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times change, viewpoints too (about Iran and China)

You are brainwashed. All you said are fake news. All the information you got about China is from your media. When I saw how western media reported China, I always felt angry about how shameless they are. China in western media is totally different from China I know.
speak for your self dear.. i think it's *you* who is so brainwashed that you actually like the CCP propaganda and hardliners.
that also makes discussing things with totally pointless.

evidence? see https://www.google.com/search?q=chi...LnKQKHSfwACcQ_AUoAXoECA8QAw&biw=2412&bih=1278
 
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Well done, whether your newfound views are correct or not I cannot say but it is impressive you are willing to change such a fundamental POV. Very brave of you to share this with others as well. For other members I request please respect @PeaceGen 's wishes.
 
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@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan brother,

The guy is saying that there are different versions of Quran. :lol:

So basically nothing changed, what is the purpose of this thread.

Thanks for the tag.

I put this nut back on ignore.

There is only one Quran, Sunni and Shia follow the same Islam and the Quran. Differences are very minor.
 
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speak for your self dear.. i think it's *you* who is so brainwashed that you actually like the CCP propaganda and hardliners.
that also makes discussing things with totally pointless.

evidence? see https://www.google.com/search?q=chi...LnKQKHSfwACcQ_AUoAXoECA8QAw&biw=2412&bih=1278
What that photo represents? You mean there are no Uygur criminals in China? Matter of fact, Uygur has highest crime rate in China. 10 years ago, when you mentioned 新疆人(people from Xinjing) in China, the first word in Chinese mind was "thief".

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and for the record : why don't all those peaceful muslims do something to stop their violent brothers and sisters?
I am a Pakistani Muslim. more then 5,000 of my Pakistani Muslim Soldiers have given their lives fighting against these terror Groups. more then 20,000 Civilian MUSLIMS lost their lives. the 10 years from 2005 to 2015 was a nightmare for me and my people.
REAL BLOOD was sacrificed fighting this menace. Real Lives were Lost. Precious lives. School children were massacred by Terrorists in my country. My own relative lost their lives in suicide blast.
How else are we suppose to DO SOMETHING to stop these terrorists?.
What st**** Sh** are you talking about? like you are some holy crusader fighting for holy cause against Terrorists. And we here who are actually Fighting this hell are the convicts.
You have done nothing against Terrorism let alone defending your NATO countries (Unless you are a listed Recruit in Armed Forces). You are living a peaceful life in a peaceful first world country. You have not seen the death and destruction of this monster like We Pakistanis have seen, Or the Iraqis or Syrians etc.
And who the hell are you to call them our brothers and sisters?
I cannot say about Arab world.But in Pakistan, This menace was left over by Cold war Politics by USSR and USA. Literally Billions of Dollars were flooded into this region to promote Jihad-ism Against Atheist Socialists. And after the collapse of Communists, The Developed Capitalist world left this Monster they created to grow in this Underdeveloped region for 2 decades.
And here we have a European lecturing about Terrorism and calling Terrorists our Brothers who have not seen a single day in fear of Terrorist Attack or seen single incident of Bloody massacre done by these Hell hounds (I Hope you have not seen any such incidence).
 
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I am a Pakistani Muslim. more then 5,000 of my Pakistani Muslim Soldiers have given their lives fighting against these terror Groups. more then 20,000 Civilian MUSLIMS lost their lives. the 10 years from 2005 to 2015 was a nightmare for me and my people.
REAL BLOOD was sacrificed fighting this menace. Real Lives were Lost. Precious lives. School children were massacred by Terrorists in my country. My own relative lost their lives in suicide blast.
How else are we suppose to DO SOMETHING to stop these terrorists?.
What st**** Sh** are you talking about? like you are some holy crusader fighting for holy cause against Terrorists. And we here who are actually Fighting this hell are the convicts.
You have done nothing against Terrorism let alone defending your NATO countries (Unless you are a listed Recruit in Armed Forces). You are living a peaceful life in a peaceful first world country. You have not seen the death and destruction of this monster like We Pakistanis have seen, Or the Iraqis or Syrians etc.
And who the hell are you to call them our brothers and sisters?
I cannot say about Arab world.But in Pakistan, This menace was left over by Cold war Politics by USSR and USA. Literally Billions of Dollars were flooded into this region to promote Jihad-ism Against Atheist Socialists. And after the collapse of Communists, The Developed Capitalist world left this Monster they created to grow in this Underdeveloped region for 2 decades.
And here we have a European lecturing about Terrorism and calling Terrorists our Brothers who have not seen a single day in fear of Terrorist Attack or seen single incident of Bloody massacre done by these Hell hounds (I Hope you have not seen any such incidence).
what st**** sh** am i talking about? how about all of the sacrifices made by NATO soldiers in all of the military operations listed at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_terror ???

