TTP Response to Amnesty By Shah Mehmood Qureshi

[Moon]

But this is classic method of effectively fighting insurgencies and has been used since times immemorial.

I don't think I know anybody in recent history giving amnesty like Pakistan does. I think it comes more down to tactical and political failures, that ultimately pressurise the state into giving pardons.
Russian Army screwed up in Chechenya, but they made sure that Russia negotiated from a position of strength. Same with Iran in Iraq and Syria, Turks in Libya, Syria and Iraq as well. Azeri military crushed Armenians to make sure that the policy maker doesn't come in a position where he has to compromise on his standing.
Whereas we've lost the plot in Balochistan, losing troops to IEDs and ambushes since the last 20 years. In Waziristan, in one tehsil we had 40% of all our casualties. These, along with failure to change strategies all point to tactical failures as well.
Likewise PTI made the stupidest decision to make space for PTM, by literally handing over the seat to them.
Then we have judges who are hell bent on freeing terrorists.
And lastly we have locals who willingly want themselves to be used by terrorist groups to exploit them and commit heinous acts, because they've been doing this since forever. And I don't mean just religious terrorism but ethnic as well.

 

[SaadH]

At least the establishment is being consistent in it's dispensation of amnesty, which was first given to the terrorists of MQM (ably supported by Indian RAW) cart blanche, who are responsible for the death of 30K Pakistanis in Karachi and their most heinous crime for which no one has even been indicted was the burning of 300 souls alive in factory fire set by MQM operatives.

Establishment also gave carte blanche amnesty to individuals from its own ranks, starting from the Patron in Chief of the drone massacres, most heinous of which was the massacre of 80 madrassah students, youngest of whom was 8 and oldest 16 and that despicable cretin Mushy came out and took the credit for that brutal attack. May he burn in hell for all the misery he wrought on Pakistan.

So with this track record, establishment is consistent in it's acquiescence and capitulation.

 

[Aesterix]

TTP are not typical criminals but hardcore militants (non state actors). They can sink to any level in their methods of intimidation.

Pakistan: assassination attempt on High Court judge is assault on rule of law | ICJ

The ICJ condemns the attempted assassination of Justice Maqbool Baqir, a judge of the Sindh High Court, who also sits on the anti-terrorism court

www.icj.org

Pakistani Taliban suicide bomber targets judges in Peshawar

A suicide bomber from the Pakistani Taliban militant group attacked a van carrying judges in northwestern city of Peshawar on Wednesday, wounding several judges and killing the driver, police said.

www.reuters.com

These FREAKS are known to attack and kill troops without 2nd thoughts. Others are fair targets to them as well.

This is a threat of extraordinary proportions which the state can address as a collective (GOP + Judiciary + Military + Police + Agencies). Nothing less will do. Consultations with well-informed religious figures and academics should also be on the cards. The underlying causes and motives must be probed. Proxy assumptions will not be sufficient. The state should have fair assessment of mindsets in Waziristan and adjoining areas and come up with solutions accordingly.

So the judges are scared themselves and won't let the military punish them either and you are justifying that . Good one.

 

[Zhukov]

As a Pakistani who lived his teens in 2000's i.e literally grew up when this fiasco was going on. And now sitting in 2020s as a grownup and being a keen observer and avid reader of geopolitics and foreign policy. I have grown from Determined Positive thinking patriot (When bombs were blowing everywhere in start), to angry (when started to realized our governemnt past policies have big role in all this bloodshed) to Sad/Angry and now indifferent.
This Policy of creating a Zealous ideological pressure cooker right in the backyard and persisting on it.......
Problem is our Government doesnt view our lives and our society as anything important. They are stuck in Cold war Era Socialist governments mindset seeing people as cannon fodder for survival of imaginary sacred state.
Pakistan have totally failed to accept the new idea of new world. That people are precious, Protect them, nourish them, They ARE the state.
They have distroyed our society with ideological experiments and control over information.
Look at where the world is heading.
And These Mofos in policy making are ready to throw another generation into this abbys.

