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Tracing Arya Samaj in Karachi

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Point well taken:
The Santana Dharma on its own attracts few converts and even a forced conversion though a media event is mostly temporary. The main reason is caste or varna ( to be discussed later).

But we are primarily discussing Arya Samaj here. We will discuss the Hindutva clone later.

The Arya Samaj phenomenon is uniquely different and far more attractive to conversions because of the following reasons:
1. There is no caste within the Arya Samaj sect.
2. The Arya Samaji's don't worship idols.
3. ( Not sure) Arya Samaji's do believe in a single Supreme Being.

They are essentially going back to the pure Vedic ideology.

Which is why their success however limited and largely amongst neo-Buddhists and tribals is far more than the aggressive Hindutva clone we see today.
Religious conversions into new religions hardly find mainstream success in the subcontinent. They're like fringe groups. Ahmadiyya didn't fare well (did surprisingly well in Africa with around 8-10 million Ahmadis though).

Bahaism didn't. Brahmo Samaj didn't. Jainism didn't. Christianity didn't.

Sikhism did well because of the Sikh empire. But only in the areas of the erstwhile Sikh empire.

Islam didn't find much traction east of the Jamuna and Thar desert either.

Only exception I can name is Islam in Bengal.

Supposedly Islam also took centuries to gain majority in Punjab and Sindh. It was a gradual process. And till the 1800s, most of the people here were practising a syncretic mix of Islam and Hinduism.
 
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Religious conversions into new religions hardly find mainstream success in the subcontinent. They're like fringe groups. Ahmadiyya didn't fare well (did surprisingly well in Africa with around 8-10 million Ahmadis though).

Bahaism didn't. Brahmo Samaj didn't. Jainism didn't. Christianity didn't.

Sikhism did well because of the Sikh empire. But only in the areas of the erstwhile Sikh empire.

Islam didn't find much traction east of the Jamuna and Thar desert either.

Only exception I can name is Islam in Bengal.

Supposedly Islam also took centuries to gain majority in Punjab and Sindh. It was a gradual process. And till the 1800s, most of the people here were practising a syncretic mix of Islam and Hinduism.
Fascinating! Agree.
I actually discussed this though confined to the reasons for Hindu Muslim hostility in a series of 4 write ups ( which is continuing) in the thread;



To return to the Arya Samaj.
There is a significant presence of the Arya Samaj in North America which I have been monitoring.
(a video link is given below).
You don't have to wade through the whole video. Just scroll to 10:00 and listen upto 11:30 ( 90 seconds). What this Governor of the Indian province of Himachal Pradesh is saying is that Christianity "failed" because of the Catholic Protestant split and Islam has failed because it brought war and destruction to the world. India and the Sanatana Dharma are successful and the only way because the Dharma is spread by the Gurus traveling all over the world.

 
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A very important and informative thread. @Baibars_1260

The general corollary of the various observations and evidences presented in a number of threads on this and related topics is quite straightforward.

There is no genetic, cultural, racial, geographical, historical or moral standpoint from which a concept of "gharwapsi" may be espoused by our eastern neighbours.

It is entirely inconsistent that a nation that accepted an imported religion, (a) in the form of pre-Vedic Hinduism which crystallised within the Indus Valley Civilisation and is therefore at least Pakistani by geographic definition and arguably an Iranian import, and then (b) Vedic Hinduism or brahminism, which is drastically different from the IVC precursor and is heavily influenced by Aryan ideological imports, now declares its desire to "return" the adherents of the latter imported religions to this slightly earlier imported religion.

The whole basis of the argument is comical and incoherent to anyone who exists outside of the bubble.

Let us not even touch on Gandara and ancient Buddhist ideologies that existed before Hinduism but were wiped out partly by the latter faith group.

"Reversion to Vedic Hinduism in the Indian subcontinent" is possibly the most ridiculous and internally contradictory (on multiple layers) concept ever publicised by the hindutva movement.
 
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One Arya I will accept is the lovely Aarya Ambekar :D

aarya-ambekar-1.jpg


aai_2020-1-8-7-59-55_thumbnail.jpg

Typical Indian post
 
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Too many religious nutjobs on this forum.
Let this be the honeypot for them to vent. We will take them on.
That way they will troll less on the other threads that really matter; such as estimating the circular error of probability of an MIRV while landing on co-ordinate :
(28.6311456, 77.2200373)

That's what I would like to talk about, which is my natural field of interest. Unfortunately all my efforts are directed at trolls.
 