and while i thank the *few* muslim military sacrifices that have been made against terror groups, they remain only token efforts.

in reality, you let groups like alQuada grow in your countrysides, you let them attack western and Israeli targets, and then you call in NATO to clean up the mess, offering only token support.

i am sick and tired of having to answer guys like you, who blame western nations and Israel for all the things that are wrong in the Muslim regions of this world..

once again, 2 billion muslims in this world, and the vast vast majority of you just stand by giggling "secretly" whenever a western target gets hit by muslim terrorists or rogue nations like Iran.

DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, PLEASE.

What that photo represents? You mean there are no Uygur criminals in China? Matter of fact, Uygur has highest crime rate in China. 10 years ago, when you mentioned 新疆人(people from Xinjing) in China, the first word in Chinese mind was "thief".

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View attachment 652527 View attachment 652528 View attachment 652529 View attachment 652530
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that seems like very lame propaganda to me, dear.
very transparent in fact.
 
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what st**** sh** am i talking about? how about all of the sacrifices made by NATO soldiers in all of the military operations listed at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_terror ???

and while i thank the *few* muslim military sacrifices that have been made against terror groups, they remain only token efforts.

in reality, you let groups like alQuada grow in your countrysides, you let them attack western and Israeli targets, and then you call in NATO to clean up the mess, offering only token support.

i am sick and tired of having to answer guys like you, who blame western nations and Israel for all the things that are wrong in the Muslim regions of this world..

once again, 2 billion muslims in this world, and the vast vast majority of you just stand by giggling "secretly" whenever a western target gets hit by muslim terrorists or rogue nations like Iran.

DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, PLEASE.


that seems like very lame propaganda to me, dear.
very transparent in fact.
Your Whole perception of looking into this matter is wrong. Their is no such thing as Unified MUSLIM NATION. their are so many countries and regions with their own problems and interests. their are GCC Arab states, Their is Iran, their is Turkey, Their are African Muslim Countries like Algeria, Their is Pakistan, their are Far Eastern Muslim states like Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei. Their are Central Asian States and So on. No two countries are same. Or have Similar Problems or Policies.
I am a Muslim and i am talking about my country Pakistan. I don't care about Your Beloved Israel. Its thousands of Kilometres away from Us. Or Iran and its policies in Middle East. neither am i discussing that here. I live in South Asia and My Country is a 220 Million Muslim Nation.
I am talking about your Blatant Disrespect to our martyrs calling it TOKEN contribution. No NATO soldier ever landed in our country to fight any war. We fought our own war with our own soldiers and Resources despite of so much backstabbing and Double Games(Again not the topic here). Neither do we need anyone's Approval or Appreciation or Instructions.
You posted a Wikipedia Article here to prove a point?
Here is some reading for you as well
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurgency_in_Khyber_Pakhtunkhwa
Let me tell you how this menace is created. Europe was once held by Powerful Dynasties. then Came World War 1. And the Status Quo was literally destroyed. the Vacuum that was left created the Worst Terrorist Organisation mankind have ever seen after the Mongol Horde(According to your Own European Authors) i.e the Nazis and Fascists. Could you people Possibly defeat Them without the Events of World war 2 and Direct Involvement of USA and USSR?
Look at what happened in Libya. Were there any size able terrorist breeding ground in Libya before Qaddafi was Literally Murdered by NATO Airstrikes? Who toppled a functioning Libyan Government to replace it with Mafias and Warlords? and who is to blame if it becomes Al qaida Stronghold now?
Were there any ISIS before Baathist Iraqi Government was forcefully Removed from Iraq by NATO?
Were there any Jihadist/ISIS in Syria before the blatant Intervention in Syria by Whole DEVELOPED World?
Were their any Jihadist Networks in Pakistan/Afghanistan before the Soviet Intervention in Afghanistan and then Subsequent CIA led Operations to Raise the Far Right Jihadi Legions to Counter Godless Communists?
Although all above governments were Anti-Pakistan as they were pro Soviet and Pakistan was in Western Camp but just to make a point think about it.
Don't Drag Israel in it to Defend Stupid Policies of Western Countries. Israel have nothing to do with these Hawkish Adventures by Your NATO Spearheads i.e USA/UK/FRANCE
Afghanistan Iraq Syria were Secular Countries before Russian/American Intervention in these Countries. At least accept these Blunders made by your Governments.

