TTs Future Direction?

[Joe Shearer]

Hi,

The chairperson of TT is basically committed to this one forum----. This it---that is why he has taken up this position---and not to meander around every where else.

If you don't have the committment then don't take this position. A 50000 strong membership board deserves better.

@MastanKhan

You obviously feel very strongly about it. But - without seeking to be malicious - what stops ordinary members, you, for instance, from doing what the two should have been doing? How does the formal designation matter in material terms? Why should their lack of initiative cast a pall on all others?

Perhaps there is a case for replacing them, perhaps not. I am not sure that replacing them is going to make the kind of difference that you seem to hope for.

Again, take this as written in the spirit of friendly enquiry.

 

[SQ8]

The problem is as similar to Nawaz Sharif's promises. Its known as a follow up.
As PfPilot puts it, this is still at the end an online forum owned by the main admin who have to do all the maintenance and upkeep.
At the end of the day, they is the one with the most to lose and the rest will always find some other joint to hangout and discuss whatever the heck they want to discuss.
Nobody else has anything else to lose other than pride. Depending on how much you attach importance to it here online, that is how much you will contribute or be interested. If you consider this important then you will continue to troll like an imbecile yet beg the webmaster to let you back in... or will work on an impression. It is still their final call which no one else can burden as much as they do because not many of us pay donations or do the workload of keeping this place running in on the world wide web.

Being a TT meant carrying out certain tasks, now if you cannot carry them out it doesn't meant you are incapable .. it simply means life has other priorities that require your attention. Everybody has that and you must attend them. However, because you are occupied or unable to carry out the duties fully or encourage intellect in the forum, it falls upon you to let it go to someone who shows promise and is enthusiastic even if not so senior or experienced.
As they say, good pilots are not born...they are trained.. the same goes for members.. there are never excellent members from the start unless they have a previous history of online forums. It falls to the other members to take them into their wing..and by that it's not about holding their hands.. its about engaging in colloquial or civil discussions even if you disagree with what they believe in.
Make them used to doing that.

I am incapable of carryng out the above simply because I have lost patience in human beings for various reasons. But there are many others out there who show such abilites but are unable.. or are dismissed because they are "greener" or have less posts. Comparatively.. absolute nincompoops with little IQ go around with "Senior" and "Elite" on their faces as if that is an achievements.

A few months back, I made a fake account.. and made a few very eloquent posts posing as an Indian.. yet disagreeing with their narrative on various things. Suddenly , all these vitriolic "senior" Indians.. and others were civil and prepared to discuss everything logically.
All it took was a removal of what makes them spit out venom.. and they were all civil at the get go. And Im sure I would get the same results from their Pakistani counterparts...Although.. some bigots will not care for the flag.. but that is their opinion and they are entitled to it...as am I on my opinion that they are bigots.

So, in essence.. the structure that was planned.. with Junior TT's being the breeding ground for TT and so on.. has failed due to poor management(and I get my chance to spin my newly acquired management theories). The TT's are the equivalent of doctors in a hospital.. they have their expertise and knowledge.. however, they cant be expected to manage affairs and all that because like the setup of a hospital with Consultants, Registrars and support staff..they cannot understand or be expected to understand everybody's expectations of them. Neither can the moderators help them because they are still in essence Policemen.

What is needed is a management team, a secondary group whose responsibility it looking into articles, forum organization etc.
Webmaster and Awesome cant be expected to do that, neither can be elmo because they are singular people. But an interested group, who want to make creative things happen.. be it from any position, name color or otherwise. These people should be ready to bug the hell out of TT's or Jr TT's to write things. They should collect good posts from good members on a topic and compile them into an article as was done through the efforts of @Elmo. And, these gents should volunteer.. because nobody likes being handed something to do if they aren't getting paid for it... and everybody and anybody can volunteer.

The TT is nothing more than a merit badge that identifies you as someone worth listening to. It doesn't compel you to leave the rest of your life for it nor should it be expected. You dont see the best financial minds spending all their lives working for an NGO.. when they contribute is when the volunteer from the NGO push them, work with them.. bug the hell out of them.
This is a solution that will work, instead of petty politics over electronics "ranks" and positions.. at least that is what I think.

Also, I cannot help out much in this as I would be of little use alone or otherwise.
Moreover, Ive settled for a career in consultancy..and in character my job is to tell you what you already know and give you an idea..along with charging an exorbitant fees for it.. but in my good graces I am sparing the fees.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Oh dear.

