Total indigenisation of Sukhoi Su-30MKI next year: HAL

[stevesteevy]

Only in the dreams of ignorant people such as yourself.
WKEa-R37PeU[/media] - Indo-US Red Flag Air Force Exercise Lecture 2008 Part 1
4ibgAQ7lv0w[/media] - Indo-US Red Flag Air Force Exercise Lecture 2008 Part 2

Only in the dreams of ignorant people such as yourself.
WKEa-R37PeU[/media] - Indo-US Red Flag Air Force Exercise Lecture 2008 Part 1
4ibgAQ7lv0w[/media] - Indo-US Red Flag Air Force Exercise Lecture 2008 Part 2

Quote :

Only in the dreams of ignorant people such as yourself.

Ignorance is not the parogative of Some one like your Imagination of others . Ignorance lies in Facts and detail .

Mind you I am yet so see a single word as answer from you rather than the video .

Let us go in to the detail of the video of Colonel Terrence Fornof, and evaluate his facts .

1. Colonel Terrence Fornof, says

The SU-30MKI uses Tumansky engines . He goes on to say that the Mig-21 Bison uses an Israeli radar .

The above fact is enough to evaluate and judge how Ingorent is he and you post his crap to prove my so called Ingorence .


The SU-30MKI uses 2x Lyulka/Saturn AL-31FP not Tumansky. It is the aircraft like Mig-21 which uses Tumansky engines not su 30 mki .

I REPEAT .

The SU-30MKI uses 2x Lyulka/Saturn AL-31FP not Tumansky

Even a kinder garden Kid in Aviation Circles knows this fact . Given all his ingorence which is evident from his own words, he goes on to speak as if he is the spokes person for Sukhoi and pretends that he knows every thing about Su- 30 mki .

2. Colonel Terrence Fornof, says

The Mig-21 Bison uses a F’16 radar built by Israeli .

You know there are limits to once ignorance . But this more that that . The above statement give how poor his knowledge was on Mig-21 Bison.

If he is Ignorent about Sukhoi's it does not stop their . It also extends to Mig's


The Mig-21 Bison of Indian Airforce uses a Phazotron Kopyo radar . Its is Russian radar and not an Israeli radar as the Igonerent general thinks .



Again He do not even know this basic fact goes on to speak as if he has the final word .

The real comedy is that he say's at the begining in the video

" I am not going to tell you guys any thing classified "

My A.S.S , He does not even know the above basic facts but thinks as if he is the mainframe of CIA and all the classified info in the world is in his head but will not reveal them . what a joke .


Contrary to unsolicited remarks by Colonel Terrence Fornof who was not directly linked to day to day operations at the exercises the Indian Air Force and its Su-30s more than made a mark during their stint in the United States.

3. Colonel Terrence Fornof,

First he said Su 30 mki uses Tumansky engines . Now he goes on to say ,


“ the Sukhoi engines need to be sent all the way back to russia for servicing”


WRONG ! In fact INDIA not only services engines but manufactures both su 30 mki and Mig 21 at LOCAL ENGINE MANUFACTURING DIVISION FACILITITY OF HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. Koraput, INDIA ).

Have a look at the below site of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd

Welcome to Engine Division, Koraput of HAL


In fact India manufactures the entire Su 30 mki literally from raw materials .

Given all his stupidity above he goes on to speak as if he knows how logistics related to defense aircraft like Su 30 mki is managed in India .

4. Colonel Terrence Fornof,



“ The Indians always operated only their experienced pilots against us “
“ But we comprised 80% of young in-experienced pilots ………………..”

What kind of crap is that ??

If there could be a lie that can show the un-professionalism of the Colonel Terrence Fornof then the above statement is a manifestation of that .

The fact is that Indian contingent to RED FLAG comprised of a mix to experienced and young pilots.

Air Force Third Sukhoi Squadron to be Based out of Pune | India Defence


"Our young IAF pilots (average age: late 20s) have done this with amazing dexterity," he said.

If India could send young IAF pilots to the other side of the world for RED FLAG what in the world would Hold IAF back to put its young pilots on its aircraft against USAF when things are held in India itslef.

