To Understand Pakistan, 1947 Is The Wrong Lens

[gubbi]

He is entitled to his opinion - but given the history of East Pakistan and Siachen, Pakistan cannot base its defensive policies on the basis of 'feelings'. Engagement between the two nations that results in tangible improvements and changes in the dynamics on the ground would be the way to measure the reduction of a potential threat.

Mumbo jumbo for "yes we started the wars but failed in each of them, yet we will do it again in the future"?

Btw, the opinion of an ex-head of air-force of your country, who was/is privy to much more insider information than probably many here including you, is brushed aside just because it does not agree with your point of view? Who should we believe, an ex-air chief with substantial credentials or you?

Btw, what about events preceding '71 or your fascination with Kashmir?

Just like the way many here rabidly accuse India of committing "atrocities" - a term often abused here - in Kashmir and profess undying support for Kashmiris, India actually acted and was successful when confronted with a similar situation in the erstwhile EP. (bait- sry couldnt resist)

If events surrounding the birth of a nation and the very cause of its existence are apparently the "wrong lens" to view a nation, then please tell us, what is? Seriously, how would Pakistanis want Indians to define them? As the author says, Indians are the only people who can really understand Pakistan, and yet we have so many misunderstandings and mistrust between us, what part of our history should define our relationship?

 

[rajeev]

Did you even read the link you posted?

"I give a final estimate of Pakistan's democide to be 300,000 to 3,000,000, or a prudent 1,500,000 (line 82). "

'Between 300,000 and 3,00,000' - meaning he basically has no clue, and what evidence is he basing that on? Read through the excerpt of the HR commission I posted, it discusses some of the actual evidence that was used to arrive at the conclusions of how many killed etc. not merely speculation and guesstimates.

If you desire, you can follow the link I provided and read more of the report.

In the HR commission you have posted, it was a commission of Pakistan who were desperate to prove everything was done by Indian. Even today, people in Pakistan are in perpetual denial and perpetual victims of history!

Hamoodur Rahman was Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Pakistan and Vice Chancellor of Dhaka University. He moved to Pakistan and his son later become Chief justice at Lahore court. So he has stake in keeping BS on and is going on even today.

The link I gave you was an independent guesstimate of murders/rapes. You can also go through many other sources that claim the same thing.

Another Quote:

Time reported a high U.S. official as saying "It is the most incredible, calculated thing since the days of the Nazis in Poland."

Source:
Pakistan: The Ravaging of Golden Bengal -- Printout -- TIME

Another Quote:

Bangladeshi authorities claim that 3 million people were killed.

Another Quote:

The international media and reference books in English have also published figures which vary greatly from 200,000 to 3,000,000 for Bangladesh as a whole.

Source:
1971 Bangladesh atrocities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is another set of links:
Twentieth Century Atlas - Death Tolls

The Tilt: The U.S. and the South Asian Crisis of 1971

Archer Blood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/48048.pdf


Just because you are good man and you want to believe that Pakistan is innocent does not make it true. You have to a clear head and ability to grow up reading independent sources whether your prejudice make sense.

Just because the estimate can range from 500,000 to 8 million does not mean you will have to close your mind. As you know, people are not recording when one innocent is getting killed or his wife getting raped.

AM, I hope you should be open to atrocities committed by PA and not dismiss when everyone in the world agrees to it.

If you are not convinced still, I surely cant help it.

 

[zagahaga]

You mean about 2-3 million was killed/raped. This happened even before war started with India. India had problems of its own, but that has never has so many people got affected. Even when 100 people get attacked, there is outrage among most Indians. Pakistan starts broadcasting how atrocities are happening while conveniently forgetting what is going in their own country.


Which neighbor? China supporting groups against India?



Not Just Indians, most of the world acknowledges the Pakistan was massacred. Even US which was trying to help Pakistan during 1971 acknowledged it.

IThytENXWPM[/media] - An Indian Muslim's slap to Pakistan




Even Musharraf has acknowledged it. What more proof do you want?

YemB4kxPs5o[/media] - Pervez Musharraf Grilled by Questions fired at him Part-1

wow i bet you one thing that mullah got paid alot to say that

 

[Nomad]

I don't think terrorist attacks in India have ever gone uncondemned in Pakistan, both by the intelligentsia and the government and institutions.


Barring 1971 there was no defeat - stalemates in the other two wars, though some argue that had India continued in 1965 it could have won, but that enters the realm of coulda woulda shoulda.