How utterly embarrassing.

 

[Arsalan]

As you read the piece below, I would request you think about and offer comments and ideas as to whether TT has a role to play, any kind of role, in such ideas:


Pakistan’s narrative of impotence
By M Bilal Lakhani
Published: June 5, 2013


The writer is a graduate of Columbia University’s Graduate School of Journalism and currently teaches journalism at SZABIST in Karachi

Pakistan is a nation constantly on the brink of a nervous breakdown. Whether it’s a bomb blast in Boston or a hostage situation practically anywhere in the world, the first thought racing through our minds goes something like this: ‘Dear God, please don’t let this be another Pakistani doing something ridiculous that doesn’t represent me’. There is a palpable sense of fear that we have a knack for messing things up, for ourselves and for others. If we were to go into group therapy to treat our nervous breakdown, what treatment would psychologists recommend for a nation that believes it can do nothing right?

The answer to that question is already weaved into the stories we tell others — and ourselves — about Pakistan. We tell our children that Pakistan was once considered an economic role model and Karachi was a city full of lights and life, before our incompetence led to squandering many opportunities to give Pakistan a better future. We tell our children that the British left us an extensive rail network and instead of building and expanding that network, we looted and plundered our own resources. We tell our children that Pakistan previously had an abundant supply of gas as a natural resource and today, we struggle to supply enough gas for the residents of our capital city to cook dinner. In other words, we tell our children an overpowering tale of Pakistan’s impotence. It’s no surprise then that when it comes to results, we receive exactly what we expect from Pakistan: an inability to deliver when and where it matters.

This leads to a very revealing insight: the stories we tell ourselves about Pakistan don’t just define our past, they also shape our future. If we can change the existing narrative around Pakistan, we could influence our future in a meaningful way. Let’s begin this process by asking, beyond impotence, does Pakistan have a story worth telling?

Pakistan does have a gripping narrative beyond the tales of its monumental impotence, but it doesn’t have storytellers that can celebrate the country, without being branded as ‘apologists’. Yes, Pakistan’s problems are real and significant. But so are Pakistan’s achievements, which are overlooked by the country’s storytellers.

Every now and then, a storyteller breaks onto the national stage and changes the way we look at ourselves. Recently, it was the promise of a Naya Pakistan that electrified the nation. It wasn’t a specific policy proposal that inspired the nation. It was the promise of a new narrative about Pakistan that encouraged a tsunami of young and first-time voters to show up at polling stations around the country. Without changing anything on the ground, one gifted storyteller managed to lift the national mood by promising a new narrative around Pakistan. This is a vivid example of the power of storytelling and how it can influence outcomes in the real world.

The power of storytelling can be used to influence the destiny of a nation. By being more strategic about the stories we choose to tell about Pakistan, we can reimagine the future of the country. We can transform Pakistan’s story not by eliminating negative stories currently etched onto our national narrative but by introducing more positive stories to balance our national conversation. This will automatically transform the meaning of the negative stories currently populating our national narrative. Ultimately, how we interpret reality will matter more than reality itself.

In many ways, Pakistan is like the family that avoids going to expensive restaurants and stores because we’re certain that our children will break something — even if they aren’t as mischievous as we imagine them to be. We’re a nation that settles for less because we believe we can’t achieve more. This vicious cycle can and should be broken by the new government.

As a reality check, it’s important to note that post-modernist buzzwords like ‘storytelling’ and ‘positive thinking’ can’t solve Pakistan’s real problems by themselves. But they can significantly enhance our capacity to solve problems by empowering us with genuine confidence in our approach to challenges. In fact, Pakistan could turn its biggest weakness into a strength by using its crippling impotence as a starting point for a great turnaround story. After all, behind every great nation, there is always a great turnaround story.

You suggest TT to be the motivational factor here? To try and induce some optimism?

Actually, i think the problem have been that in the past few years, we, all of us, really didn't had anything good to talk about and talking about bad need some guts and eventually people do get fed up..
This is essentially a defense forum, although we do cover almost every thing from economics to politics and even general chit chat, sports, photography and also fashion and trends, still, it is DEFENCE.pk
what i feel is that with nothing happening at all that can be termed good or progressive for the nation in this one sector have badly effected to mood and approach of members, specially the senior ones as they were the guys who almost advocated the the promise and potential this country have. Once it all started going down (last 5 years if i may say) everyone find it hard to stick to there optimism.