No Air force in the world will put forward a bunch of only experience pilots in an air excerise .

Colonel Terrence Fornof words are nothing more than chest beating to shower praise on their army by him self .

5. Colonel Terrence Fornof,

“ We dominated to the point that we floored them and they said ................ "we don’t want any more of this ……….let get on to some thing else “


Again no professional Air force will say

“ lets get on to some thing else “

especially when confronted against any thing not familier to them in an air exercise.

Air exercise are venues for air forces to know

Other doctrines
Get to know others modes operandi
Gain knowledge on others tactics
Get to know about networks with in which the operate ( This case NATO which India is not part of )
Training methods
So on ………………….

The Colonel him self acknowledges that “ They were a very disciplined Unite “.

Now how the General contradict his own words .

When he uses words like “ we floored them” then he should have come up with some hard core information on the results to back his words .

With out any credible information to back his claim they are noting more that castles in the air .


Colonel Terrence Fornof,

They needed 1 minute spacing to takeoff .


Spacing take offs 1 minute apart was agreed to during the planning stages months earlier; I wonder why he's so ignorant of this?

There is no big rocket technology in taking off below one minute .

6. Colonel Terrence Fornof,

The Su 30 mki has turn rate of 22 to 22 degrees . The Raptor has a turn rate of 28 degrees .

Raptor was never meant to be an ultra maneuverable aircraft . It was made to be a steath aircraft .

It is Flanker that was made to be maneuverable like no other aircraft .

If stealth is the domain of Raptor the maneuverability is synonymous with Flanker .

As Raptor was made to be stealth it has less controlling surfaces . But Flanker has the privilage of better TVC and more controlling surfaces like the canards .

The aerodynamice for stealth and maneuverability are world apart .

one cannot have both on same plate .


Su 30 mki turn are is around 35 degrees and in some cases is more that that . No big secreats here .


7. Colonel Terrence Fornof,

Fratricide by IAF fighters


IAF did 'shoot down' some 'friendly aircraft'

That was assessed and attributed to the IAF not being properly networked. However, what the Colonel did not bring out were the two essential reasons for this.

Firstly, this occurred mainly when the AWACS was not available (unserviceable) and controlling was done by GCI. More significantly it happened during extremely poor controlling by their operators, this fact being acknowledged during debriefs and the controllers being admonished accordingly.


'Accents' were perhaps the main culprit here, which very often led to American controllers not being able to understand Indian calls.

In last 30 years hardly hand ful of non nato countries were invited for Red flag excerise .

It is for the very first time india is being invited . It was a big learning curve for IAF in understanting about the network, doctorine, terminologies etc.......................

Now having said IAF shot down some frendly aircraft , he fails to say the whole story .

Now hear this : the F-15C and other USAF fighters had the same number of fratricides as the IAF ! Considering they are well networked, yet their pilots shot down the same number of 'friendlies'.


This was not only a major concern but also turned out to be a major source of embarrassment as the USAF had everything -- Link 16, IFF Mode 4 etc and the IAF had nothing.


Under the Rules of Engagement, they did not even permit the IAF to use data link within themselves.


All cases of USAF fratricide were covered in the next day's mass briefing as lessons learnt by concerned aircrew. In the IAF, the incidents were covered by concerned controllers, and attributed to lack of adequate integration, excessive R/T congestion and poor controlling.



Gloating on cases of IAF fratricide is frivolous and unprofessional.


Now this by no means the end of my answer .


Now what did you say

“Only in the dreams of ignorant people such as yourself "

The question you have to ask is , Who is Ignorant ,

You are me ?

You go on to post that video full of crap to prove your ignorance .

Before you question others ignorance get your facts right and get a grip on your dreams .

.

 

[Khajur]

Only in the dreams of ignorant people such as yourself.
WKEa-R37PeU[/media] - Indo-US Red Flag Air Force Exercise Lecture 2008 Part 1
4ibgAQ7lv0w[/media] - Indo-US Red Flag Air Force Exercise Lecture 2008 Part 2

LiveFist Column: Vishnu Som first-hand on what really happened at Red Flag 08
Vishnu Som, Associate Editor and Senior Anchor at NDTV, was the only journalist from India at Red Flag 08, and in that sense, best placed to talk about what happened there. He sent us a very comprehensive comment to the last post on the leaked video controversy. Vishnu has allowed me to post his excellent comment here as a column. Thanks Vishnu!