 

[SIPRA]

I don't think I know anybody in recent history giving amnesty like Pakistan does. I think it comes more down to tactical and political failures, that ultimately pressurise the state into giving pardons.
Russian Army screwed up in Chechenya, but they made sure that Russia negotiated from a position of strength. Same with Iran in Iraq and Syria, Turks in Libya, Syria and Iraq as well. Azeri military crushed Armenians to make sure that the policy maker doesn't come in a position where he has to compromise on his standing.
Whereas we've lost the plot in Balochistan, losing troops to IEDs and ambushes since the last 20 years. In Waziristan, in one tehsil we had 40% of all our casualties. These, along with failure to change strategies all point to tactical failures as well.
Likewise PTI made the stupidest decision to make space for PTM, by literally handing over the seat to them.
Then we have judges who are hell bent on freeing terrorists.
And lastly we have locals who willingly want themselves to be used by terrorist groups to exploit them and commit heinous acts, because they've been doing this since forever. And I don't mean just religious terrorism but ethnic as well.

Extent may vary, from state to state, depending upon the relative strengths of the state and the insurgent group(s); but negotiations, pardons, offers etc etc are part of all counter insurgency ventures.

Examples are sometimes misleading, because, to begin with, Pakistan is not a very strong state, in any sense. Why? That is another topic, but we have grossly failed to develop and progress, as we should have been.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Happy hunting season....

They're Murted; and, the Katl of the Murted is Vejip...

 

[LeGenD]

So the judges are scared themselves and won't let the military punish them either and you are justifying that . Good one.

How I am justifying anything? I pointed out some ground realities for general knowledge sake which seem to upset you for some reason. I also pointed out how the state can (and should) try to address this problem.

Military and Judiciary have levels of cooperation in these matters. The late Justice Maqbool Baqir presided in both SHC and ATC for this matter; TTP assassinated him unfortunately. There are others like him as well.

Maybe read the posts more carefully?

 

[FCPX]

TTP, like IS-K, will not stop with offers of amnesty or with appeasement. Both routes are like kicking the can down the road as the problem will not go away.

They need to be degraded with kinetic operations, along with addressing the legitimate issues of the people of the tribal areas, and pressure to be put on Taliban/IEA to get their TTP buddies to stop/curtail their activities in Pak. The last bit wont be easy but Pak has massive leverage over IEA and needs to use it as much as possible.

 

[Sayfullah]

There's certain areas in Pakistan that are "trouble" areas that don't like Pakistan. Those are Waziristan, Central Baluchistan, and the areas surrounding Chaman. The first 2 has actually taken up arms against the state, while Chaman hasn't.

Pakistanis on this forum need to realize that Waziristan tribes (Mehsud and Wazir) are both heavily involved in TTP and PTM. They are involved in these activities because of the lack of economic opportunities/development and the image of Pakistan Army. The average Waziri has a very negative view of the army. Integration is the long term strategy that is being employed right now, but for the short term we need to win the hearts and minds of those people.

Exactly we need to win their hearts and minds. I personally know people from waziristan who see ttp as some hero’s and mujahideen. We need to have dialogue with ttp so that we can reach temporary peace and during that peace we need to do lots of development in waziristan. Educate them people there so public support for ttp goes down. We need peace with ttp and we might even have to accept some of ttp’s conditions in the short term if we want to win in the long term.

 

[araz]

Would you drive a 1920s car today?

A system which is not neutral will always fail. This might work in a Arabic country because its been designed for them and their society of unelected princes and kings and despots. In Pakistan or anywhere else it is an absolute fail. TTP know this and their handlers know this so they are poking at your soft spot and if you do as they say they know it will be your ultimate downfall regardless.

It's like a hijacker demanding 50 billion dollars to let everyone go.

No wonder Imran had to completely change who he was for the masses. This is a corruption of our society and values.

