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Towards a new & Improved Fauj

Readers Will note that som eof the ideas in the AVM's piece are already being incorporated -- and I think you will see more movement on these ideas - the positions expressed by Rafi Xeric and AM, as they relate to India, are interesting

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/105203-pakistan-army-employs-lessons-taliban-conflict.html

^^ Musey though i do not agree in totality with you that the thread you quoted is bearing testimony to the 'transformation' of Pak Fauj. But still i'll take that for the sake of discussion. Now if you compare the quoted article with my post # 106 you wont find much difference between the two. Moreover the quoted article dont make any mention of 'downsizing' or shifting of men and material from the eastern side either.

At best the article only reiterate upon the fact that the Pak Fauj is infact merely IMPROVING upon (equipment it either purchased, jugarded or developed during) it's initial transformation. Nothing else. You know, it's like upgrading to new MS Windows when the new (RC) version is out.

This further strengthens my argument that revolves around the point that the Fauj has indeed transformed well before the current suggestions started to pour in.
 
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Well, certainly, that is one reading of it and to the degree that you find your argument echoing in it, I'm sure it's gratifying - Lets hope events will continue to move in the direction of seeking the best solutions to evolving problems.
 
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I think that what Xeric is suggesting is more along the lines of: "There is no problem; even if there is a problem, we have already fixed it; thus there is no problem", and therefore disingenuous.
 
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The chances of that happening are less than the proverbial snowflake in Hell.

Think of it this way: WHY should the Brass allow this change to take hold? That will happen only if they either see, or are forced to see, the writing on the wall. The impetus for this change will come from the impending economic and social collapse, but then geopolitical realities will endanger the very existence of the State as it exists today. This brings us back full circle. The perception of this existential threat will force to Brass to hold on to the status quo.

Please try to respond to the CONTENT of my posts

What content is there in the first post quoted other than unsubstantiated opinion?

Is the military brass preventing the elected politicians from delivering on good governance? Is it the military brass preventing tax reforms and reforms in the public sector institutions? Is it the military brass that is 'ordering corruption' amongst the elected politicians?

Pray tell which of the current failures of the civilian government on the governance and socio-economic development front are due to the current 'military brass'?
 
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unsubstantiated opinion
?? Who dat?

And of course you are 100 percent on the money, so to speak - but then we should also be able to pose similar question to the armed forces without having our nationalism, patriotism and whatever being questioned as the "Stop Maligning" piece did --

After all who is preventing the army from .....

Fair?
 
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All these ridiculous arguments put up by Xeric and AM, do little to further our understanding of coming events inside Pakistan

Nice of you to call our arguments ridiculous when you haven't bothered to offer a rebuttal until this post ( and a pretty weak one at that) and indulged in 'airy fairy' rhetoric of 'love Pakistan vs hate India' etc.
-- to start off neither Xeric nor AM are persuaded that the principal enemy is thre Islamist insurgency.
That is a blatant and dishonest mischaracterization of our arguments and position, I suppose unsurprisingly since you have been unable to actually offer counterarguments to the points raised by us. Both of us recognize the extremist insurgency as a threat, but we also recognize India as a threat, and therefore our position is that both threats need to be catered to. In the context of COIN, Xeric and I have pointed out the COIN training and capacity building undertaken by the military already, the results it has delivered, and the continuing investment and focus on COIN training and capacity building. I have also pointed out how the use of the military as a COIN tool is reaching its pinnacle, and the need currently, in many of the FATA agencies and Swat, is for the civilian component of governance and security to step in and take over. It is those areas that currently are in need of greater reform and 'retooling', and even in that endeavor the military has played a significant role through training and equipping the FC and other local civilian law enforcement units. To this you, nor anyone else, has bothered to reply, merely continuing to regurgitate the same 'military must reform' rhetoric, seemingly without any comprehension about the counterarguments being made.