For all of you who are out there in the internet world and who have an interest in the performance of the Indian Air Force at Red Flag 2008 .. I have a few remarks. As the only Indian journalist who spent a lengthy period of time at Nellis after being granted permission by both the Indian Air Force and the US Air Force, I was granted access to impeccable sources in both forces.

Whats more, I was able to independently corroborate this information with reliable, alternative sources. Several of the points I present here in the form of this post on the Bharat Rakshak forum will be compiled into an article which I will post on my company website ndtv.com. For those of you not familiar with the Indian media ... New Delhi Television (NDTV) is India's largest 24 hour news network and our website is one of the most viewed among news websites in the country. For the moment, I have decided not to do a television news report on this since I believe the contents of this post are too technical for a larger audience.

For starters ... and this cannot be stressed enough ... the Red Flag exercises were a brilliant learning experience for all the participants, not least of all the Indian Air Force which, over a period of time, has earned the reputation of being one of the world's finest operational air forces.

This was a reputation which was reinforced at Red Flag 2008, the world's most advanced air combat exercises where the Indian Air Force fielded a number of state of the art Sukhoi 30 MKI jets in addition to IL-76 transports and IL-78 mid air refuellers.

For other participants at the Red Flag exercises ... namely the South Korean Air Force, French and US Air Force ... the opportunity to train with a platform such as the Sukhoi 30 MKI was an opportunity which just couldn't be missed. This has a lot to do not just with the jet but also with the air force operating the fighter, a force which has made a mark as an innovative operator of fast jets.The US Air Force … the host of these exercises … was singularly gracious in its appreciation for the Indian Air Force contingent which came into Red Flag having trained extensively for the exercises not only back home but also at the Mountain Home Air Force base in the US.

Contrary to unsolicited remarks by certain serving US personnel not directly linked to day to day operations at the exercises … the Indian Air Force and its Su-30s more than made a mark during their stint in the United States.For starters … not a single Sukhoi 30 MKI fighter was `shot down’ in close air combat missions at the Mountain Home air base. In fact, none of the Sukhois were even close to being shot down in the 10 odd one on one sorties which were planned for the first two days of the exercises at Mountain Home. These one on one engagements featured USAF jets such as the F-15 and F-16 in close air engagements against the Su-30 MKI. The majority of the kills claimed in these engagements were granted to the Indian Air Force with the remainder of these being no-results. Indian Air Force Sukhois did use their famed thrust vectoring in these one on one engagements. Contrary to what may have been reported elsewhere … the Su-30 has a rate of turn of more than 35 degrees when operating in the thrust vector mode. In certain circumstances, this goes up substantially.

By the time the exercises at Mountain Home had matured … the Indian Air Force had graduated to large formation exercises which featured dozens of jets in the sky. In one of these exercises … the blue forces, of which the Indian Air Force was a part … shot down more than 21 of the enemy jets. Most of these `kills’ have been credited to the Indian Air Force.

By the time the Indian Air Force was ready for Red Flag, the contingent had successfully worked up using the crawl, walk, run principle. At Red Flag though, they found themselves at a substantial disadvantage vis a vis the other participants since they were not networked with AWACS and other platforms in the same manner in which USAF or other participating jets were. In fact, Indian Air Force Sukhois were not even linked to one another using their Russian built data links since American authorities had asked for specifics of the system before it was cleared to operate in US airspace. The IAF, quite naturally, felt that this would compromise a classified system onboard and decided to go on with the missions without the use of data links between the Sukhois.Neither was the Indian Air Force allowed to use chaff or flares, essential decoys to escape incoming missiles which had been fired by enemy jets. This was because the US FAA had visibility and pollution related concerns in the event that these were used in what is dense, busy air space in the Las Vegas region.