He is entitled to his opinion - but given the history of East Pakistan and Siachen, Pakistan cannot base its defensive policies on the basis of 'feelings'. Engagement between the two nations that results in tangible improvements and changes in the dynamics on the ground would be the way to measure the reduction of a potential threat.

AM,
On the first one give me a few links.

On the second my views are still open......

On the third it is not his opinion he was making a statement of facts. I will respect the statements of the Air Marshal of any country with a professional air force as Pakistan. I am opening a new thread to get more opinions as that is exactly what your and my comments are.

 

[sensenreason]

The explanation of 1971 defeat as the cornerstone of Pakistan's distaste and distrust of India and its unstated policy to draw equal (take revenge for it) with India (or eat grass) is a good theory.

But, two things beg some answers. Why was East Pakistan discriminated by West Pakistani's? Why the genocide? (Surely, religion is'nt the answer). Secondly,given 71 was preceded by wars also...so the question is

Does Pakistan and do Pakistani people believe Indians and Bangladeshies to be their equals - Man to Man (or woman to woman)? The answer to this question is the key to the future of whether Pakistan can live in peace with India.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Mumbo jumbo for "yes we started the wars but failed in each of them, yet we will do it again in the future"?

On the contrary, the above is dissemblance of the highest degree, since aside from 71, India won no war.

Btw, the opinion of an ex-head of air-force of your country, who was/is privy to much more insider information than probably many here including you, is brushed aside just because it does not agree with your point of view? Who should we believe, an ex-air chief with substantial credentials or you?

You should believe the serving military chiefs - when they declare no threat exists, I'll believe it.

Btw, what about events preceding '71 or your fascination with Kashmir?

Just like the way many here rabidly accuse India of committing "atrocities" - a term often abused here - in Kashmir and profess undying support for Kashmiris, India actually acted and was successful when confronted with a similar situation in the erstwhile EP. (bait- sry couldnt resist)

J&K is disputed territory, accepted by the GoI in the UNSC. EP was sovereign, undisputed Pakistani territory.

If events surrounding the birth of a nation and the very cause of its existence are apparently the "wrong lens" to view a nation, then please tell us, what is? Seriously, how would Pakistanis want Indians to define them? As the author says, Indians are the only people who can really understand Pakistan, and yet we have so many misunderstandings and mistrust between us, what part of our history should define our relationship?

Read the first post...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

In the HR commission you have posted, it was a commission of Pakistan who were desperate to prove everything was done by Indian. Even today, people in Pakistan are in perpetual denial and perpetual victims of history!

Hamoodur Rahman was Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Pakistan and Vice Chancellor of Dhaka University. He moved to Pakistan and his son later become Chief justice at Lahore court. So he has stake in keeping BS on and is going on even today.

The link I gave you was an independent guesstimate of murders/rapes. You can also go through many other sources that claim the same thing.

Another Quote:

Source:
Pakistan: The Ravaging of Golden Bengal -- Printout -- TIME

Another Quote:


Another Quote:

Source:
1971 Bangladesh atrocities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is another set of links:
Twentieth Century Atlas - Death Tolls

The Tilt: The U.S. and the South Asian Crisis of 1971

Archer Blood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/48048.pdf


Just because you are good man and you want to believe that Pakistan is innocent does not make it true. You have to a clear head and ability to grow up reading independent sources whether your prejudice make sense.

Just because the estimate can range from 500,000 to 8 million does not mean you will have to close your mind. As you know, people are not recording when one innocent is getting killed or his wife getting raped.

AM, I hope you should be open to atrocities committed by PA and not dismiss when everyone in the world agrees to it.

If you are not convinced still, I surely cant help it.

Read through the HR excerpt I posted - it lays out clearly the evidence that was used to arrive at the conclusions it did, and I highlighted some of those sections. At the very least, I would like to see what evidence the other claims are based on.

In addition, the HR report was kept classified by the GoP until Musharraf, because it was a damning indictment of the Pakistani military and leadership. It did not hide the fact that atrocities were committed, but it did clarify the extent.

It remains the most comprehensive and thorough analysis of the events in 1971, based on empirical evidence - there was no genocide committed and no where close to the numbers killed as claimed by some.

 

[New Shivaji]

Anyone who thinks India will stop harming Pakistan and Indians will stop hating Pakistan, well that anyone will be either deaf and dumb or plain idiot

The same is the case with Indians. Given an opportunity pakistan would like to see maximum pain to India.