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Too many religious nutjobs on this forum.

Logo_of_Dinkoism_from_Facebook_website.png

He who flyeth over the skies,
Spreading his holy red coat,
Over the fields of tapioca,
He weareth his underwear out,
And thus he projects his inner truths-
And thus he endorse you,
O worshippers of the mighty Dinkan , to be truthful and clear in your approach !
He hate no unbeliever, and he praises them for their honesty, As honest as his holy underwear!!!
 
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Religious conversions into new religions hardly find mainstream success in the subcontinent. They're like fringe groups. Ahmadiyya didn't fare well (did surprisingly well in Africa with around 8-10 million Ahmadis though).

Interesting link:
How the Arya Samaj was countered in Pakistan:
1927...the battle for Pakistan!
A fascinating account of the battle against the biggest conspiracy by the Arya Samaj in Pakistan
in 1927. A very devious and intelligent plot.
Nehru's observation is particularly revealing!
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September 22, 2020:
The British Raj was not limited to being only a political phenomenon in the Indian subcontinent but a phase that left social, religious, moral and geographical imprints on the collective psyche of the peoples of India.

For Muslims, India was a land that they had ruled for centuries and this inculcated in them a sense of deprivation of power and autonomy. As for Hindus, India was a sacred land that was at the heart of their faith; Hinduism and India – or Bharat – were inseparable entities. So, both the major stakeholders of the Indian subcontinent – Hindus and Muslims – battled the Raj in their own ways, although trying to collaborate where interests became common. The resistance towards the Raj, which was meant to be a common interest of Hindus and Muslims, remained weak and disorientated for the communal differences that erupted from time to time among themselves. These lines of communal differences were becoming established by the end of the nineteenth century, especially in northern India.

Hindus were in the overall majority in India but were a minority in the Punjab where Muslims formed the vast majority. Then there were Sikhs and Christians also and this made Punjab a melting pot of religions, languages and cultures; the latter two also seen as components of the former.

While Muslims and Christians actively proselytised their faiths and gained converts, Hindus upheld their non-proselytising characteristic which led to mass conversion of Hindus to the other two faiths. Feeling that Hinduism was – as Ganga Prasad Upadhayaya rightly put it – “a mouse-trap with the door turned inside out”, where one could leave but not enter again, there arose a movement called the Arya Samaj.

Jawaharlal Nehru described the character of the Arya Samaj movement in the most concise manner in his book The Discovery of India:

“The Arya Samaj was a reaction to the influence of Islam and Christianity, more especially the former. It was a crusading and reforming movement from within, as well as a defensive organisation for protection against external attacks. It introduced proselytisation into Hinduism and thus tended to come into conflict with other proselytising religions. The Arya Samaj, which had been a close approach to Islam, tended to become a defender of everything Hindu, against what it considered as the encroachments of other faiths.”

Too keenly focused on religious symbolism, the Arya Samajists placed at the heart of their faith a comparison between their founder, Swami Dyanand, and the founder of Islam, and between their Veda and the Holy Quran. Their trained missionaries, or updeshaks, developed a fashion of street preaching where they would use flowery language to lure the general public into converting to Arya Samaj. These debates, full of inflammatory statements against Islam, soon made their way into the Arya journalism and the obscenity was carried from the streets to print form which, naturally, was greater in outreach and effect, and also in injuring the sentiments of other faiths, especially those of Muslims.

Ram Ratan Bhatnagar, in his book The Rise and Growth of Hindi Journalism, notes:

“The bane of this style was that it was too emotional and irrational. It did not decorate itself with literary ornaments. Nor did it care much for accuracy.”

Swami Dayanand, the founder of the Arya Samaj, was deeply influenced by his guru, Swami Virjanand, who believed in cleansing India of all contaminating elements – like any other religion apart from Hinduism – and bringing back her glory of the pre-Krukshetra war recorded in the Mahabharata. This vision entailed an attempt to wipe out all faiths from the face of India, also giving the movement its militant character. Swami Dyanand’s death was followed by schism within the Samaj with the wing led by the likes of Pandit Lekhram who acquired a militant and violent approach particularly towards Islam. This aggressive approach continued to grow out of all limits of reason, sensibility and decency. The obscene and vulgar language against the God and the founder of Islam used in their street lectures and publications ought not to be repeated here, but can be read in the judgments given by courts in lawsuits filed by Muslims against the Aryas.