The Red Flag exercises themselves were based on large force engagements and did not see the Indian Air Force deploy thrust vectoring at all on any of the Sukhoi 30 jets not that this was required since the engagements were at long ranges.Though it is true that there were 4-5 incidents of fratricides involving the Indian Air Force at Red Flag … it is important to point out the following:In the debriefs that followed the exercises … responsibility for the fratricides were always put on the fighter controllers not the pilots. Its also important to point that unlike in Mountain Home, none of the Indian Air Force’s own fighter controllers were allowed to participate since there was classified equipment at Nellis used for monitoring the exercises. The lack of adequate controlling and the fact that Nellis fighter controllers often had problems understanding Indian accents (they had problems understanding French accents as well) resulted in a lack of adequate controlling in situations. Whats more … given the fact that the availability of AWACS was often low … the bulk of fratricides took place on days when the AWACS jet was not deployed. Whats important to remember though is that US participants in these exercises had a similar number of fratricides despite being fully linked in with data links and the latest IFF systems.

So was the Indian Air Force invincible at Red Flag. In a word … no. So yes, there were certainly days in which several Sukhoi jets were shot down. And there were others when they shot down many opposing jets. Ultimately though … the success of the Indian Air Force at Red Flag lay in the fact that they could meet their mission objectives as well, if not better, than any other participant. Despite the hot weather conditions, the IAF had a 95 per cent mission launch ratio, far better than some of the participants. And no one went into the exercises thinking the score line would be a perfect one in favour of the IAF. In fact … the IAF went into these exercises with an open mind and with full admiration of the world beating range at Nellis with an unmatched system of calibrating engagement results.Perhaps the most encouraging part of these exercises comes from the fact that the Indian Air Force’s young pilots … learnt from their mistakes, analysed, appreciated and came back strong. Mistakes were not repeated. In fact … the missions where the IAF did not fare well turned out to be immense learning experiences. At the end of the exercises … its more than clear that the IAF’s Su-30s were more than a match for the variants of the jets participating at the Red Flag exercises. Considering the fact that the central sensor of the Sukhoi, its radar … held up just fine in training mode …despite the barrage of electronic jamming augurs well for the Indian Air Force.

As for its young pilots … these are skills and experiences that they will take back to their squadrons … experiences which will be passed on to a whole new set of pilots who will come into the next set of exercises that much wiser.

livefist.blogspot.com/2008/11/livefist-column-vishnu-som-first-hand.html

 

[Chanakyaa]

The only major difference between an Su30 MKI and F22 raptor is Su30MKI lacks stealth and supercruise. As far as what ive heard, Su30 MKI's maneuverability rating is more than that of an F22.

Another difference is the Price.
The Actual price of each raptor is close to $250 Million +.
While MKI costs only $45 Million.

So you cn get 5 MKI's for the Cost of 1 F22.

F22 is far superior than MKI. MKI is derived from Su27, While F22 is a Brand New Platform.

 

[ebungo]

Quote :

Only in the dreams of ignorant people such as yourself.

Ignorance is not the parogative of Some one like your Imagination of others . Ignorance lies in Facts and detail .

Mind you I am yet so see a single word as answer from you rather than the video .

Let us go in to the detail of the video of Colonel Terrence Fornof, and evaluate his facts .

1. Colonel Terrence Fornof, says

The SU-30MKI uses Tumansky engines . He goes on to say that the Mig-21 Bison uses an Israeli radar .

The above fact is enough to evaluate and judge how Ingorent is he and you post his crap to prove my so called Ingorence .


The SU-30MKI uses 2x Lyulka/Saturn AL-31FP not Tumansky. It is the aircraft like Mig-21 which uses Tumansky engines not su 30 mki .

I REPEAT .

The SU-30MKI uses 2x Lyulka/Saturn AL-31FP not Tumansky

Even a kinder garden Kid in Aviation Circles knows this fact . Given all his ingorence which is evident from his own words, he goes on to speak as if he is the spokes person for Sukhoi and pretends that he knows every thing about Su- 30 mki .

2. Colonel Terrence Fornof, says

The Mig-21 Bison uses a F’16 radar built by Israeli .

You know there are limits to once ignorance . But this more that that . The above statement give how poor his knowledge was on Mig-21 Bison.

