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Traitors of Pakistan

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  • The word traitor in this context would meaning being disloyal to a nation state ie Pakistan. This by definition does not mean you have gone against Islam. You can be a Muslim, a good Muslim but be a Swede, a Tunisian, a Turk, a Syrian, a Algerian, a Malay etc. A Iranian or Afghan Muslim or Indian Muslim who goes against Pakistan cannot be called a traitor.

  • The word heretic or blasphemous is reserved for people who go against Islam. Thus you could remain a Pakistani citizen but be a blasphemer. Iranian Muslims, Afghan Muslims or Indian Muslims are not blasphemers or heretics because they oppose or fight against the Pakistani state.
 
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This is real face of Zarvan. He has skills to twist things but he always talked against our army not only musharaf. During 2010-2013 He never mourns on death of our army soldiers but taliban. He spread venom day & night against our brave soldiers when we were busy to eliminate terrorists. View attachment 552468
Yup this is truth. he is hardcore supporter of Taliban plus now he has started giving license of islam and traitors. In future he will start killing. Some one hand over @Zarvan to ISPR for chitrol @Imran Khan
 
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I am an atheist and I'm thankful to my army who flushed out the scum that OP idolizes. If the OP sympathizes with the TTP so much, may be he could f*ck off to India where he can find far more TTP supporters than in Pakistan.
 
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You can have whatever opinion you want about @Zarvan - he is right. Every one of those in that picture is a traitor.

I wish we were more like Israel, Russia and Iran, they know how to travel around the world and pick off their traitors. In Pakistan it actually pays to be a traitor, the more brazenly you declare hatred towards the state, the more the state cowers before you - afraid of not appearing liberal in front of it's white masters.
Did u saw zarvan picture then what would you call him for that?
 
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A nation state is a secular construct [with borders to limit it] and the very idea of prefixing 'Islamic' republic is a joke on the ignorant masses and a affront to logic. The word traitor again operates within the secular domain. If you sell Pakistani state secrets to Islamic Afghanistan or Islamic Iran does that make you a traitor or heretic/blasphemer? Clearly it makes you a traitor to Pakistan and not a blasphemer or heretic in Islam.


'Islamic' republic
The fact is this term is a insult and a joke. A republic is defined by a state that reposes it's supreme power in the people ~ that is the public, thus republic. Well in a Islamic state supreme power is vested in the almighty which of course makes the 'republic' bit redundant. That leaves democracy. In a Islamic state everything is already established in the Quran and the Sharia so the notion that the people get to decide is false. The only thing needed is Quran/Sharia as the constitution and a body of men to interpret the Quran/Sharia. Democracy is contradictory to this concept.
 
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I previously asked @WebMaster to either delete my account or permanantly ban me but he told me stop logging me.
Which I can't due to addiction problem.

The more time I spent here the more I put my life in danger.

Kindly permantly ban me if deletion is not possible @AgNoStiC MuSliM
Brother don't leave if you left then this jihadi zarvan will win.
 
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I am an atheist
I have thought of this hard and long. I am not the type who thinks so, just because he was born so. @Zarvan would have been the full blooded, turban wearing, bearded Sikh had he been born in a Sikh household. Actually all he needs is a turban and he would be Sikh certified. Or had he been born in a Hindu household he would be full blooded Hindutva charging in the vanguard of the RSS lynching some Muslims for having a piece premium cut beef steak.

However I find comfort in Islam and as a anchor in a ever changing world. It provides a bedrock on which my personal and family values are built on. If I became athiest those would collapse as there would be no moorings. If my son came home drunk or my daughter with a boyfriend I would have issues which follow from my faith.

However as much as I value that I absolutely reject the use of Islam at the public level. Religion should not be used as a political tool. That is why I support secularism. The fact that we have 100,000s of good Muslims like @war&peace who live in secular west is living proof of that. Nobody can say they are bad Muslims or are lesser Muslims then those who live in so called Islamic states proves that secularism is perfectly acceptable.

If a person can be a good Muslim in secular Sweden they sure like hell can be a good Muslim in secular Pakistan ~ with added advantage it is Muslim majority. @war&peace
 
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I used to not be a big fan of the military and their hold over the country, but given that we have a neighbor who is eternally hostile to us and will stop at nothing in trying to create little obedient Bangladeshs out of us, having an oversized militarily is not a luxury but a necessity. And I've come to terms with it.
 
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Zarvan bhai not coming slow anymore.
 
