Tracing Arya Samaj in Karachi

[Baibars_1260]

They don't abuse but they invites Islamist for discussion on religions on concepts such as God, creation of Earth etc.

Is there a source for police records of the causes of communal riots due to "discussions"? Would like to know the perspective from the Arya Samaj point of view. The photo copy of the document mentioning the "abuse" I posted on post #24 seems to suggest otherwise. Would you be having a cooy of the Arya Samaj journal (1927) Risala e Vartman?
@Bambi please help.

Question:
1. Is the Arya Samaj in India today following Swami Virjanand's legacy?
By what date does the Arya Samaj hope to achieve the goal of
cleansing India of "all contaminating elements"?

Actually, Swami Dayanand's legacy.
Very difficult to say. However, seeds are sawn. Seeds of RSS were sawn in Earle 1900s. Today, their swayam decals are transforming the country. Arya samaj is oppose to many prevailing practices in Hindu society. It had its network spread across each corners of India one time but now it doesn't have much influence. I am not a visionary to predict future but would always like Arya samaj to be strengthen.

Thanks ! A very informative response.
(Note: Interesting point on the opposition of the Arya Samaj to "prevailing practices" in Hindu society. We can discuss which "prevailing practices " in Hindu society Arya Samaj is opposed to in a separate post on this thread.)
Would deeply appreciate some information.
Arya Samaj started in 1869 or 1877 depending on whether you would like to consider Swami Dayanand Saraswati's movement started from Lahore as the true launch date or earlier. The shuddhi movement was aimed at reconverting the Muslim population in the region they were in majority ( which is the territory of Pakistan today ).

Questions:
1. Had the Arya Samaj foreseen Partition in 1927, and which is why it was trying to revert the Muslim population of Punjab and Sindh to the Santana Dharma?

2. To what extent were the shuddhi targets achieved in Pakistan?

3. What is the status of the Arya Samaj in Pakistan today?

4. What is the future plans of the Arya Samaj in Pakistan as of today?

5. By when would the Arya Samaj in Pakistan today be able to reconvert the current non-Hindu population of Pakistan?

The information on the status of the Arya Samaj in India is deeply appreciated , but as a Pakistani my prime interest is obviously my own country so could we briefly first discuss the history, present, and future of the Arya Samaj in Pakistan?
For history I mentioned how the Ahmediyyas were opposed to the Arya Samaj ( post # 24 ) ? What is your perspective on this .
Please invite other members to this discussion,

Also looking forward to the questions in my post #35.
@Vikki @achhu
@SecularNationalist @Secularindian
@jamahir

 

[Chhatrapati]

Good indeed.

Communist Consolidation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bhagat Singh and Savarkar, Two Petitions that Tell Us the Difference Between Hind and Hindutva

The Indian revolutionary, who popularised the slogan 'Inquilab Zindabad', demanded that the British send a military detachment to execute him by firing squad; the Hindu nationalist promised to give up the fight for freedom if released – and kept his word.

thewire.in

Yeah, I like the way you think who deserves a better position, Bhagat Singh or Savarkar whose prison sentence was worth Savarkar or Gandhi, tomorrow you may count the prison sentence time, who served longer, why Savarkar wasn't hanged but Bhagat Singh was, what a degeneration commie.
You are yet to answer how Savarkar became a British stooge. Instead of posting more links, talk on the merits of information you know already.

Must hurt to have such an ugly MF-er for a leader.

Lol! Well, like I said before I am not gay so, I don't care how some Indian politicians looked. It's not like Gandhi or Jinnah did a striptease in front of King George to gain independence.

I thought you were among the non ITcell posters. Such a shame you also turned out to be a closet chaddi.

Now, Pakistani, look at my flags, do you think I come here to impress you? Sod off.

 

[Cliftonite]

@Baibars_1260

Arya Samaj is a spent force in Pakistan and India.

But isn't it interesting that Hindutva RSS is losing steam from its birth place of Maharashtra as well.