Taliban/ISIS/Bokoharam etc etc etc are killing Muslims every day not Europeans. Keep closing your eyes like a pigeon.
I reiterate. You have no Idea sitting in safety of a developed country how living in fear of Terrorists attacks is. As for Contribution of NATO against Terrorists, I again say in Pakistan and this region, USA is sitting in Afghanistan for 20 Years and i Don't know what they are doing there. With all their Technology and Military Advancements, It is still a Terrorism Hub with no stability to be seen.
 
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Your Whole perception of looking into this matter is wrong. Their is no such thing as Unified MUSLIM NATION. their are so many countries and regions with their own problems and interests. their are GCC Arab states, Their is Iran, their is Turkey, Their are African Muslim Countries like Algeria, Their is Pakistan, their are Far Eastern Muslim states like Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei. Their are Central Asian States and So on. No two countries are same. Or have Similar Problems or Policies.
I am a Muslim and i am talking about my country Pakistan. I don't care about Your Beloved Israel. Its thousands of Kilometres away from Us. Or Iran and its policies in Middle East. neither am i discussing that here. I live in South Asia and My Country is a 220 Million Muslim Nation.
I am talking about your Blatant Disrespect to our martyrs calling it TOKEN contribution. No NATO soldier ever landed in our country to fight any war. We fought our own war with our own soldiers and Resources despite of so much backstabbing and Double Games(Again not the topic here). Neither do we need anyone's Approval or Appreciation or Instructions.
You posted a Wikipedia Article here to prove a point?
Here is some reading for you as well
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurgency_in_Khyber_Pakhtunkhwa
Let me tell you how this menace is created. Europe was once held by Powerful Dynasties. then Came World War 1. And the Status Quo was literally destroyed. the Vacuum that was left created the Worst Terrorist Organisation mankind have ever seen after the Mongol Horde(According to your Own European Authors) i.e the Nazis and Fascists. Could you people Possibly defeat Them without the Events of World war 2 and Direct Involvement of USA and USSR?
Look at what happened in Libya. Were there any size able terrorist breeding ground in Libya before Qaddafi was Literally Murdered by NATO Airstrikes? Who toppled a functioning Libyan Government to replace it with Mafias and Warlords? and who is to blame if it becomes Al qaida Stronghold now?
Were there any ISIS before Baathist Iraqi Government was forcefully Removed from Iraq by NATO?
Were there any Jihadist/ISIS in Syria before the blatant Intervention in Syria by Whole DEVELOPED World?
Were their any Jihadist Networks in Pakistan/Afghanistan before the Soviet Intervention in Afghanistan and then Subsequent CIA led Operations to Raise the Far Right Jihadi Legions to Counter Godless Communists?
Although all above governments were Anti-Pakistan as they were pro Soviet and Pakistan was in Western Camp but just to make a point think about it.
Don't Drag Israel in it to Defend Stupid Policies of Western Countries. Israel have nothing to do with these Hawkish Adventures by Your NATO Spearheads i.e USA/UK/FRANCE
Afghanistan Iraq Syria were Secular Countries before Russian/American Intervention in these Countries. At least accept these Blunders made by your Governments.

Taliban/ISIS/Bokoharam etc etc etc are killing Muslims every day not Europeans. Keep closing your eyes like a pigeon.
I reiterate. You have no Idea sitting in safety of a developed country how living in fear of Terrorists attacks is. As for Contribution of NATO against Terrorists, I again say in Pakistan and this region, USA is sitting in Afghanistan for 20 Years and i Don't know what they are doing there. With all their Technology and Military Advancements, It is still a Terrorism Hub with no stability to be seen.
First, let me thank you for your honest, insightful reply. You raise many valid points here that i had forgotten to factor into my reasoning.