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However as much as I value that I absolutely reject the use of Islam at the public level. Religion should not be used as a political tool. That is why I support secularism. The fact that we have 100,000s of good Muslims like @war&peace who live in secular west is living proof of that. Nobody can say they are bad Muslims or are lesser Muslims then those who live in so called Islamic states proves that secularism is perfectly acceptable.

If a person can be a good Muslim in secular Sweden they sure like hell can be a good Muslim in secular Pakistan ~ with added advantage it is Muslim majority. @war&peace
Secular principles do not necessarily contradict to Islamic principles with exception of few things. Secularism is a complex term having many different interpretations. If secularism mean equality, justice for all, freedom of religion etc then these are Islamic values as well but secular countries are not secular in true sense otherwise why public holidays only on Xmas, Easter and England often labelled as Christian country

Mostly Muslim oppose secularism because Islam is deen i.e something which is not limited to your personal life and they believe Islamic values should reflect at state level and Islamic laws should be applicable to Muslims. You think that state should have no say when dealing with matters like prostitution , drugs, alcohol, modesty etc
 
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Did u saw zarvan picture then what would you call him for that?
Noor like baitullah Mehsood . They blindly followed everyone just by looks.
They themselves praised everyone even they did mourn on their death killed by our army.
 
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Secular principles do not necessarily contradict to Islamic principles with exception of few things. Secularism is a complex term having many different interpretations. If secularism mean equality, justice for all, freedom of religion etc then these are Islamic values as well but secular countries are not secular in true sense otherwise why public holidays only on Xmas, Easter and England often labelled as Christian country

Mostly Muslim oppose secularism because Islam is deen i.e something which is not limited to your personal life and they believe Islamic values should reflect at state level and Islamic laws should be applicable to Muslims. You think that state should have no say when dealing with matters like prostitution , drugs, alcohol, modesty etc
You've touched upon an important point, that no system is 'perfect' or static. You see this in the West currently, where right-wing parties are seeing a resurgence and pushing 'values' that smack of racism, intolerance and bigotry, values that have no place in a 'perfect secular State'. You see this in the US, where the phrase 'One nation under God' was added relatively recently. This push and pull will continue, and change (in either direction) will occur gradually.

We are unlikely to see Pakistan transform into a 'secular State' in our lifetime, but what most of us should be able to agree on is the implementation of values that both Islam & secularism agree on - like equality for everyone regardless of race, gender or faith, like the freedom to practice our faith (or lack of faith) as we see fit. As IP pointed out above, there are many, many practicing Muslims in the West who are surrounded by what some would consider 'morally sinful activities', yet these Muslims do not stray from their faith and do not berate those who do not follow their faith. The live side by side in harmony for the most part (at least in the US). Why can Pakistan not accomplish the same?

We can be nation of Muslims that also allows everyone to practice their beliefs as they see fit, especially when it comes to what people do in the privacy of their own homes. This isn't an argument to allow men to wear speedos and women to wear bikinis while walking on the street, it's an argument that we should at least stay out of people's private lives. If two consenting adults want to drink alcohol (and not drive drunk or disturb the public) in the privacy of their home, or have a physical relationship outside of marriage what does it matter to the rest of us?

Some of you may disagree with everything I wrote, and that is fine, I don't expect to change minds in an instant, but while disagreeing with me, please also respect my (and others) right to voice an opinion about the direction of the country that is different from yours, and I shall extend the same courtesy to you. At the end of the day all we can do is try and advocate in favor of our views and hope that we can eventually convince enough people to bring about change that we want to see. We might fail, and if we do so be it, but let us fail after we have had a free and equal opportunity to make our case.
 
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I'm going to shut the thread down folks for the following reason.
Over the last few days we have had two threads (involving the same brother) where we as a site have been dragged into snap judgments made over individuals we know nothing about.
Due to his love for the site (admirable by the way), it is clearly seen on his profile hence people will follow likewise and make snap judgments of our site, which is incredibly unfair considering we represent a wide spectrum from the religious folks, the non-religious folks, the in-between crowd, the secular crew, the not-so secular lot, agnostic and atheists, all the sects within Islam, other faiths, expats, resident Pakistanis, different ethnicities, and so on.
There's one thing that brings us together, the love of our fatherland.
Let things be elsewhere and let's just concentrate on building our community here. I've been at it for 14 years here on this site, and I don't think I've even scratched the surface.
Thank you for reading.
 
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