Interesting phenomenon to note. Punjab and Bengal were virulently anti Muslim in the early 1900s too. Now Bengal is half and half Muslim (talking about WB). And Punjab is a Sikh haven.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Yeah, I like the way you think who deserves a better position, Bhagat Singh or Savarkar whose prison sentence was worth Savarkar or Gandhi, tomorrow you may count the prison sentence time, who served longer, why Savarkar wasn't hanged but Bhagat Singh was, what a degeneration commie.
You are yet to answer how Savarkar became a British stooge. Instead of posting more links, talk on the merits of information you know already.

Chhatrapati,

Your insights are very valuable
Would deeply appreciate if we could stick to the topic

Could you support @Surya 1 in his response to the questions regarding the future of the Arya Samaj in Pakistan? Refer to my earlier post.
Thank you.

 

[Chhatrapati]

Arya Samaj in Pakistan?

I simply answered to a proposition made about freedom fighters in India, given the topic is Aryasamaj and Hindu Mahasabha it's very relevant about the members of it's umbrella organization, now speaking of Arya Samaj, I don't have the patience to read on long theories of half cooked knowledge some Pakistanis get, and the discussion is going very religious, which I don't prefer to get into, I'd rather discuss the political side of it.

Arya samaj was a great movement, I agree with some of their ideas like removing caste system to a one consolidated Hindus and disagree with reverting people to Hinduism. Now, Arya Samaj in Pakistan has zero relevance, even in India I haven't heard about Arya Samaj in years, the only function I know they do these days is, give certificates to tourists who wants to visit temples where they don't allow non-Hindus to enter.

You're writing the horoscope of a dead child, stop wasting time thinking about Arya Samaj in Pakistan.

 

[Baibars_1260]

@Baibars_1260

Arya Samaj is a spent force in Pakistan and India.

But isn't it interesting that Hindutva RSS is losing steam from its birth place of Maharashtra as well.

Interesting phenomenon to note. Punjab and Bengal were virulently anti Muslim in the early 1900s too. Now Bengal is half and half Muslim (talking about WB). And Punjab is a Sikh haven.

Let's have Suryaji's opinion on this. Since they advocate Pakistani Muslims reverting to their Sanatan Dharma status, let's give them some space to explain their past, present and future efforts towards this goal.
Keeping the discussion logical ( like Mr. Spock would say ) has benefits.

It is far easier to write one line slogans than to research why the Arya Samaj supports the Manu Smriti , and why Arya Samaji's do not consider Lord Rama to be divine but a Maryada Purushottam ( Ideal Man).
There are a myriad questions which hopefully our Indian guests here who appear to be Arya Samajis themselves would answer.

 

[Cliftonite]

Let's have Suryaji's opinion on this. Since they advocate Pakistani Muslims reverting to their Sanatan Dharma status, let's give them some space to explain their past, present and future efforts towards this goal.
Keeping the discussion logical ( like Mr. Spock would say ) has benefits.

It is far easier to write one line slogans than to research why the Arya Samaj supports the Manu Smriti , and why Arya Samaji's do not consider Lord Rama to be divine but a Maryada Purushottam ( Ideal Man).
There are a myriad questions which hopefully our Indian guests here who appear to be Arya Samajis themselves would answer.

Suryaji is an ITceller. He'll mumble a few words about Tanatan dharma, Dinduphobia and reclamation of Aryavarta.

But even they know Pakistan mein ghar wapsi unka baap bhi nahi karsakta. I'll be surprised if they can ghar wapsi-ize a single Xtian district in Mizoram or a katmulla district in Mallapuram. Oonchi dukaan pheeke pakwaan

 

[Baibars_1260]

I simply answered to a proposition made about freedom fighters in India, given the topic is Aryasamaj and Hindu Mahasabha it's very relevant about the members of it's umbrella organization, now speaking of Arya Samaj, I don't have the patience to read on long theories of half cooked knowledge some Pakistanis get, and the discussion is going very religious, which I don't prefer to get into, I'd rather discuss the political side of it.

Agree We will stick to the political side only and
avoid the religious differences unless you would like to educate us Pakistanis on the details of the religious differences ( and by the way we are interested why Arya Samajis don't worship idols).
My post to Suryaji is exactly that...which is political.
Don't you agree that reconversion of Muslims has political consequences?
If the Arya Samaj had achieved it's objectives in the 1920s what would be the geo-political landscape of the subcontinent today?

