Featured Time to bury the past and move forward: COAS Bajwa

[Vanamali]

Pakistan should restart armed support for Kashmiris, because Indians will whine about Pakistan no matter what we do.

And get declared as terrorist state???

 

[arjunk]

And get declared as terrorist state???

... did Pakistan get declared a terrorist state despite decades of India's randi rona?

 

[Samurai_assassin]

How are they able to even suggest making peace when india has a factory of false information in EU nations relating to Pakistan?

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

Nothing in Simla overrides the UNSC Resolutions - this is just Indian spin. The Simla Agreement in fact reiterates the commitment of both countries to abide by the UN Charter, which includes abiding by the UNSC Resolutions on the disputed territory of Jammu & Kashmir that both countries committed to.

Pakistan is an Islamic Republic, but none of the political parties that have taken power have belonged to the right-wing religious fringe, nor are they ideologically linked to the right-wing religious fringe.

Threat assessments are not going to be based on the declarations of anonymous users on an internet forum.

You can claim XYZ till the cows come home (no pun intended), but the links between the Indian government and extremist, expansionist hate-mongering right-wing fringe organizations are well known on this side, as are frequent statements by the Indian government leadership and fringe organizations that support the Pakistani contention of a lack of acceptance of the existence of the Pakistani State.

Basic text of Shimla agreement for your reference.

The Government of India and the Government of Pakistan are resolved that the two countries put an end to the conflict and confrontation that have hitherto marred their relations and work for the promotion of a friendly and harmonious relationship and the establishment of durable peace in the subcontinent so that both countries may henceforth devote their resources and energies to the pressing task of advancing the welfare of their people.[3]

In order to achieve this objective, the Government of India and the Government of Pakistan have agreed as follows:

(i) That the principles and purposes of the Charter of the United Nations shall govern the relations between the two countries.[3]

(ii) That the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations or by any other peaceful means mutually agreed upon between them. Pending the final settlement of any of the problems between the two countries, neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation and both shall prevent the organization, assistance or encouragement of any acts detrimental to the maintenance of peace and harmonious relations.[4][3]

(iii) That the prerequisite for reconciliation, good neighborliness and durable peace between them is a commitment by both the countries to peaceful coexistence respect for each others territorial integrity and sovereignty and noninterference in each others internal affairs, on the basis of equality and mutual benefit. That the basic issues and causes of conflict which have bedeviled the relations between the two countries for the last 25 years shall be resolved by peaceful means.[4]

(iv) That they shall always respect each others national unity, territorial integrity, political independence and sovereign equality.[3]

(v) That in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, they will refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of each other.

Both governments will take all steps within their power to prevent hostile propaganda directed against each other. Both countries will encourage the dissemination of such information as would promote the development of friendly relations between them.

In order progressively to restore and normalize relations between the two countries step by step, it was agreed that:

(i) Steps shall be taken to resume communications, postal, telegraphic, sea, land, including border posts, and air links, including over flights.[4][3]

(ii) Appropriate steps shall be taken to promote travel facilities for the nationals of the other country.[4]

(iii) Trade and cooperation in economic and other agreed fields will be resumed as far as possible.[4]

(iv) Exchange in the fields of science and culture will be promoted.[3]

In this connection delegations from the two countries will meet from time to time to work out the necessary details.

In order to initiate the process of the establishment of durable peace, both the governments agree that:

(i) Indian and Pakistani forces shall be withdrawn to their side of the international border.[4]

(ii) In Jammu and Kashmir, the line of control resulting from the ceasefire of 17 December 1971, shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognized position of either side. Neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally, irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations. Both sides further undertake to refrain from the threat or the use of force in violation of this line.[4][3]

(iii) The withdrawals shall commence upon entry into force of this agreement and shall be completed within a period of 30 days thereof.[4]

This agreement will be subject to ratification by both countries in accordance with their respective constitutional procedures, and will come into force with effect from the date on which the instruments of ratification are exchanged.[4]

Both governments agree that their respective heads will meet again at a mutually convenient time in the future and that in the meanwhile the representatives of the two sides will meet to discuss further the modalities and arrangements for the establishment of durable peace and normalization of relations, including the questions of repatriation of prisoners of war and civilian internees, a final settlement of Jammu and Kashmir and the resumption of diplomatic relations.[4]

Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto
President
Islamic Republic of Pakistan

Indira Gandhi
Prime Minister
Republic of India

Simla, 2 July 1972.

— Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, Indira Gandhi.[2]

It's pretty much clear. The point one refers to general areas of cooperation will be done as per UN resolutions to begin with.
Point 2 states on the issues of any "bilateral disputes" has to be resolved bilaterally.
This point was negotiated hard between Soviets, US and India. Indira was gunning for your portion of Kashmir. So Indira was forced to accept point 2 in exchange for giving up her original demand.

Tbh Shimla Agreement was put to shreds the day Musharraf decided to occupy Kargil in 1999. Even 2019 did not involve change in territory.
Anyway we can keep arguing all day. IK had burned his bridges for peace when he called filthy language for Indian leaderships. Congress party and Left parties also abuse him pretty badly. At the end of the day they are Indians and have the right to do so. Pakistan doesnt.

 

[HammerHead081]

Wouldn't be surprised if India doesn't want peace because they have little reason to trust us anymore after everytime we wouldn't engage in dialogue with them after they would want it, once when talks happened... army betrayed govt. and attack them in 1999. Also we initiated almost all wars ourselves, 1965 operation in Kashmir, 1999 operation in Kargil. 1971 was a complex issue. 1948 our tribes attacked.

Though the only solution to solve this issue is to make current borders permanent.

India had always a defensive policy towards Pakistan until Modi came, now they are a bully and we are getting taste of our own medicine. So much arrogance in us that we can win Kashmir through war, we were in a higher position than them until 1990s. Army literally destroyed us, wouldn't let civil govt. solve Kashmir issue.

Now when India has become a bully, our army has faced reality now how much out of our league they are due to their shear size, forced to come to table for dialogue.

 

[MilSpec]

what class and ideology is ruling in India ... ???

What's the relevance of the class and ideology ruling India vis-a-vis relations with Pakistan?

 

[Sine Nomine]

Basic text of Shimla agreement for your reference.

The Government of India and the Government of Pakistan are resolved that the two countries put an end to the conflict and confrontation that have hitherto marred their relations and work for the promotion of a friendly and harmonious relationship and the establishment of durable peace in the subcontinent so that both countries may henceforth devote their resources and energies to the pressing task of advancing the welfare of their people.[3]

In order to achieve this objective, the Government of India and the Government of Pakistan have agreed as follows:

(i) That the principles and purposes of the Charter of the United Nations shall govern the relations between the two countries.[3]

(ii) That the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations or by any other peaceful means mutually agreed upon between them. Pending the final settlement of any of the problems between the two countries, neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation and both shall prevent the organization, assistance or encouragement of any acts detrimental to the maintenance of peace and harmonious relations.[4][3]

(iii) That the prerequisite for reconciliation, good neighborliness and durable peace between them is a commitment by both the countries to peaceful coexistence respect for each others territorial integrity and sovereignty and noninterference in each others internal affairs, on the basis of equality and mutual benefit. That the basic issues and causes of conflict which have bedeviled the relations between the two countries for the last 25 years shall be resolved by peaceful means.[4]

(iv) That they shall always respect each others national unity, territorial integrity, political independence and sovereign equality.[3]

(v) That in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, they will refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of each other.

Both governments will take all steps within their power to prevent hostile propaganda directed against each other. Both countries will encourage the dissemination of such information as would promote the development of friendly relations between them.

In order progressively to restore and normalize relations between the two countries step by step, it was agreed that:

(i) Steps shall be taken to resume communications, postal, telegraphic, sea, land, including border posts, and air links, including over flights.[4][3]

(ii) Appropriate steps shall be taken to promote travel facilities for the nationals of the other country.[4]

(iii) Trade and cooperation in economic and other agreed fields will be resumed as far as possible.[4]

(iv) Exchange in the fields of science and culture will be promoted.[3]

In this connection delegations from the two countries will meet from time to time to work out the necessary details.

In order to initiate the process of the establishment of durable peace, both the governments agree that:

(i) Indian and Pakistani forces shall be withdrawn to their side of the international border.[4]

(ii) In Jammu and Kashmir, the line of control resulting from the ceasefire of 17 December 1971, shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognized position of either side. Neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally, irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations. Both sides further undertake to refrain from the threat or the use of force in violation of this line.[4][3]

(iii) The withdrawals shall commence upon entry into force of this agreement and shall be completed within a period of 30 days thereof.[4]

This agreement will be subject to ratification by both countries in accordance with their respective constitutional procedures, and will come into force with effect from the date on which the instruments of ratification are exchanged.[4]

Both governments agree that their respective heads will meet again at a mutually convenient time in the future and that in the meanwhile the representatives of the two sides will meet to discuss further the modalities and arrangements for the establishment of durable peace and normalization of relations, including the questions of repatriation of prisoners of war and civilian internees, a final settlement of Jammu and Kashmir and the resumption of diplomatic relations.[4]

Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto
President
Islamic Republic of Pakistan

Indira Gandhi
Prime Minister
Republic of India

Simla, 2 July 1972.

— Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, Indira Gandhi.[2]

It's pretty much clear. The point one refers to general areas of cooperation will be done as per UN resolutions to begin with.
Point 2 states on the issues of any "bilateral disputes" has to be resolved bilaterally.
This point was negotiated hard between Soviets, US and India. Indira was gunning for your portion of Kashmir. So Indira was forced to accept point 2 in exchange for giving up her original demand.

Tbh Shimla Agreement was put to shreds the day Musharraf decided to occupy Kargil in 1999. Even 2019 did not involve change in territory.
Anyway we can keep arguing all day. IK had burned his bridges for peace when he called filthy language for Indian leaderships. Congress party and Left parties also abuse him pretty badly. At the end of the day they are Indians and have the right to do so. Pakistan doesnt.

Funny isn't that soon after this agreement Bharat started planning for Operation Meghdoot.

Wouldn't be surprised if India doesn't want peace because they have little reason to trust us anymore after everytime we wouldn't engage in dialogue with them after they would want it, once when talks happened... army betrayed govt. and attack them in 1999. Also we initiated almost all wars ourselves, 1965 operation in Kashmir, 1999 operation in Kargil. 1971 was a complex issue. 1948 our tribes attacked.

Though the only solution to solve this issue is to make current borders permanent.

India had always a defensive policy towards Pakistan until Modi came, now they are a bully and we are getting taste of our own medicine. So much arrogance in us that we can win Kashmir through war, we were in a higher position than them until 1990s. Army literally destroyed us, wouldn't let civil govt. solve Kashmir issue.

Now when India has become a bully, our army has faced reality now how much out of our league they are due to their shear size, forced to come to table for dialogue.

Tum pedashi chutiya hou ya baad mai koi course kiya hai?

 

[HammerHead081]

Tum pedashi chutiya hou ya baad mai koi course kiya hai?

What sort of language is this, if you find anything wrong with my opinion then comment on it rather than acting like bakths across the border.

 

[Sine Nomine]

What sort of language is this, if you find anything wrong with my opinion then comment on it rather than acting like bakths across the border.

That's sort of langauge people like you understand.
How strange you wrote same gibberish what Bharatis often propagate online.

 

[Death Professor]

That's sort of langauge people like you understand.
How strange you wrote same gibberish what Bharatis often propagate online.

wonder if I have had conversation with the person before? I have a faint memory of doing so. Just ask the person if he accepts 1973 constitution along with 1974 constitutional amendment of Pakistan. You will get the answer.

 

[Sine Nomine]

wonder if I have had conversation with the person before? I have a faint memory of doing so. Just ask the person if he accepts 1973 constitution along with 1974 constitutional amendment of Pakistan. You will get the answer.

He is either a follower of famous british poodle or a false flagger.

 

[SQ8]

What's the relevance of the class and ideology ruling India vis-a-vis relations with Pakistan?

The common residence flag you and I share clearly had very different relationships with Russia based on the class and ideology ruling it.
So that does factor a lot into international relationships.

 

[MilSpec]

The common residence flag you and I share clearly had very different relationships with Russia based on the class and ideology ruling it.
So that does factor a lot into international relationships.

Except for the polar opposite of current dispensation that much of the narrative is based against, dealt the most damage to Pakistan.
USA is different beast altogether, it might serve us well to remember which side the US was on before 45...

 

[HRK]

What's the relevance of the class and ideology ruling India vis-a-vis relations with Pakistan?

I don't think you don't understand the role of Ideology in Global Politics .... ??? anyone with basic knowledge of Global Political history understand the importance of Social and Political Ideologies in Global Politics.

My dear If you want to object on my post and want to criticise my line of thinking then do it but at least on genuine grounds rather to object just for sake of objection ....

 

[HRK]

1965 operation in Kashmir, 1999 operation in Kargil. 1971 was a complex issue. 1948 our tribes attacked.

Wow SELF HATRED of some members are astonishing .... 1971 was a complex issue .... so there was no negative role of India in fact 1971 is the first and classic case of STATE SPONSORED CROSS BORDER TERRORISM but no it was just a complex case let us hid Indian role under the rug by using term it JUST A COMPLEX CASE .... this is right approach

And the reference of 1948 role of Tribes ... wow again self defeating and self hating line of thinking ... do these people even know when Massacre of Muslims was occurred in Jammu and when tribes get involved .... ??? are they even aware of timeline of the events ..... ???

but they have audacity to criticise the response and reactions of State of Pakistan to the situations it faced.