This Is the Ultimate MiG-21

[Zhukov]

Ahmadnawaz.

Nobody said outdated.

I certainly did not imply this.

You came to that conclusion yourself.

That is what you mean friend. By simply stating all 4th generation fighters are tail less (by showing 3 4th gen fighters and trying to put your tejas in the same league of rafale EF and Gripen in the mean time )
and trying to say JF17 is based on outdated f5 and also saying f16 design is outdated. For the reason that it is Tail less. whear as the most advance fighters in the world all are TAILED. only a few are tail less. It is no criteria of a good plane.
No offence but don't mess whole of the aero sciences just to undermine anything relating to Pakistan lolz
Cheers

 

[Viper0011.]

for me the JF17 looks similar to the F5 & F16 family

NOTHING LIKE THESE BELOW

gripen

Tejas

J10

Typhoon

RAFALE


These are five 4th generation fighters that are ALL TAILESS

UNLIKE THE THUNDER WHICH COPIES THE USA F5 & F16 CONCEPT ABOVE

Since all these have delta winds and I assume your point you were silently trying to make was to let readers think of the LCA......is it safe to say in your opinion that JFT is an upgraded Mig-21 and so using the same logic, the LCA is a downgraded Gripen NG or Mirage 2005-9?? Makes perfect sense.

Well I hate to bust your bubble. The 4th Gen doesn't mean its "tailless" You are JUST showing designs that are tailless and have 4th gen capabilities i.e. the avionics, flight controls, and speed / maneuverability. The airframe doesn't decide the generation. I can copy the -22 and use Aluminum on it, instead of Stealth composites, put a DX-86 processor and have the Radar range down to 20 miles like the first gen -16's. So does that mean the Raptor's lookalike is still a 5th Gen place? No, I brought it down to the 1st or 2nd gen fighter even if it looks exactly like the Raptor.

This has been said before many times on here, the Northrop Grumman was initially contracted by the Chinese and the Pakistanis for design aid. Their star plane back then was the -5 and the -20. Pakistanis had tremendous experience with the Star-fighter -104. They were very impressed with its speed and agility although there was lack of weapons and loads. Initially, what's known as JFT today, was supposed to have a mix of the -104, -5 and was supposed to have multi-role, back then state of the art -20's avionics and upgrades.

That didn't fly due to the sanctions applied on China and then on Pakistan. So, the design then further changed and evolved to include latest airframe proven models by the Chngdu (I believe is the manufacturer?), at this point, it included the DSI and LERX, etc, from the -18.
Now its a cross between -5, -20, -16 (avionic wise) and -18's airframe. Nowhere near is the Mig 21 in this picture.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

To some extent those posters that describe the JF17 design a mutation of the chinease F7 there is some similarities.
Bear in mind the chinease where stil modifying and improving the F7 airframe long after the russians stopped building the MIG21 TYPES . Thus the PAF F7 airframe is far superior imo to any indian MIG21.
Some that design concept does exist between thunder & F7 that is clear. The size and shape of the fighters similar wings and tails and of course same origin ie china .
For those describing it as a Gripen i,.m fraid not. The Gripen is a Delta design nothing like the Jf17 OR INDEED the F16.
Delta designs have no tails ie Mirage GRIPEN Typhoon Rafale J10 and even LCA are tailess designed fighters.
This is where the sino-pak bucked the trend.

Dude Chinese origin doesnt mean that its all Chinese jet. Northrop was also working with China on Super 7. F-20 was a 4th Generation jet that was competing against F-16 and F-18. How much design and technology Northrop transferred to China is not known. Keep in mind that Northrop also built YF-23 and B-2.

F-20 was cancelled because of political reasons. Northrop lost billion dollar and it wanted to sell this design to China so that it can have some return of its investment done on F-20. JF-17 was a Northrop design first, but Pakistan wanted it to be near F-16, so many changes were done to keep it above Mig-21, F-20 and F-7, and closer to F-16. Only thing JF-17 is missing is a powerful engine.