All said, i we people must get back to our job. I wish (not high hopes though) that the new government can bring up the overall morale of country and we will all see its effects on this forum as well.

(it is quite difficult to accept the dead slow pace of F-16 MLU (i just posted on that in as positive way as one can). to acknowledge the SD-10 integration issues and lack of confirmation from PAF, the SAAB destruction and how it was kept hidden, the lack of funds for Navy to get the much needed hardware. However we must try to keep the forum alive and hope that the new gov do something practical to changing the mentality of people of Pakistan)

 

[muse]

The purpose of the thread was to discover or become aware of what senior thought TT OUGHT to be about -- as for the article Pakistan's Narrative of Impotence" , again the purpose was again to challenge the author's premises.

But getting back to WHY the original question of "OUGHT" was posed at all - -- We are pretty comfortable with ourselves, and that bothers me - I think when we are comfortable, we don't really the kind of drive, the kind of urgency and creativity I think we should promote -- I think we are becoming stale ---- The "OUGHT" is, to my thinking, super important, if we pursue it and refine, it will allow us to give our forum members something to aspire to, something to build -- that's where I'm coming from, looking for energy, creativity, renewal

 

[Argus Panoptes]

I have the comments above with great interest, and I look forward to something fruitful coming out of this discussion.

One point I wish to add for consideration is that quite often, the discussion are biased according to the wishes of those driving them, to the point of being self-defeating. Examples include the many military threads where criticism of certain topics is not tolerated, PTI and PMLN threads specially prior to the elections where blind support is the rule rather than the exception regardless of the issue at hand, and totally fantastic threads about economic progress and untold mineral wealth without any real substance. Of course add in the inevitable Indo-Pak rivalry come up as a virtual guarantee for derailing any thread regardless of its biases, and we have a complete mess where a sane discussion becomes almost impossible. Such an environment keeps good members participate infrequently at best, and makes them leave at worst.

The end result is that most (not all) leading members come across as plying certain agendas rather than being accurate, truthful and interesting, making this forum appear as if it is just a cacophony of competing shrieking mouthpieces rather than anything worthwhile.

It is for the administration and leading members to decide whether they are happy with this situation to continue, which is perfectly fine by me, or of not, how to best change this state of affairs, for it is not my place to say what needs to be done.


@Aeronaut @Awesome @nuclearpak or any mod please approve this post.

 

[Jango]

... for it is not my place to say what needs to be done.

If you've got any suggestions, fire away. We are all ears.

All sort of help is welcome!

 

[Argus Panoptes]

If you've got any suggestions, fire away. We are all ears.

All sort of help is welcome!

The only thing I can do is to try and set an example for good participation. I just contribute as best as I can, when and where I can. The rest is up to the forum and its members.

 

[araz]

My only comment is that I strongly feel that TT as it stands or sits( better still lies down!!!) needs to be dissolved. Whatever needs to be writtten will always be written and communication amongst senior memebrs via email will result in exchange of personal views. I dont think we need to have elites on the forum.Lets all be people who can contribute as individuals or as groups.
Araz

 

[dbc]

A simple suggestion if I may, this place needs a lot of adult supervision. Please consider giving TT members moderation rights, this way they can help keep the discussion organized, civil and informative.

 

[Safriz]

I agree....
TT must be given some if not full moderation rights..
PDF does need lots more supervision than the small number of moderators can give without getting themselves divorced...

 

[MastanKhan]

My only comment is that I strongly feel that TT as it stands or sits( better still lies down!!!) needs to be dissolved. Whatever needs to be writtten will always be written and communication amongst senior memebrs via email will result in exchange of personal views. I dont think we need to have elites on the forum.Lets all be people who can contribute as individuals or as groups.
Araz

Hi,

Every nation strives to make ordinary people extra ordinary---pakistanis want extra ordinary people to become ordinary---.

So basically everyone must become a protoplasm and stay as such---.