And then you have the temerity to just barge in and call our arguments 'ridiculous'. No sir, what is ridiculous and intellectually shallow are your posts so far, where you have offered nothing in the way of practical counterarguments and proposals, and chosen to take the route of spouting self-righteous, high flying ideological rhetoric about some future vision of Pakistan.
And really if you don't buy that basic premise, there is little to talk about - not suggesting that your position is devoid of substance, it's just not what the thread was about. India and adversary? Sure but that universe is not limited, tomorrow the list may include the US and NATO (as I am sure it will) but who are on the top of that list? No Indian is doing suicide ops in Pakistan -- anyway, if you are happiest using the Indian bogey, make hay while you can, because that game WILL evolve (that's that civilian politicos part of the AVM's paper) -- I suggest we love Pakistan more and hate India less - but you don't have to be persuaded by that (it's just that soon you will find that any other position will become very difficult indeed, only a change in civilian politics will effect that.
Again, if you would actually be bothered to read and understand the arguments made by Xeric and I, you would see that we have made proposals to advance Pakistan's COIN operations and development, and have outlined how those proposals are in fact more necessary, and better, than what the AVM and you have argued. It is you who has chosen a route of obfuscation and disingenuous arguments, while ignoring the very tangible proposals made by us RELATED TO THE TOPIC.

Xeric argues as if the position is that the Fauj become solely a counter insurgency force - this is most certainly not the position the AVM is advocating -- And the Americans have zip, zero, to do with the position presented by the AVM -
If it is not he position that the AVM and you are articulating, then the Fauj is very much on its way to implementing a dual COIN and conventional training program and infrastructure, and its performance so far in Swat and FATA speak to the success of those policies. I fail to understand then what it is that the AVM and you wish to be seen done.

And AM's arguments that money can be raised by efficient management and selling off state assets, well, we all agree but lets be reasonable, the politics behind selling of state assets which are sources of patronage and through which bureaucrats become millionaires, well, if that was politically feasible it would have already happened.
And who is going to handle the resources freed up by any reduction in the defence budget? The very same 'bureaucrats and politicians' you scoff at. No angels are going to descend from heaven to handle new resources and reforms - it will be the same people, whether you look to free resources from the military or the civilian side. At last with the reforms on the civilian side, the magnitude of resources freed will be significant enough to still make a huge impact, and likely surpass any savings from reductions in the defence budget, even after all the corruption.

But lets grant that the govt really does succeed in dumping it's loss making properties, will that mean that military spending as a percentage of GDP will now be able to increase without incurring political punishment??? Of course not -- as soon as things start to improve, the demand for "more" of the good life will increase (to my thinking the only improvement for the armed forces may be the defense production sector, especially if they can sell this as a jobs scheme).
Speculative argument. Yes, the military may request more hardware (after all, despite Vinod's disingenuous claims of 'qualitatively similar, the PA, PAF and PN are nowhere on the radar in terms of military acquisitions, dollar amount or numbers, compared to India.) But the resources generated through the civilian reforms should be more than enough to cater to both substantially increased development budgets as well as military acquisitions.

See that bit about India not so much of an adversary - what's that about?? -- Well, for Pakistan to transition from a state in crisis, to one on a trajectory of economic growth, the threats environment will have to change - no two ways about - The Pakistan Fauj have already lost Pakistan both the initiative and the capability to sustain itself -- it's own dogs have now turned on the Fauj and the state and it's economy cannot rescue her state and the leadership of her armed forces, sustain their position through deals made with foreigners.
For the threat environment to change the Indians have to meet us half way - the whole thing about 'clapping with two hands not one'. Negotiations between the two sides are on, perhaps we will see breakthroughs in the next few years. Remember that it was under a Military government (Musharraf) that Pakistan and India came closer than they perhaps ever have in normalizing their relationship, and it was not the Pakistani military that broke off that engagement, but the Indians, ostensibly over concerns regarding the political instability in Pakistan.
Lets be real with each other - Bravdo aside, chest thumping and the once great professional Fauj - We are everyday crying about not getting this or that funds from the US to fight our/their war (we are on sides, so it's theirs and our war) how much longer can this go on?? Not much longer at all and again, it's got little to do with the US and every thing to do with the future of Pakistan and the kind of Pakistan we may luck out be able to create.
That is precisely why we need the reforms mentioned on the civilian side, sine the resources freed up more than surpass the 'aid+CSF' received from the US. Not only could we step up investment in development projects, but fund the war against extremism ourselves.
 