Lets hope a time will come when we will bit more appreciative and trustful of each other.

 

[EjazR]

Well the author is entitled to their views, but from my experience the majority of Indians look at Pakistan not through 1947 or 65 but through 1999, 2001-2, and the 2008 lens. Especially the young generation.

Sure there might be fringe groups who might have some far fetched agenda of Akhand Bharat, but likewise there are many groups who were until recently state sponsored who wrongly believe in GhazwatuHind and the like and range from people like Zaid Hamid to the so called Jihadi groups.

 

[EjazR]

wow i bet you one thing that mullah got paid alot to say that

You can keep dreaming and think that

or

you can wake up realize the truth in what he said and change your mentality.

 

[Spring Onion]

The same is the case with Indians. Given an opportunity pakistan would like to see maximum pain to India.

Lets hope a time will come when we will bit more appreciative and trustful of each other.

Given the history, it was your leaders mainly the founding leaders of India who were predicting and conspiring to break Pakistan.

hence we are more justified in not considering India as our friend neither you can given the tactic you are using to harm Pakistan at every level.


Indeed lets hope that one day there could be any trust but at the moment there is none

 

[Khajur]

Given the history, it was your leaders mainly the founding leaders of India who were predicting and conspiring to break Pakistan.

hence we are more justified in not considering India as our friend neither you can given the tactic you are using to harm Pakistan at every level.


Indeed lets hope that one day there could be any trust but at the moment there is none

Just watch this video of ur mentor. And listen to what this mad man is saying...and anyone who says that he represent a minority view,then its plain lying,becasue the unrestricted way he is making absurd statements aganist india everyother week infront of educated young pakistanis ,its reveals the deep seated fear , angst and hatred they feel towards india in only manifested in zaid hamids monologues.

Come on, let me ask u which indian leader u hate most ?? Narendra modi.

Can u show one video where he or any other indian leader threatens pakistan in manners zaid Hamid did here??

 

[zagahaga]

You can keep dreaming and think that

or

you can wake up realize the truth in what he said and change your mentality.

wow ok mother india get your head out of la la land and smell the coffie beace you know and i know that muslims are treated like dirt in india i heard it from my friends that went their fot vacation your india just loves to cover it self up to hide the truth

 

[rajeev]

 

[bones20]

Indians certainly do care. Pakistan has been on the Indian mind since the moment of their co-creation. India and Pakistan are like two ends of a thread tied in a fantastic Gordian knot; their attachment magically survives their severance. And how the love grows! The recent Jaswant Singh controversy over Jinnah only partially unveiled how Pakistan is critical to the ideological coherence of Indian nationalism in both its secular and Hindutva varieties. But behind this veil, Pakistan has always been internal to Indian politics. It should come as no surprise then that establishment Indians (bureaucratic and political elites, intellectuals, media types, and the chattering classes) are well-versed in the nuances of Pakistani society. Indians understand Pakistan like no one else does, or can.

All wrong. Normal people dont know anything about Pakistan. We dont have any INTERNALnews on Pakistan, their media or their entertainment. Most Indians will not even know the geographical make up of Pakistan. The only thing we know of Pakistan are that there was partition, there is dispute, there were wars and there is terrorism oozing from Pakistan. To be honest, normal Indians dont want any relations (and from what I gather, this Indian arrogance irrtates Pakistan no end) with Pakistan except the opportunists likes of Bollywood and Modi. A neutral observer would easily note that Pakistan is a jealous, obsessed, insecured and guilty neighbour

Still, there is this curious blind spot: no one in India appears to remember 1971. Worse, no one seems to think it relevant.
It is for this reason that while the intellectual classes in Pakistan, especially the English language press and prominent university scholars, have almost always condemned their state’s involvement in terrorist activity inside India proper, they have remained largely quiet concerning Kashmir. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Kashmir does not seem so different to them than East Pakistan.

Yes we dont. You asked for it. you got it. All the wars - you started it, we ended it apomp

It is for this same reason that there was no great outcry about the isi’s supposed involvement in the bombing of the Indian embassy in Kabul. The general sense among the educated elites was that India deserved it for trying to “encircle” Pakistan through Afghanistan.

India needs stable Afghanistan for trade route and internal security so that Pakistan doesnt cultivate its terroists seeds there.

This leads to the third, and perhaps the most important point. The Indian establishment does not see Pakistan as a ‘normal’ society.

Yes it is not. A society which sympathizes with any kind of jihadism/terrorism is not normal

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Jai Hind!!!