If he is Ignorent about Sukhoi's it does not stop their . It also extends to Mig's


The Mig-21 Bison of Indian Airforce uses a Phazotron Kopyo radar . Its is Russian radar and not an Israeli radar as the Igonerent general thinks .



Again He do not even know this basic fact goes on to speak as if he has the final word .

The real comedy is that he say's at the begining in the video

" I am not going to tell you guys any thing classified "

My A.S.S , He does not even know the above basic facts but thinks as if he is the mainframe of CIA and all the classified info in the world is in his head but will not reveal them . what a joke .


Contrary to unsolicited remarks by Colonel Terrence Fornof who was not directly linked to day to day operations at the exercises the Indian Air Force and its Su-30s more than made a mark during their stint in the United States.

3. Colonel Terrence Fornof,

First he said Su 30 mki uses Tumansky engines . Now he goes on to say ,


“ the Sukhoi engines need to be sent all the way back to russia for servicing”


WRONG ! In fact INDIA not only services engines but manufactures both su 30 mki and Mig 21 at LOCAL ENGINE MANUFACTURING DIVISION FACILITITY OF HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. Koraput, INDIA ).

Have a look at the below site of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd

Welcome to Engine Division, Koraput of HAL


In fact India manufactures the entire Su 30 mki literally from raw materials .

Given all his stupidity above he goes on to speak as if he knows how logistics related to defense aircraft like Su 30 mki is managed in India .

4. Colonel Terrence Fornof,



“ The Indians always operated only their experienced pilots against us “
“ But we comprised 80% of young in-experienced pilots ………………..”

What kind of crap is that ??

If there could be a lie that can show the un-professionalism of the Colonel Terrence Fornof then the above statement is a manifestation of that .

The fact is that Indian contingent to RED FLAG comprised of a mix to experienced and young pilots.

Air Force Third Sukhoi Squadron to be Based out of Pune | India Defence


"Our young IAF pilots (average age: late 20s) have done this with amazing dexterity," he said.

If India could send young IAF pilots to the other side of the world for RED FLAG what in the world would Hold IAF back to put its young pilots on its aircraft against USAF when things are held in India itslef.

No Air force in the world will put forward a bunch of only experience pilots in an air excerise .

Colonel Terrence Fornof words are nothing more than chest beating to shower praise on their army by him self .

5. Colonel Terrence Fornof,

“ We dominated to the point that we floored them and they said ................ "we don’t want any more of this ……….let get on to some thing else “


Again no professional Air force will say

“ lets get on to some thing else “

especially when confronted against any thing not familier to them in an air exercise.

Air exercise are venues for air forces to know

Other doctrines
Get to know others modes operandi
Gain knowledge on others tactics
Get to know about networks with in which the operate ( This case NATO which India is not part of )
Training methods
So on ………………….

The Colonel him self acknowledges that “ They were a very disciplined Unite “.

Now how the General contradict his own words .

When he uses words like “ we floored them” then he should have come up with some hard core information on the results to back his words .

With out any credible information to back his claim they are noting more that castles in the air .


Colonel Terrence Fornof,

They needed 1 minute spacing to takeoff .


Spacing take offs 1 minute apart was agreed to during the planning stages months earlier; I wonder why he's so ignorant of this?

There is no big rocket technology in taking off below one minute .

6. Colonel Terrence Fornof,

The Su 30 mki has turn rate of 22 to 22 degrees . The Raptor has a turn rate of 28 degrees .

Raptor was never meant to be an ultra maneuverable aircraft . It was made to be a steath aircraft .

It is Flanker that was made to be maneuverable like no other aircraft .

If stealth is the domain of Raptor the maneuverability is synonymous with Flanker .

As Raptor was made to be stealth it has less controlling surfaces . But Flanker has the privilage of better TVC and more controlling surfaces like the canards .

The aerodynamice for stealth and maneuverability are world apart .

one cannot have both on same plate .


Su 30 mki turn are is around 35 degrees and in some cases is more that that . No big secreats here .


7. Colonel Terrence Fornof,

Fratricide by IAF fighters


IAF did 'shoot down' some 'friendly aircraft'

That was assessed and attributed to the IAF not being properly networked. However, what the Colonel did not bring out were the two essential reasons for this.