However, after giving your post considerable thought all day today, i have the following counter to you :

The slogan to get WW1 started in Europe was "the war to end all wars".
Then, somehow, we ended up with a WW2 anyway.
The jews made the slogan "never again" after WW2, and finally, after many thousands of years, received the right to start their homeland Israel, with western military backing.

I think now that the war spread from europe into the middle east and africa and south america and even asia (Vietnam war, among other regional wars that are not forgotten here in the west, because when we lose troops, we honor them whenever appropriate, when the war has it's "anniversary" (which is kind of like a birthday or end day of the war in question)).

You say that NATO just installs puppet governments and overthrows governments, seemingly without just cause.
However, what you might be forgetting is that we in the west work with short term and long term contracts, agreements, laws.

When these contracts are violated, we issue public warnings, and prepare for economic or real-world war.
Like we are doing now "against" Venezuela, Iran and China.

Russia seems to finally letting go of their desire to export Marxism by force, so we are giving the Russians plenty of breathing space and space to regrow their forces, hoping they learn from histories that are only decades ago. If they don't, we'll need to give them another lesson in who is ultimately the strongest, and again, it won't be pretty for the ones in the war zones.

However, our media industries DO teach our citizens to care for the suffering, the needy, the oppressed.
And we DO, as an alliance of nations, grant groups that go against dictatorial police states, the same breathing- and regrowth-space.

We do NOT however, suffer from grandeur, from ego diseases. While it may SEEM so at the surface sometimes, we KNOW that we can not fix the entire world. All we can do is aim for less wars (which saves *us* a lot of grief and worries too), and less long period of tensions.

So ehm, we redraw borders on the map sometimes, and this causes much grief to the ones in the regions where the borders are getting redrawn. Or we let a group, with our eventual full backing, take over the reigns of power over an existing country, and save everyone the griefs of having to actually redraw borders on the map, which is known as 'the less violent option', something we're a big fan of ever since the massive grief of WW1 and WW2.

We issue public warnings, we let our strict cops and bad cops in our militaries prepare all sorts of very nasty offensive weaponry, but we also see to it that our offensive weaponry is kept under lock and key. To do that, we use our free speech and our media industries, our news industries, and our politicians. Not to mention those anniversaries in which we show our respect for the fallen and the suffering and the oppressed, whether they are alive today, dead already, or about to get "the treatment" (the nastier treatments i mean by that).

You Muslims, seem to be stuck in a struggle to determine who has control over your resources, your populations, which Quran ultimately becomes that desired one-Quran-for-all (which we think is impossible to achieve by the way, given how many muslims and muslimas already walk the Earth), and your political, military and police powers.
Which is not entirely surprising (to me). Ever since we started a war between "the west" and many-muslims over the creation of Israel and the prices of oil and all that is related to that power struggle between western christian democratic/republican powerful families and powerful muslim families, the world has been at war, in various degrees of intensity per decade.

And now China has declared itself atheist and on the war path by creating a large military navy, a rail road system that spans into all of western Europe, hoping to force or lure Europeans to accept Chinese made goods.
We saw Hitler do the same thing with "his" Germany just before WW2 started. First that ***hole builds a large road network, then he uses it to drive tanks very quickly (the "blitzkrieg" principle which translates as "lightning military thrust" principle) into all of Europe, large parts of Africa, with the stated and ultimate goal of annihilating the Jewish people.

Frankly, we are not going to let the new team of "mischievous countries" (countries that disobey the laws of reason and justice) aka Venezuala, Iran and China, ruin the world with their grandeur moves of starting an international alliance that builds up an ICBM program, nuclear enrichtment, long distance sea travel, etc.

we have learned, in the hardest of ways, not to allow such developments to grow beyond the point where we have to fix it with a large scale regional prolonged war (like what happened in Vietnam).

and you should know, we live in the age of biological warfare now.
meaning tourism and business travel, a vital source of revenue for entire countries, can be used against entire nations, even selectively. The Chinese know this too. They delayed information about their own COVID-19 outbreak, so that this disease could spread through cruise ship passengers and air travel passengers to the entire richer world.

wars will always remain ugly and very very worrisome.

the rich will probably find reasons to keep using the entire populations of their countries, regardless of who they work for, as cannon fodder against eachother and against eachother's interests.

but what we as common people CAN do about this, is to have polite public conversations about this from the comfort of our own police-power secured homes, to hopefully acknowledge (one day) the mistakes that our own "team", our own government or our own political or religious group, makes, and in doing so, we become the teachers of those who hate other groups too much.