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?? Who dat?

And of course you are 100 percent on the money, so to speak - but then we should also be able to pose similar question to the armed forces without having our nationalism, patriotism and whatever being questioned as the "Stop Maligning" piece did --

After all who is preventing the army from .....

Fair?
Who is preventing the Army from what?

Please answer the questions posed in my reply to VCheng about who is responsible for flaws of the current elected politicians - I don't see the Army forcing them to act in the manner they are, or preventing them from enacting reforms.
 
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Goodness, must have struck a nerve - well lets deal with it - lets first do some business and then we'll move to the heart of the position, that is to say, that you seem not to agree that the principal enemy is the Islamist insurgency, but instead is India - Ok?

I do not think it's necessary to rebut things that do not require rebuttal - should govt do a better job at managing public enterprises? Sure - why would I want to rebut that?

Now, are you persuaded that the Islamist insurgency is the principal threat? Your arguments suggest, strongly that you are persuaded that India, not the Islamist are the major threat -- now if you say that this is not so, then one wonders why the positions you offer are developed around the Indian as a the principal threat and not the Islamist? There is a disconnect there and I don't know what to make of your protestations
 
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I don't see the Army forcing them to act in the manner they are, or preventing them from enacting reforms.

Must be some sort comprehension problem - I very much agree with your position -- and I'm suggesting that we allow the same for the army - is that fair?

Who is preventing the army from..... well, I think you are aware of the criticisms, in particular of incompetence, then there is the criticism of being overly political as if a political player in domestic politics, well, you are aware of these criticisms., we all are --- what's important is that you allow the same for the army that you seek for the politician and bureaucrats - Is that not fair?
 
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Who is preventing the Army from what?

Please answer the questions posed in my reply to VCheng about who is responsible for flaws of the current elected politicians - I don't see the Army forcing them to act in the manner they are, or preventing them from enacting reforms.

AM: Please allow me to clarify that I am NOT singling out the military for the mess in Pakistan.

The politicians have their share of the blame too. My contention is that the elite power structure has grown into a Hydra, with the various hideous heads taking turns at raping the people: Politicians, military, feudals, neo-industrialists, and the bureaucracy. If one traces family relationships and inter-marriages, one can easily see the extent of the mutual interests that perpetuate the whole system. WHO one knows is far more important than WHAT one knows.

This virtually guarantees that anyone allowed to take the reigns of power, whether civil or military, will not be permitted to make any lasting or significant changes, and ensures that the country remains a cesspool of graft, corruption and human misery, despite the oft-repeated boasting points of nuclear weapons, castle of Islam, the world's largest earth filled dam, vast deposits of coal and mineral riches, and etc. etc. as the list goes on.

I must admit, it is a great system, for those enjoying the fruits thereof. The pity is that the party may not be able to go on for very much longer.

Let me extend your argument a bit further: By the same token, it is NOT the US or any other foreign conspiracy that is preventing Pakistani from enacting reforms. In fact, the reality is quite the opposite.
 
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I think that what Xeric is suggesting is more along the lines of: "There is no problem; even if there is a problem, we have already fixed it; thus there is no problem", and therefore disingenuous.

Oh janday yaar...

How about you say..hmmm....There WAS a problem, and yes there was a problem and we have recognized it as a problem, have started working on it and by doing so have catered for the problem to an extent. We have still not rested as the rectification of this problem is an ongoing process and may be if we had funding to may be something like that the yanks have, we would have totally uprooted the presence of this problem by now. And yes we aint transferring monies from the eastern theater to the western theater for now, sorry.
 