Arya samaj was a great movement, I agree with some of their ideas like removing caste system to a one consolidated Hindus and disagree with reverting people to Hinduism. Now, Arya Samaj in Pakistan has zero relevance, even in India I haven't heard about Arya Samaj in years, the only function I know they do these days is, give certificates to tourists who wants to visit temples where they don't allow non-Hindus to enter.

Well spoken! In fact from the minuscule knowledge I have I am actually quite impressed with the essence of Arya Samaj's Vedic philosophy ( as opposed to its political offspring) . The emphasis on the single supreme force, which is formless borders on monotheism. But again, leaving that aside coming to the question of Arya Samaj's relevance today how does it fit in with the gharwapasi of non-Hindus in India? After all gharwapasi and shuddhi are essentially the same, and the idea first arose from the Arya Samaj itself. Could anyone tell us what Swami Agnivesh's stance was on gharwapasi ? Swami Agnivesh seemed to enjoy some popularity amongst Indian Muslims.

You're writing the horoscope of a dead child, stop wasting time thinking about Arya Samaj in Pakistan.

On the contrary:
The subject of Aryavir, Arya Samaj, shuddhi, and reversion of Pakistanis to the Sanatan Dharma is a common stance by noted members on this forum ( @Bambi , @Surya 1 , @MilSpec @suyog chavan ), so I decided to improve my knowledge on these topics and looked to both Pakistani and Indian sources. I am hampered due to my ignorance of Hindi and inability to read the Devnagari script so the primary information from the Arya Samaj websites and journals is inaccessible to me.
It is our Indian guests who keep writing as you describe it the "dead child horoscope"
But nonetheless don't you agree that it is worthwhile learning the history of militant Hindu movements in what is now Pakistan today?
For that matter there was an RSS movement in Pakistan also and a living stalwart is L.K.Advani. Then there was Balraj Madhok...
It is part of the history of our nation, and we as the post-independence generation should know.
Would like @masterchief_mirza and @Cliftonite to comment on if we should forget or remember past:

 

[Bambi]

Agree We will stick to the political side only and
avoid the religious differences unless you would like to educate us Pakistanis on the details of the religious differences ( and by the way we are interested why Arya Samajis don't worship idols).
My post to Suryaji is exactly that...which is political.
Don't you agree that reconversion of Muslims has political consequences?
If the Arya Samaj had achieved it's objectives in the 1920s what would be the geo-political landscape of the subcontinent today?




Well spoken! In fact from the minuscule knowledge I have I am actually quite impressed with the essence of Arya Samaj's Vedic philosophy ( as opposed to its political offspring) . The emphasis on the single supreme force, which is formless borders on monotheism. But again, leaving that aside coming to the question of Arya Samaj's relevance today how does it fit in with the gharwapasi of non-Hindus in India? After all gharwapasi and shuddhi are essentially the same, and the idea first arose from the Arya Samaj itself. Could anyone tell us what Swami Agnivesh's stance was on gharwapasi ? Swami Agnivesh seemed to enjoy some popularity amongst Indian Muslims.




On the contrary:
The subject of Aryavir, Arya Samaj, shuddhi, and reversion of Pakistanis to the Sanatan Dharma is a common stance by noted members on this forum ( @Bambi , @Surya 1 , @MilSpec @suyog chavan ), so I decided to improve my knowledge on these topics and looked to both Pakistani and Indian sources. I am hampered due to my ignorance of Hindi and inability to read the Devnagari script so the primary information from the Arya Samaj websites and journals is inaccessible to me.
It is our Indian guests who keep writing as you describe it the "dead child horoscope"
But nonetheless don't you agree that it is worthwhile learning the history of militant Hindu movements in what is now Pakistan today?
For that matte there was an RSS movement in Pakistan also and a living stalwart is L.K.Advani. Then there was Balraj Madhok...
It is part of the history of our nation, and we as the post-independence generation should know.
Would like @masterchief_mirza and @Cliftonite to comment on if we should forget or remember past:

Janab where in all my posts have I ever discussed this Aryan samaj aryavir etc


And where in my posts have I
"reversion of Pakistanis to the Sanatan Dharma" said this pls show me
I have never talked religion to you in fact you have said this to me

"Don't mind this guy.
Let him post a million times.
It's when you don't answer you see him screech and scratch his right armpit with his right paw and left armpit with his left paw"

"Mr. Bamboo,
I promise you I will keep lying to you a million times. After my millionth lie I will continue lying forever.
So start counting."