As mentioned above, Muslims and Hindus did occasionally form loosely bound coalitions where mutual benefits could be sought. One such venture was the Non-Cooperation Movement of Gandhi and the Khilafat Movement of the Muslims – both led by Gandhi.

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(Article by Hazrat Musleh-e-Maudra urging Muslims to voice their sentiments for the Holy Prophets s.a.w of Islam)
Hazrat Khalifatul Masih IIra had warned the Muslims that it was not advisable to go ahead with this alliance as no good results could be achieved through movements that were based on confused ideology. However, the infatuation that existed on both sides blindfolded the Hindus and the Muslims alike, and they decided to carry on rallying in the name of the two aforementioned movements. Later, as both the ventures collapsed and came to a shameful end, the Hindu-Muslim tension rose to new, irreparable levels.

The underlying factor in this rise of tension was, in the words of Wilfred Cantwell Smith, an “emotional frustration” that had turned the whole situation “morbid”. Shuddhi – the movement for the reconversion of Hindus – turned the situation even more sour.

Inflammatory literature continued to be published and distributed on a mass-scale. Reaction from Muslims was only but natural and there appeared on the religious scene of Punjab the Muslim response of similar scale and, in some cases, similar nature. The situation aggravated to a point in the 1920s when there appeared three published works by the Arya Samajists that resulted in eruption of conflict, violence and unrest, so much so that the government had to amend their laws to avoid similar situations in future. These three works by the Arya Samajists were: Vichitra Jivan by Pandit Kalicharan Sharma (1923); the book Rangila Rasul by Pandit Chamupati (1924); and, to add fuel to fire, an article titled SairiDauzakh by Devi Sharan Sharma in the monthly Risala-i-Vartman (issue, May 1927).

As soon as the article was published by Risala-i-Vartman, Hazrat Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad, Khalifatul Masih IIra wrote an article urging all Muslims, who claimed to love the Holy Prophetsa of Islam, to come forward and voice their injured feelings so as to be heard by official authorities. The article, titled Rasul-e-Karim ki Mahabbat key Dava Karney Waley Kiya ab bhi Beydar na Hongay?(Will Those Claiming Love for the Holy Prophetsa Still Not Wake Up?) was printed in poster form and exhibited all over India. The outcome of this poster was recorded by All India Reporter(Lahore, 1927) in the following words:

“Towards the end of May or very early in June a poster made its appearance in Amritsar. It is said to have been sent by the mirza of Qadian and, to have drawn attention to certain portions of this article and still further excited the Muslims.” It was acknowledged that “had it not been for the part played by the mirza of Qadian in sending a poster to Amritsar”, the article of Risala-i-Vartman may not have been seen as “highly inflammatory” by the law-enforcement agencies. The pressure from Arya Samaj circles led to the poster by Hazrat Khalifatul Masih IIraalso to be seen as “highly inflammatory” and being proscribed by the police, but it had served its purpose by awakening the Muslims from a slumber. GH Thursby mentions the huge impact of this poster in his book Hindu-Muslim Relations in British India:

Urdu poster was distributed in Amritsar which called the attention of Muslims to what were apparently the particularly objectionable portions of the article. The Mirza or leader of the Ahmadiyya Muslim sect at Qadian was the attributed source of the poster, which provoked protest meetings against the article and led to noticeable unrest among many of the Muslims of the city. Therefore, early in June a Muslim Deputy Superintendent of Police brought the article to the attention of the local government. This resulted in proscription of the May issue of the journal [Vartman] under section 99A of the Criminal Procedure Code. Then, on June 6th, prosecution under 153A of the Indian Penal Code was undertaken by the government. Both Gian Chand Pathak, who was the acknowledged editor, printer, and publisher of Vartman journal, and Devi Sharan Sharma, who was the alleged author of Sair-i-Dauzakh were arrested, and the Amritsar District Magistrate began to hear testimony within days of their arrest.”