 

[muse]

One point I wish to add for consideration is that quite often, the discussion are biased according to the wishes of those driving them, to the point of being self-defeating. Examples include the many military threads where criticism of certain topics is not tolerated, PTI and PMLN threads specially prior to the elections where blind support is the rule rather than the exception regardless of the issue at hand, and totally fantastic threads about economic progress and untold mineral wealth without any real substance. Of course add in the inevitable Indo-Pak rivalry come up as a virtual guarantee for derailing any thread regardless of its biases, and we have a complete mess where a sane discussion becomes almost impossible. Such an environment keeps good members participate infrequently at best, and makes them leave at worst.

The end result is that most (not all) leading members come across as plying certain agendas rather than being accurate, truthful and interesting, making this forum appear as if it is just a cacophony of competing shrieking mouthpieces rather than anything worthwhile.

It is for the administration and leading members to decide whether they are happy with this situation to continue, which is perfectly fine by me, or of not, how to best change this state of affairs, for it is not my place to say what needs to be done.


@Aeronaut @Awesome @nuclearpak or any mod please approve this post.

Every portal such as this forum, has a policy, an editorial policy, that is to say a clearly defined position on just about everything that they deal with -- I think we could use some help as to what our policy should be on certain vital issues - we can we use the help to define what the so called vital issues are -- and this I think will go a long in clarifying some issues.

I think we should want a cacophony, or competing voices, but we should know where we stand and must stay on message on these issues, this for Mods and admin means whether you agree or not, you follow the line till such time as it is changed.

-The most boring threads are the Indo-Pak threads, I think people only comment on these threads as a way to vent their frustrations at each other and these threads should not be given a wide berth.

@araz and @MastanKhan have brought up an interesting point - - Why do we need a TT?, Similarly the idea that TT should have Moderating aspect to it, OK, but shouldn't we first know where we as a forum stand on certain vital issues -- you all know "vital issues" at least to me, means Extremist ideology, we most recently saw a video of TTP bombing innocent Pakistanis as being presented, falsely, as victims of Drone attack, Perhaps we should think about this more deeply than we have, I mean as we are actively being used by TTP sympathizers to promote their political view, are we obligated to serve in such a capacity??

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Every portal such as this forum, has a policy, an editorial policy, that is to say a clearly defined position on just about everything that they deal with -- I think we could use some help as to what our policy should be on certain vital issues - we can we use the help to define what the so called vital issues are -- and this I think will go a long in clarifying some issues.

.....................

@muse Okay, let me ask the obvious question Sir: Just what is the editorial policy of this forum? And more importantly, just how is it being implemented, and by whom, keeping in mind that waving the flag to the point of leaving all reason behind is not going to be very effective?

Do we really need all the stickies, including ones that are closed or topics that are no longer as relevant as they once were?

Do we really need so many special ranks and titles and just how are they conferred? Seniority by time or posts? Views? Toeing the company line? Contributions? Military service? Government rank? Relatives? Money?

What image do we collectively portray about Pakistan?

Do we want the image that we portray to be honest and true to fact, or seen through the colored prism of a particular point of view (called "editorial policy") where certain topics are regarded as being so sacred so as to be above criticism or scrutiny?

I could go on, but then what is the point? I can only wait for those in charge and in the know to do something if they can be so moved. I am sure such deliberations are best done behind closed doors and are already going on.
@Aeronaut @nuclearpak please approve this post.

 

[MastanKhan]

Every portal such as this forum, has a policy, an editorial policy, that is to say a clearly defined position on just about everything that they deal with -- I think we could use some help as to what our policy should be on certain vital issues - we can we use the help to define what the so called vital issues are -- and this I think will go a long in clarifying some issues.

I think we should want a cacophony, or competing voices, but we should know where we stand and must stay on message on these issues, this for Mods and admin means whether you agree or not, you follow the line till such time as it is changed.

-The most boring threads are the Indo-Pak threads, I think people only comment on these threads as a way to vent their frustrations at each other and these threads should not be given a wide berth.

@araz and @MastanKhan have brought up an interesting point - - Why do we need a TT?, Similarly the idea that TT should have Moderating aspect to it, OK, but shouldn't we first know where we as a forum stand on certain vital issues -- you all know "vital issues" at least to me, means Extremist ideology, we most recently saw a video of TTP bombing innocent Pakistanis as being presented, falsely, as victims of Drone attack, Perhaps we should think about this more deeply than we have, I mean as we are actively being used by TTP sympathizers to promote their political view, are we obligated to serve in such a capacity??

Hi,

We should have done it a long time ago---that was our moral and social duty. But a lack of vision on the part of powers to be the power of this board has been minisculed.