I know what you are trying to do

"


How are you

."I am hampered due to my ignorance of Hindi and inability to read the Devnagari script so the primary information from the Arya Samaj websites and journals is inaccessible to me."


But still

"Pakistani's need to learn how to read Devanagari. It is dead easy, because it is such a simple phonetic script with only one spelling for one word sound. Moreover, l-phone and Mac keyboards make typing in Hindi so easy. Just write in Roman English. You can also speak into the microphone voice to text. I find that easiest"

"My basic self taught Devanagari script coupled with Google Script translate software has revealed much how the average Indian thinks about Indian Muslims and Muslims in general."

Is this what you were trying to do?

"So my advice too Pakistanis is to learn Hindi first and then study the Sanatana Dharma.
Hindi is extremely easy to learn because the script is uniquely phonetic that is there is only one spelling for a particular word sound."



"But to defeat the enemy we need to understand their
language, culture and religion
The enemy understands us much better than we need to understand them
The Russians learnt German so that they could defeat the enemy. The war is not fought on the battlefield alone, but on the social media and forums like these. Unless you understand Hindi, and the Hindu religion you will never have an advantage over the enemy."


How were you able to read this then stop lying janab

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newstrack.com

When you showed me maroon berret SSG as Bihar regiment

 

[Baibars_1260]

Suryaji is an ITceller. He'll mumble a few words about Tanatan dharma, Dinduphobia and reclamation of Aryavarta.

You are right @Surya 1 maybe an "IT celler" but let's get his ( or hers) views on the topic and for that matter let's get @Chhatrapati, @Vanamali; @MilSpec ; @Bambi and others to give us their views on reconversion of Pakistani Muslims .
We know they want Pakistani Muslims to reconvert. We would like to know how they will achieve this objective.
The Indian guests constantly refer to the Arya Samaj and Aryavirs ( converted Muslims) which is why reviewing the success of the Arya Samaj towards this objective is relevant.

But even they know Pakistan mein ghar wapsi unka baap bhi nahi karsakta. I'll be surprised if they can ghar wapsi-ize a single Xtian district in Mizoram or a katmulla district in Mallapuram. Oonchi dukaan pheeke pakwaan

Point noted. At least you can't fault the Arya Samaj for not trying to convert Muslims. No Hindu organization ( Maratha, Sikh, Rajput) tried that for 1000 years. It was either a fight to the finish, or accommodation with Islam, usually the latter. Even the powerful Sikh Empire had very little success in converting Afghans as did the Marathas before them.
To their credit the Arya Samajis had a unique dual approach of dialogue with Islamic clergy, outright street corner abuse of Islam, brute force communal pogroms on Muslim minorities. Much of this was under the umbrella of British rule from the 1920s to the late 1940s and the British were loathe to have a law and order problem on their hands which is why they instituted the Blasphemy Act.

Let our Indian guests comment on this. Jeering at them won't provide us the data we need. They will either jeer and abuse in return ( which usually happens) or shut up. We want neither. We need to understand them with logic ( which is also largely distasteful to them) . The success (or failure) of the Arya Samaj in Pakistan is very relevant to our history and also a reminder to our Indian guests that the attempt to reconvert Pakistani Muslims to the Sanatan Dharma had been made 100 years back when the Muslims of what is now Pakistan has neither political, economic, administrative or military power, and not even a country of their own being colonial subjects of the British who were heavily tilted in favor of the Hindu majority population of united India.
So what is the future? Let them speak.