The poster by Hazrat Khalifatul Masih IIra (also published in Al Fazl on 10 June 1927) had highlighted the passages that were extremely derogatory and ridiculed the persona of the Holy Prophetsa of Islam. The poster, in line with the teachings of the Promised Messiahas, did not call for violence but urged Muslims across the country to “not show aggression but, on the precepts of the Companions [of the Holy Prophetsa], uphold the honour of Islam…” Huzoorra urged that one way of doing so was by not strengthening the economy of Hindu businessmen and purchasing goods from Muslim traders instead. He clarified that “this [was] not a boycott, but preference” and no one had the right to raise objections on matters of choice in preference. He further urged that the true teachings of Islam should be propagated on mass-scale so as to demystify the misconceptions created by mischievous Arya writers and publishers. Huzoorra stated that should the Muslims unite to free themselves from the economic slavery of Hindus, the government, seeing that Muslims too could show unity, would start to take their opinion seriously.

However, the passages from the article Sair-i-Dauzakh that were highlighted in the poster by Hazrat Khalifatul Masih IIra were taken into account by the court and it was concluded by the judges on the bench that “prosecutable effect had indeed been produced by the words of the article [Sair-i-Dauzakh]”.

Having heard the case thoroughly, Justice Broadway found both the author and the publisher, Devi Sharan Sharma and Gian Chand Pathak respectively, guilty of the charges that had been brought against them. The author was sentenced to a year of rigorous imprisonment and a fine of five hundred rupees in lieu of an additional imprisonment of six months duration, and the publisher was sentenced to six months rigorous imprisonment and a fine of two hundred and fifty rupees in lieu of an additional three months of imprisonment. The case was concluded on 6 August 1927.
 
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Too many religious nutjobs on this forum.
Nope. The hidden truth is that there are too many pretend-secularists in this forum...the charming secular republic to our right seems to have suffered likewise in fact.
for Hindus, India was a sacred land that was at the heart of their faith; Hinduism and India – or Bharat – were inseparable entities
Very pointed statement. This is PRECISELY how the "look I'm secular, look I'm agnostic, look I'm atheist....look look look and love my enlightened moderation....but don't look when I cunningly rationalise gharwapsi and the hindutva driven violent conquest of Islamic India" Hindustanis think.
 
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Nope. The hidden truth is that there are too many pretend-secularists in this forum...the charming secular republic to our right seems to have suffered likewise in fact.
Which is a good point!
But responses to "one liner" will take up our energy which is exactly what the "one-line jockeys" want.
Returning to the topic.
Is it possible to get the Urdu copies of the pre-Partition Arya Samaj Urdu journals mentioned in the article above . 1927 Risala-e-Vartman. Couldn't find it on the Arya Samaj website ( Of course ! :cheesy:).
Those journals as hard copies should be in the public library archives somewhere in Pakistan unless they were destroyed during Partition. Should physically check.
The reason is important:
A past history of the movement will be useful to determine its assertiveness in this century. A lot of our Indian guests here inevitably bury the caste question by putting the Agniveer/ Aryaveer front.
In fact caste is very much a factor and there are only 8-9 (?) million Arya Samaj Sanatanis out of 1.14 billion Hindus globally.
Ironically the RSS and Arya Samaj seem to be falling apart:

 
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the hindutva driven violent conquest of Islamic India" Hindustanis think.
Help me with this please.

I don't know about your particular views but most son of the soil "non gangu" Pakistanis here (barring Muhajirs like me) have very disparaging and disgusting views about Indian Muslims. A weird victim blaming kind of approach where they blame "cowardly Indian Muslims" for daring to be attacked by Hindus. Completely ignoring that a large part of their second class status has to do with 1947. It's like asking a rape victim how dare she be raped

Members here openly and routinely claim they don't care if Hindus kill Muslims in India. Why the faux concern for what Hindus do to Muslims in India then? It's not about the people but the land and glory I presume?