Sshould I send you my address for you to send me the 1920s car? I would be very happy to drive it.
I did not quite catch your drift though. Are you implying that islamic Sharia cannot work just because you have moved on and are in the year 1400 something after my Hadi SAW Lived? If so then we have an ocean of difference and I would much rather not discuss thos further. Needless to say that I would disagree with you vehemently. You have denied the very reason de etre for the existence of Pakistan. There can be no success for any natiln brought up in the name of Islam which then adopts Munafiqat and reneges on its promise to Allah azza wa Jal.
I will end this debate here as this will lead to an argument which canjot be resolved.
Regards
A

 

[araz]

Because there's an aversion to implementation of Sharia, because the only example people have is of TTP.
People want it, no doubt. But they don't want the TTP version of it, the one where dead bodies are mutilated, smuggling is legal, narcotics are legal, daughters are snatched away as compensation, women don't go to school, mosques, schools, houses, universities are bombed, women are hit with sticks because their head wasn't covered.
Do you think this is Sharia? Because that's the only example TTP left.

Then they should leave the case, rather than free the terrorists.
That's exactly why we need military courts.

This is the whole problem with this debate. There are no variants of the Sharia. Look Islam is composed of the Quran and the Ahadeeth of our Rasool Allah SAW. Shareeah is the implementation of laws in accordance with these 2 guiding principles. In order to extract Fiqh(islamic Juresprudence) you need to take guidence from these two sources. In order to not make mistakes the Fuqaha extract rulings only from the Saheeh Ahadeeth and leave out the wdaker ones. Where there are doubts we derive a ruling based on the previous fuqaha's rulings or Ijtehad guided by the Quran and Sunnah. The state reserves the right to formulate and implement the Shareeah in order to provide ease to its citizens as long as it falls within the 2 guiding principles. The imams were nothing more than fuqaha of the times. There are not 4 imams of fiqh but about 124 schools of fiqh and therefore ( netter described as Madahib). The only reazon we know of the 4 imams is because they had large schools and therefore lots of students.
In order to implement Shariah one needs to have people of knowledge sitt8ng down and formulating rules which will be implemented by the state.
When the state is composed of people like Nawaz Musharraf and Zardari how do you implement Shariah. As the state canmot implement its writ with reasoning you have all sorts of deviants coming up and enforcing the wrong kind of rulings. The state remains clueless as the rules are bereft of any knowledge and so the state we are in occurs.
A

 

[Menace2Society]

Sshould I send you my address for you to send me the 1920s car? I would be very happy to drive it.
I did not quite catch your drift though. Are you implying that islamic Sharia cannot work just because you have moved on and are in the year 1400 something after my Hadi SAW Lived? If so then we have an ocean of difference and I would much rather not discuss thos further. Needless to say that I would disagree with you vehemently. You have denied the very reason de etre for the existence of Pakistan. There can be no success for any natiln brought up in the name of Islam which then adopts Munafiqat and reneges on its promise to Allah azza wa Jal.
I will end this debate here as this will lead to an argument which canjot be resolved.
Regards
A

You can drive it but you will be slower than everyone, might get in the way of others, you could get into an accident..

Look I'm just an observer here who has lived in Pakistan and abroad and travelled. I don't really have a bias so I am giving you an objective view on a political, NOT a religious point of view.

I don't want to discuss the spiritual aspects because that's a totally different topic and I am not here to offend. I am focussing specifically on the sharia being fit for purpose as a political and governance model. I mean this in no disrespect, even communism led by an empire failed to implement, it lost to democratic capitalism.

Sure if you want to apply the sharia on a personal level go for it but to apply it as a system of governance you are just setting yourself up to lose, over what? Ego?

As Pakistan evolves you are going to see a generation emerging who think very differently, you need to be prepared for that and prepare the country to flexible enough for this. Jinnah knew what we was doing, just stick to his game plan.

 

[RescueRanger]

Why would you offer the same people who martyred our children in a school an amnesty. Demented decision by the government!

 

[PakCan]

Maybe offering amnesty is a way to let the public know we were willing to work with them before the operation starts.

 

[SIPRA]

Maybe offering amnesty is a way to let the public know we were willing to work with them before the operation starts.

That is precisely the case, in my opinion.