 

[Surya 1]

You are right @Surya 1 maybe an "IT celler"

No, I am a management accountant with multiple qualifications in various disciplines such as strategic management , finance, business analytics, import export, chemistry etc. Working with Essar group in Surat.

I have read fair amount of material Swami Dayanand's Saraswati and hence I know few things about Arya Samaj and their philosophy.

Chhatrapati,

Your insights are very valuable
Would deeply appreciate we could stick to the topic

Could you support @Surya 1 in his response to the questions regarding the future of the Arya Samaj in Pakistan? Refer to my earlier post.
Thank you.

Some philosophies are based on pure truth. They sometimes find more acceptance and sometimes less acceptance but they are eaternal in nature. Since Vedas are eaternal, and Arya samaj follows Vedas, they exist for ever. It remains to be seen when their acceptance grows in society.

 

[Chhatrapati]

Well spoken! In fact from the minuscule knowledge I have I am actually quite impressed with the essence of Arya Samaj's Vedic philosophy ( as opposed to its political offspring) . The emphasis on the single supreme force, which is formless borders on monotheism. But again, leaving that aside coming to the question of Arya Samaj's relevance today how does it fit in with the gharwapasi of non-Hindus in India? After all gharwapasi and shuddhi are essentially the same, and the idea first arose from the Arya Samaj itself. Could anyone tell us what Swami Agnivesh's stance was on gharwapasi ? Swami Agnivesh seemed to enjoy some popularity amongst Indian Muslims.

Swami Agnivesh, as far as I know, is a rebel among Hindumahasabha ranks. He created his own organization, went on to support a lot of political movements that are against BJP. I don't see much importance to him, mainly because he was simply attractive because of his saffron robe. I'm not too sure if he had much support among Muslims, it'll be strange if they did, or maybe because of his dislike for RSS.

The subject of Aryavir, Arya Samaj, shuddhi, and reversion of Pakistanis to the Sanatan Dharma is a common stance by noted members on this forum

Really? From what I observe, the reversion, Agandabharat - Gazwa e Hind goes back and forth in the forum. Are they any relevant, as a serious discussion?

I am hampered due to my ignorance of Hindi and inability to read the Devnagari script so the primary information from the Arya Samaj websites and journals is inaccessible to me.

Simply use google translate, or ask any Indian on the forum to transliterate for you if it's text. I'm sure you can understand most of Hindi words if you speak Urdu.
But I don't quite understand your interest in Arya Samaj in particular. Anyway, good luck with your research I hope you gain something.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Swami Agnivesh, as far as I know, is a rebel among Hindumahasabha ranks. He created his own organization, went on to support a lot of political movements that are against BJP. I don't see much importance to him, mainly because he was simply attractive because of his saffron robe. I'm not too sure if he had much support among Muslims, it'll be strange if they did, or maybe because of his dislike for RSS.

Thanks for your insight. I have been educated. Agnivesh was not popular among Indian Muslims.
In fact I am in a double error here because Indian Muslims are irrelevant to Pakistan.

Really? From what I observe, the reversion, Agandabharat - Gazwa e Hind goes back and forth in the forum. Are they any relevant, as a serious discussion?

Point well noted. Ghazwa-e-Hind is topic of singular ignorance and I made a lengthy post on how ridiculous this is both from the point of view of fundamental Islamic theology and a historical concept. I will subsequently link you to discussion with @suyog chavan on this topic. But I agree neither the topics of "Akhand Bharat" or Ghazwae Hind are relevant to a serious discussion.
But discussing Arya Samaj, Aryvirs, shuddhi, and reconversion is relevant because these are actual movements part of recent history and relevant to modern Pakistan because that's where these movements were most active. The fact that Indian members here who raise these precedents actually have a very substantial basis. Don't you think so?

Simply use google translate, or ask any Indian on the forum to transliterate for you if it's text. I'm sure you can understand most of Hindi words if you speak Urdu.