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Goodness, must have struck a nerve - well lets deal with it - lets first do some business and then we'll move to the heart of the position, that is to say, that you seem not to agree that the principal enemy is the Islamist insurgency, but instead is India - Ok?
No, that is not OK, and your comprehension problems continue despite my clearly pointing out that both the extremist threat and Indian threat need to be catered to, and how they can both be addressed.

I do not think it's necessary to rebut things that do not require rebuttal - should govt do a better job at managing public enterprises? Sure - why would I want to rebut that?
The government doing a 'better job' at governing and managing public institutions and enterprises would then allow for the tackling of the extremist threat and development in Pakistan - so why call for making Pakistan vulnerable to aggression from India through an unnecessary transformation of its military into a police force?
Now, are you persuaded that the Islamist insurgency is the principal threat? Your arguments suggest, strongly that you are persuaded that India, not the Islamist are the major threat -- now if you say that this is not so, then one wonders why the positions you offer are developed around the Indian as a the principal threat and not the Islamist? There is a disconnect there and I don't know what to make of your protestations
Again, you either have serious comprehension problems or are deliberately obfuscating the issue and making disingenuous arguments.

I have pointed out several times now how reforms and better governance by our elected politicians would enable Pakistan to both tackle the extremist insurgency and focus on development, without making Pakistan vulnerable on our Eastern Front. You refuse to address those arguments, choosing to go on tangential diatribes and distortions.

Let me know when you are actually serious about having a discussion instead of running around in circles uttering nonsense.
 
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The Armed Forces for all their faults, are widely recognized both within and outside Pakistan as professional and efficient organizations, it is up to the other organs of the state to match or surpass them. And power structures are pretty same everywhere, every country on this has a political/elite class.
 
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Must be some sort comprehension problem - I very much agree with your position -- and I'm suggesting that we allow the same for the army - is that fair?
That is only fair if your criticizm is focused on the areas you mention below. Criticizing the Army for 'the lack of socio-economic development, poor governance etc.' when there is a civilian government running things, is dishonest. But on to the rest of your post:
Who is preventing the army from..... well, I think you are aware of the criticisms, in particular of incompetence, then there is the criticism of being overly political as if a political player in domestic politics, well, you are aware of these criticisms., we all are --- what's important is that you allow the same for the army that you seek for the politician and bureaucrats - Is that not fair?
The Army should not interfere in governance? Absolutely.
The Army should not usurp power and impose military rule? Absolutely.
The Army should continue to improve its operational abilities? Absolutely.

Where exactly have you hear either Xeric and I contest the above?

You distort and obfuscate sir - your, and VCheng's, earlier diatribe against the military was in the context of poor governance and socio-economic development, and when it as pointed out to you that the military had no role in 'forcing the elected politicians to govern ineptly, squander money and not focus on development', you chose to go off on another tangent.

The military needs to stay out of governance, and it needs to continue to improve its operational capabilities, both for COIN and conventional warfare.

The elected politicians need to improve their own governing capabilities and start delivering on reforms in various institutions and Public Enterprizes to raise the resources to fund development, military COIN and conventional capabilities, and reform civilian LEA's.
 
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The Armed Forces for all their faults, are widely recognized both within and outside Pakistan as professional and efficient organizations, it is up to the other organs of the state to match or surpass them. And power structures are pretty same everywhere, every country on this has a political/elite class.

Absolutely agree.

No one is denying the military does not have its flaws, but at the moment they pale in comparison to the flaws in the civilian institutions. The amount of resources we are hemorrhaging from the civilian institutions is simply unsustainable - billions of dollars, perhaps tens of billions when taking into account the indirect costs imposed.

There is no proper plan on the civilian side to step into areas cleared by the military and 'hold' them through the capacity building of local governance and security institutions.
 
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