Good bye for now,
i'm looking forward to your next reply (if you want to make one of course),
and do take your time to review my viewpoints here.

To be in a hurry always leads to the risk of making serious mistakes.

i'd like to add one more thing to this reply :

it may seem that China, Iran and Venezuela are "simply" starting a military + civilian space program.
and *i* would allow them to do that.

however, many in my own alliance of countries, are too afraid of serious tensions that could lead to nuclear and large scale prolonged regional wars, so i *do* consider myself "under orders to be distrusting of these entire developments".

i do remain willing to be a true friend to the Venezualian, Iranian and Chinese governments, as well as a loyal citizen of NATO.
 
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@PeaceGen Why do you always include the Dutch government in your crazy rants?
because we have a civilized government that can serve as a shining example to some other countries that are not as peaceful as we are, that's why.

and eh, you're much more crazy than i've ever been or will be.
you blindly hate, hoping to provoke others into hating as well. *THAT* is far more crazy than what i try to do here on this forum.
 
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First, let me thank you for your honest, insightful reply. You raise many valid points here that i had forgotten to factor into my reasoning.

However, after giving your post considerable thought all day today, i have the following counter to you :

The slogan to get WW1 started in Europe was "the war to end all wars".
Then, somehow, we ended up with a WW2 anyway.
The jews made the slogan "never again" after WW2, and finally, after many thousands of years, received the right to start their homeland Israel, with western military backing.

I think now that the war spread from europe into the middle east and africa and south america and even asia (Vietnam war, among other regional wars that are not forgotten here in the west, because when we lose troops, we honor them whenever appropriate, when the war has it's "anniversary" (which is kind of like a birthday or end day of the war in question)).

You say that NATO just installs puppet governments and overthrows governments, seemingly without just cause.
However, what you might be forgetting is that we in the west work with short term and long term contracts, agreements, laws.

When these contracts are violated, we issue public warnings, and prepare for economic or real-world war.
Like we are doing now "against" Venezuela, Iran and China.

Russia seems to finally letting go of their desire to export Marxism by force, so we are giving the Russians plenty of breathing space and space to regrow their forces, hoping they learn from histories that are only decades ago. If they don't, we'll need to give them another lesson in who is ultimately the strongest, and again, it won't be pretty for the ones in the war zones.

However, our media industries DO teach our citizens to care for the suffering, the needy, the oppressed.
And we DO, as an alliance of nations, grant groups that go against dictatorial police states, the same breathing- and regrowth-space.

We do NOT however, suffer from grandeur, from ego diseases. While it may SEEM so at the surface sometimes, we KNOW that we can not fix the entire world. All we can do is aim for less wars (which saves *us* a lot of grief and worries too), and less long period of tensions.

So ehm, we redraw borders on the map sometimes, and this causes much grief to the ones in the regions where the borders are getting redrawn. Or we let a group, with our eventual full backing, take over the reigns of power over an existing country, and save everyone the griefs of having to actually redraw borders on the map, which is known as 'the less violent option', something we're a big fan of ever since the massive grief of WW1 and WW2.

We issue public warnings, we let our strict cops and bad cops in our militaries prepare all sorts of very nasty offensive weaponry, but we also see to it that our offensive weaponry is kept under lock and key. To do that, we use our free speech and our media industries, our news industries, and our politicians. Not to mention those anniversaries in which we show our respect for the fallen and the suffering and the oppressed, whether they are alive today, dead already, or about to get "the treatment" (the nastier treatments i mean by that).

You Muslims, seem to be stuck in a struggle to determine who has control over your resources, your populations, which Quran ultimately becomes that desired one-Quran-for-all (which we think is impossible to achieve by the way, given how many muslims and muslimas already walk the Earth), and your political, military and police powers.
Which is not entirely surprising (to me). Ever since we started a war between "the west" and many-muslims over the creation of Israel and the prices of oil and all that is related to that power struggle between western christian democratic/republican powerful families and powerful muslim families, the world has been at war, in various degrees of intensity per decade.