Thanks, I recently bought a Hindi English Dictionary ( Oxford). My Apple I-Pad has a transliteration keyboard so I can copy and paste Devanagari script words ( transliterated ) into the Dictionary App, and get an approximate meaning. Yes, I do speak Urdu, but in terms of vocabulary both Hindi and Urdu languages have drifted so far apart that except for the grammar articles there is little similarity. I am taking an online course in simple Hindi though without a Sanskrit background I will never be as proficient as is needed.
Thanks for suggesting other members could help.
If I am not being intrusive how familiar are you with Hindi ? I mean the beautiful classical Sanskritized Hindi, not the Bollywood mish mash?

But I don't quite understand your interest in Arya Samaj in particular. Anyway, good luck with your research I hope you gain something.

Arya Samaj is part of our history and the movement in its current form took off from Lahore.
About 100 years back the Arya Samajis, made a very serious and sustained effort to reconvert Muslims in the territory of what is now Pakistan. The shuddhi movement had a fair chance of success because of the following:

1.The Muslims of this region were largely illiterate peasants, and the economic, educational and administrative power was with the Hindus in a united India.
2. The British who ruled India were sympathetic to the reconversions because they preferred to go by the sentiments of the majority population rather than have a law and order problem on their hands.
3.The Muslim clergy or intelligentsia were no where close in education, eloquence, or organization compared to their Arya Samaji counterparts. Arya Samaji intellectuals dominated the academia in most Universities in what is now Pakistan.

Yet, with the help of resistance from Ahmediyyas ( ironically themselves a minority) the people of what is now Pakistan were able to sustain their religious identity.
It is the reason why the shuddhi movement failed in Pakistan today which is still 96.2 % Muslim.
Arya Samajis had 70 years to convert Muslims in what is now Pakistan and avoid Partition.
Those Hindu Nationalists here who put the blame on Muslim appeasement on the Congress are not considering the fact that the Congress was not in power those 70 years ( 1877 -1947) and the power was with the British.
The British would have loved a purely Hindu India which would have enabled them to control Afghanistan and much of the Middle East. confronting Iran and Afghanistan. There would never have been a Pakistan.
( and which is somewhat of a valid argument by Indian Nationalists here on this forum like @Surya 1 who want to revive conversions)

So the question is:
What happened?
Why is Pakistan 96.2 % Muslim today?

 

[Baibars_1260]

No, I am a management accountant with multiple qualifications in various disciplines such as strategic management , finance, business analytics, import export, chemistry etc. Working with Essar group in Surat.

I have read fair amount of material Swami Dayanand's Saraswati and hence I know few things about Arya Samaj and their philosophy.



Some philosophies are based on pure truth. They sometimes find more acceptance and sometimes less acceptance but they are eaternal in nature. Since Vedas are eaternal, and Arya samaj follows Vedas, they exist for ever. It remains to be seen when their acceptance grows in society.

Thanks once again for your response.
Am impressed! My deepest apologies for not knowing your credentials.
Your knowledge of the vedas is immense.

Could you give us a brief SWOT analysis of the shuddhi/gharwapasi movement?
I had posed some questions on the history and future of the various movement as started by the Arya Samaj in 1877.
Could you answer ( or if you wish decline to answer) those questions ?
As a management professional what would be your forecast and timeline for the reconversion of all Muslims in the subcontinent. Would this be the only way to reconstitute the punya bhumi or would a political reintegration of India be possible without conversions?

A phase wise event to the establishment of a united 100% India in Gantt chart or MS PP would be wonderful.
Could you attach a snapshot of the Gantt chart.
Would ask you for PERT-CPM diagram but that would obviously be confidential.
Thanks for a very interesting insight
Eagerly looking forward to your response.
Thanks

 

[MilSpec]

On the contrary:
The subject of Aryavir, Arya Samaj, shuddhi, and reversion of Pakistanis to the Sanatan Dharma is a common stance by noted members on this forum ( @Bambi , @Surya 1 , @MilSpec @suyog chavan ),

Would like to see one quote of mine remotely suggesting above..

let's get @Chhatrapati, @Vanamali; @MilSpec ; @Bambi and others to give us their views on reconversion of Pakistani Muslims .

Zero interests in religious threads. Again please stop tagging me in religious threads. @AgNoStiC MuSliM why are religious threads running here?