@Naofumi @jamahir @xeuss
 
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Keywords: Arya Samaj, Aryaveers, Shuddhi Movement, Reconversion of Muslims, Arya Samaj activity in Pakistan (Punjab), Arya Samaj activity in Pakistan ( Sindh), Arya Samaj activity in India ( reconversion of Indian Muslims).
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Attention Mods: @krash @waz @The Eagle :
Only if you permit, I would like to revive this thread (or start a new thread), in response to our guests from India (below) and provide them a forum to voice their opinion on the key topics as above.
These guests repeatedly attempt to derail other threads with their assertions, and troll posts that Indian and Pakistani Muslims were earlier "Hindus" ( Sanatanis) and hence must convert back to "Hinduism" ( Sanatan Dharma) . Since the Arya Samaj movement in Pakistan and India espouses exactly such a theory this thread might be an appropriate place on this forum to discuss this topic, even though this thread discusses temples rather than the Arya Samaj reconversion movement.This was the closest thread I could find on the topic.
Would it be appropriate to rename this thread:

"Arya Samaj, the reconversion movement in Pakistan & India"

It is not intended to make this thread into a flame bait or troll dump but to restrict the discussion solely to the topic of the success (or otherwise ) of the Arya Samaj movement in Pakistan which was established in Lahore on 24 June 1877. The movement had started in India in Bombay in 1869 but it moved from a regional movement to a global effort after it was reformed and reorganized in Lahore. Given the fact that the Arya Samaj movement started in Pakistan and with the rise of Hindutva in India revisiting this trend is important since it has implications for Pakistan's security. The earlier attempts to reconvert Sindhi peasants and Rangar Muslims in Punjab were not very successful and reconversion activity declined after 1948. The current effort seems to be aimed at the secular or agnostic section of our urban educated society.

The thread is also intended to gather data provided by the Indian members here on how successful the movement has been in India and now that is joined with the Hindutva movement. The shuddhi movement started in Sindh and Punjab ( Pakistan) has now morphed into the gharwapasi movement in post-Independent India.

The discussions here may lead to ideological or religious topics which would be discussed without malice or insult solely on the basis of available knowledge with a strict adherence to forum rules.
As moderators would request you to closely monitor thus thread with the usual warnings and censures for forum rule violations. If the discussions get too volatile, the thread could be locked, though this is not likely because our Pakistani members would like to keep the tone of the discussion strictly academic.

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@achhu @Surya 1 @Bambi @MilSpec @Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8
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The posts from different threads are copied below:









My next post on this thread will be on the resistance to the Arya Samaj movement in Pakistan by the Ahmediyya community and a brief history till partition.
Would like inputs from @masterchief_mirza , @Cliftonite and others on this topic.
Please don't tag me in religious threads,

thanks
@AgNoStiC MuSliM have the rules changed?
 
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Help me with this please.

I don't know about your particular views but most son of the soil "non gangu" Pakistanis here (barring Muhajirs like me) have very disparaging and disgusting views about Indian Muslims. A weird victim blaming kind of approach where they blame "cowardly Indian Muslims" for daring to be attacked by Hindus. Completely ignoring that a large part of their second class status has to do with 1947. It's like asking a rape victim how dare she be raped

Members here openly and routinely claim they don't care if Hindus kill Muslims in India. Why the faux concern for what Hindus do to Muslims in India then? It's not about the people but the land and glory I presume?

@Naofumi @jamahir @xeuss
Cliftonite,
We are deviating, but I will answer your questions.
1. The word Muhajir should no longer be used. Pakistan has its share of immigrants just like the USA and Canada . A generation later the children of those who migrated proudly call themselves Americans or Canadians, not immigrants. Which is why I leave my own origins to guess work. We are all proud Pakistanis ( period).

2. We have already discussed Indian Muslims at length. They helped the establishment of Pakistan and paid a fearful price. They are fighting a grim battle for themselves and there is nothing Pakistan can do for them. We can sympathize but in silence as the enemy knows that to hurt Pakistan psychologically the easiest way is to torture, murder, and oppress Indian Muslims. We must not be seen to care even though we do. Indian Muslims can't fight for Pakistan because they do not control any geography other than the 70,000 fishermen living on the Laccative Islands . Even Kashmiris ( if we are to count them as IM ) are in a majority only in the valley. Other than that there are no cities, towns or regions where IMs are in a majority. For minority to fight in a majority environment is suicide. No minority population without a geographical footprint and access to an international border to a friendly state has ever won a conflict. Even Bangladesh though a Muslim Majority region is hemmed in and has no access to a friendly neighboring territory.
So to conclude:
1. Pakistan cannot help Indian Muslims.
2.Indian Muslims cannot help Pakistan.
Indian Muslims should not be reviled and cursed for not fighting for Pakistan.,

Now help me find Risala e Vartaman an Arya Samaj Urdu journal published from Lahore one hundred years back.,
 
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