And now China has declared itself atheist and on the war path by creating a large military navy, a rail road system that spans into all of western Europe, hoping to force or lure Europeans to accept Chinese made goods.
We saw Hitler do the same thing with "his" Germany just before WW2 started. First that ***hole builds a large road network, then he uses it to drive tanks very quickly (the "blitzkrieg" principle which translates as "lightning military thrust" principle) into all of Europe, large parts of Africa, with the stated and ultimate goal of annihilating the Jewish people.

Frankly, we are not going to let the new team of "mischievous countries" (countries that disobey the laws of reason and justice) aka Venezuala, Iran and China, ruin the world with their grandeur moves of starting an international alliance that builds up an ICBM program, nuclear enrichtment, long distance sea travel, etc.

we have learned, in the hardest of ways, not to allow such developments to grow beyond the point where we have to fix it with a large scale regional prolonged war (like what happened in Vietnam).

and you should know, we live in the age of biological warfare now.
meaning tourism and business travel, a vital source of revenue for entire countries, can be used against entire nations, even selectively. The Chinese know this too. They delayed information about their own COVID-19 outbreak, so that this disease could spread through cruise ship passengers and air travel passengers to the entire richer world.

wars will always remain ugly and very very worrisome.

the rich will probably find reasons to keep using the entire populations of their countries, regardless of who they work for, as cannon fodder against eachother and against eachother's interests.

but what we as common people CAN do about this, is to have polite public conversations about this from the comfort of our own police-power secured homes, to hopefully acknowledge (one day) the mistakes that our own "team", our own government or our own political or religious group, makes, and in doing so, we become the teachers of those who hate other groups too much.

Good bye for now,
i'm looking forward to your next reply (if you want to make one of course),
and do take your time to review my viewpoints here.

To be in a hurry always leads to the risk of making serious mistakes.

i'd like to add one more thing to this reply :

it may seem that China, Iran and Venezuela are "simply" starting a military + civilian space program.
and *i* would allow them to do that.

however, many in my own alliance of countries, are too afraid of serious tensions that could lead to nuclear and large scale prolonged regional wars, so i *do* consider myself "under orders to be distrusting of these entire developments".

i do remain willing to be a true friend to the Venezualian, Iranian and Chinese governments, as well as a loyal citizen of NATO.
What is WRONG with you with all these conspiracy theories. :blink:
First you were a skeptical European, then you jumped to Israeli Defender in a conversation where Israel wasn't even a Subject Matter. And now this Neo Globalist Conspiracy theory Spaghetti with chunks of China and Venezuela.
You are the First European i have talked to who thinks like this. What is this Political Philosophy called? Europeans are always nationalists and talk about there own country and its history. What is your obsession with NATO China Israel sitting in Netherlands, A country almost Insignificant in modern Military history of Europe.
Get a Life man. Enjoy the time you have in this life. Hang out with some cool friends. Get Rid of Toxic company.
Stay blessed.
 
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What is WRONG with you with all these conspiracy theories. :blink:
First you were a skeptical European, then you jumped to Israeli Defender in a conversation where Israel wasn't even a Subject Matter. And now this Neo Globalist Conspiracy theory Spaghetti with chunks of China and Venezuela.
You are the First European i have talked to who thinks like this. What is this Political Philosophy called? Europeans are always nationalists and talk about there own country and its history. What is your obsession with NATO China Israel sitting in Netherlands, A country almost Insignificant in modern Military history of Europe.
Get a Life man. Enjoy the time you have in this life. Hang out with some cool friends. Get Rid of Toxic company.
Stay blessed.
it's called a mix of globalism, combined with a measure of humanism and skepticism.

it's actually quite common over here, how else would we be able to shelter so many immigrants?
however, you'll find that most of us humanists do not talk on forums like these, where we encounter mostly the foolish haters of this world.

but i'll give it a rest, until i'm provoked again.

and i have a life, btw :) i have friends and a loving lady by my side :)
so i won't forget to have fun. don't you worry.

i hope you stay blessed too, friend from afar :)
 
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