere point of view to respect international law, it should be underlined that Greece also introduced a reservation to the compulsory jurisdiction of International Court of Justice on the matters deriving from military measures concerning her "national security interests" when she accepted the Court’s jurisdiction in 1993. In so doing, Greece aims to prevent a dispute concerning the militarization of the islands to be referred to the International Court of Justice.

 

[dBSPL]

Why? Do you feel threatened by us? Do you think we will invade or something?

TLDR; Yes.

The provisions of the Lausanne agreement (and the relevant Paris, Montreux, Straits agreement) are not open to discussion. Your breach of, or attempt to violate, this agreement; It clearly shows that you are preparing to withdraw from this agreement. Looking back over the past 200 years, we know what that could mean.

The only thing that has been experienced in the region for the last 200 years is Greek expansionism. Still, you are as militarized as Israel today. There is no other state in Europe that spends its budget on arms purchases as much as Greece.

If you want to build trust, you will abide by the agreements we have mutually signed! Otherwise, you will start an arms race that you cannot handle and cause the status of your islands to be opened to international debate. What will protect you will not be more American bases; or French influence in exchange for arms purchases anyway. Climates on this side of the Mediterranean can change very quickly. The stayin alive of the treaties that ended the war in the Aegean Sea, will protect.

Give us no reason to keep the garrisons there and we will demilitarize them.

This might be the dumbest sentence I've ever seen on this forum. Look at the arrogance. Are missile launchers also included in garrisons? Your state accepted these provisions. Maybe there was no choice, because the other six states that made Greece independent decided on the provisions of this agreement. If you are uncomfortable with this, make a call to your state and declare that you will not abide by the agreement. Then maybe we will be afraid of this and disband the 4th army.

 

[dBSPL]

I should add: I am never a supporter of a Turkish-Greek war. On the contrary, the size of the power that can be formed when these two countries come together is such that it can affect the whole world. Prof Dimitri Kitsikis formulated this perfectly in the conditions of the time. May he rest in peace, maybe Turks and Greeks will realize their common potential one day.

 

[Foinikas]

The only thing that has been experienced in the region for the last 200 years is Greek expansionism. Still, you are as militarized as Israel today. There is no other state in Europe that spends its budget on arms purchases as much as Greece.

Would you like to discuss about Turkish expansionism? How the Ottomans started conquering more and more of our lands?
What you call "200 years of expansionism",we call liberation.

The only reason we are militarized like that is that we have an aggressive neighbor like Turkey. Do you think we want to spend all that money for weapons? No.

If you want to build trust, you will abide by the agreements we have mutually signed!

We do abide and I've showed this to you many times but you don't read it out understand it.

Otherwise, you will start an arms race that you cannot handle and cause the status of your islands to be opened to international debate.

It's like listening to Akar now.
First of all,you started arming like crazy the last 10-12 years. Like crazy. Remember MMM-E's "Turkiye is developing 700 military projects". What the f? Istanbul class? TF-2000 class? More submarines? Aircraft carriers? Bayraktar? Akinci? MIUS? TFX-2000? Altay? Ballistic missiles? Armored vehicles? More attack helicopters? What is this?

And you accuse us of an arms race?

The stayin alive of the treaties that ended the war in the Aegean Sea, will protect

Then sign UNCLOS and denounce any claims to our Islands.

This might be the dumbest sentence I've ever seen on this forum. Look at the arrogance. A

Arrogance?? Ok imagine a situation where pre-war Syria claims Hatay province and they start talking about Greater Syria and that this part was Syrian but the Turks stole it and they blame you of not keeping agreements. Do you remove the garrisons from Antakya and Northern Syria?

Meaning when you talk about "Mavi Vatan",you try to bully the Greek Cypriots from drilling in their EEZ,you almost daily violate our air space and fly over Greek islands...FOR DECADES...and after what happened at Imia and when your pilots fly close to diplomatic aircraft carrying Greek politicians to Greek islands...what makes you think that this makes you look like a good neighbor who only wants peace?
How dare you ACCUSE me and Greece in general of arrogance when you yourselves have been violating the agreements themselves by flying over our Islands and air space to the point we have to send jet fighters and engage in mock dogfights?

I should add: I am never a supporter of a Turkish-Greek war. On the contrary, the size of the power that can be formed when these two countries come together is such that it can affect the whole world. Prof Dimitri Kitsikis formulated this perfectly in the conditions of the time. May he rest in peace, maybe Turks and Greeks will realize their common potential one day.

Kitsikis was a Maoist who also had Hertzl as his profile photo on Facebook. I know his bull because one of my best friends was crazy about him and Dugin.