Firstly, this occurred mainly when the AWACS was not available (unserviceable) and controlling was done by GCI. More significantly it happened during extremely poor controlling by their operators, this fact being acknowledged during debriefs and the controllers being admonished accordingly.


'Accents' were perhaps the main culprit here, which very often led to American controllers not being able to understand Indian calls.

In last 30 years hardly hand ful of non nato countries were invited for Red flag excerise .

It is for the very first time india is being invited . It was a big learning curve for IAF in understanting about the network, doctorine, terminologies etc.......................

Now having said IAF shot down some frendly aircraft , he fails to say the whole story .

Now hear this : the F-15C and other USAF fighters had the same number of fratricides as the IAF ! Considering they are well networked, yet their pilots shot down the same number of 'friendlies'.


This was not only a major concern but also turned out to be a major source of embarrassment as the USAF had everything -- Link 16, IFF Mode 4 etc and the IAF had nothing.


Under the Rules of Engagement, they did not even permit the IAF to use data link within themselves.


All cases of USAF fratricide were covered in the next day's mass briefing as lessons learnt by concerned aircrew. In the IAF, the incidents were covered by concerned controllers, and attributed to lack of adequate integration, excessive R/T congestion and poor controlling.



Gloating on cases of IAF fratricide is frivolous and unprofessional.


Now this by no means the end of my answer .


Now what did you say

“Only in the dreams of ignorant people such as yourself "

The question you have to ask is , Who is Ignorant ,

You are me ?

You go on to post that video full of crap to prove your ignorance .

Before you question others ignorance get your facts right and get a grip on your dreams .

.

A very good explanation Hope he understand it

 

[gogbot]

where can u read the de-brief for red flag ?

 

[Harisudan]

a very heart warming report after a long time...thanks bros...

 

[rcrmj]

alwyas fun to re-visit some of the indian threads with big 'wills'

 

[Tshering22]

alwyas fun to re-visit some of the indian threads with big 'wills'

You started it early. Appreciate it and getting inspired from it. Thanks for the inspiration.

 

[conworldus]

why digging a 2 year old thread. The MKI is not 100% indigenous yet.

 

[tvsram1992]

Lets hope IAF will not fight USA with its F22 & JSF & F18SH. huge nerwork of Awacs satalites etc.

Anybody else is game on for IAF has i see it including PLAAF

SU30MKI is the F22 of Asia until JSF arive in Japan 2015

No FGFA will beat it.

 

[Harisudan]

well said...some idiots thinks they own the whole world when they dont have control over their own dick.....Such a loser......first off its been a whole new
environment and the pilots have to get used to the new war games and tactics the the Americans did...

 

[Tija]

Nope, but that doesn't matter, does it?



Depends on your definition of "by far". Her enemies don't need superior systems from America, they can get systems that are good enough from plenty of other sources.

Forgot cope India where Su 30 MKI beat F-15E 9:1

 

[koushik]

My uncle's house is very near Kalaikunda AFB and that house rocks in the sound of the turbofans

during Indradhanush 2010 when the typhoons conducted low-level air duels the advantage of TVC showed and I had seen it.In a lot of cases when the MKI made TVC assisted maneuvers like the cobra turn and the Kulbit,the typhoon couldnt do anything about and would just fall to the MKI. however the most amazing air spectacle was a duo of an MKI and Mirage-2000 engaged two EFTs in a Thatch Weave maneuver.

 

[Abingdonboy]

My uncle's house is very near Kalaikunda AFB and that house rocks in the sound of the turbofans

during Indradhanush 2010 when the typhoons conducted low-level air duels the advantage of TVC showed and I had seen it.In a lot of cases when the MKI made TVC assisted maneuvers like the cobra turn and the Kulbit,the typhoon couldnt do anything about and would just fall to the MKI. however the most amazing air spectacle was a duo of an MKI and Mirage-2000 engaged two EFTs in a Thatch Weave maneuver.

You are very lucky to have witnessed such things. Usually (when there isn't a loud mouthed USAF officer in the mix) the results of such exercise remain very secret and are not publicised (I suppose to limit any possible embarrassment any side may feel as this is really more about making friendships then combat exercising). ,