If you are interested in history of F-20 here are the links
F-20A Tigershark Home Page
Where Are They Now: The F-20's Competitors
F-20 — The Tigershark Survivors

The cockpit would be changed completely, with a Northrop F-20 Tigershark windscreen and canopy, F-16-type displays and instrumentation, and a new ejection seat. The gaseous oxygen system would be replaced by a higher-capacity liquid oxygen system.
The program was partially funded by Pakistan, which was considered as the main potential customer. The fighter was offered as a low-cost alternative to the F-16 to meet Pakistan's 150-aircraft requirement to replace Chinese-supplied F-6s (MiG-19s). The flyaway cost will be $8-9 million.

Chengdu would build the revised rear fuselage to a Grumman design, while the US company would build the new forward fuselage. PAC would assemble the aircraft. Several other Western companies were in competition to supply the engine and avionics.

 

[Storm Force]

Boys relax I am not indicating that thunder is dated or inferior by it's design. I merely pointing out the majority of this era fourth gen fighters went delta design.

I said nothing abt ability or technology.

You guys are jumping to conclusions

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Boys relax I am not indicating that thunder is dated or inferior by it's design. I merely pointing out the majority of this era fourth gen fighters went delta design.
I said nothing abt ability or technology.
You guys are jumping to conclusions

Here is list of generations. Please read it.
Fourth-generation jet fighter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Five Generations of Jets | Fighterworld

 

[Storm Force]

I may be wrong but is the jf17 powered by a Russian engine.

And carrys chinease radar and chinease weapons missiles chinease
Jammers and ew suites and radars.

On this basis it qualifys as a chinease designed fighter. With f20./f5 derived air frame design with tails.

Rather than a western designed delta fighter like gripen

 

[Zhukov]

Boys relax I am not indicating that thunder is dated or inferior by it's design. I merely pointing out the majority of this era fourth gen fighters went delta design.

I said nothing abt ability or technology.

You guys are jumping to conclusions

Wrong again bro. Correct yourself Majority of Next Gen Fighters are Tail Design.
F15 Strike Eagle F18 Super Hornet F22 RAPTOR F35 Lightning II Sukhoi PAKFA Shenyang J31 Sukhoi 35 Super Flanker F16 Block 60 Mitsubishi F2 FCK-1 Chingku
Infact exept Gripen Rafale Typhoon and J20 no significant next gen design is in Tailess Delta Configuration(Plus Rafale and Typhoon have same origin in design concept)

I may be wrong but is the jf17 powered by a Russian engine.

And carrys chinease radar and chinease weapons missiles chinease
Jammers and ew suites and radars.

On this basis it qualifys as a chinease designed fighter. With f20./f5 derived air frame design with tails.

Rather than a western designed delta fighter like gripen

JFT is a modular design.
We adopt the current configuration due to Financial Issues.
It can still fire AIM-9 Sidewinder and other western weapons
Plus Salex Vixen AESA is always available to us for purchase. KLJ-7 is adopted only for its Cost and Benefit.
Western avionics can be purchased asap and adopted in JFT if Neede and Funds available
And China is the only Country beside US to Start two Projects of Stealth Jets simultaniously and Fly both models so cheers. chinese Tech is almost matching its western counterpart. WE have no problem adopting Advance Chinese Weapons.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

To some extent those posters that describe the JF17 design a mutation of the chinease F7 there is some similarities.
Bear in mind the chinease where stil modifying and improving the F7 airframe long after the russians stopped building the MIG21 TYPES . Thus the PAF F7 airframe is far superior imo to any indian MIG21.
Some that design concept does exist between thunder & F7 that is clear. The size and shape of the fighters similar wings and tails and of course same origin ie china .
For those describing it as a Gripen i,.m fraid not. The Gripen is a Delta design nothing like the Jf17 OR INDEED the F16.
Delta designs have no tails ie Mirage GRIPEN Typhoon Rafale J10 and even LCA are tailess designed fighters.
This is where the sino-pak bucked the trend.

These are five 4th generation fighters that are ALL TAILESS

UNLIKE THE THUNDER WHICH COPIES THE USA F5 & F16 CONCEPT ABOVE

I may be wrong but is the jf17 powered by a Russian engine.
And carrys chinease radar and chinease weapons missiles chinease
Jammers and ew suites and radars.
On this basis it qualifys as a chinease designed fighter. With f20./f5 derived air frame design with tails.
Rather than a western designed delta fighter like gripen

Does the tag says MADE IN JAPAN? MADE IN SWEDEN? Or MADE IN USA?

So which one is it? F-7 mutation or F-16 copy or F-20, F-5 derived air frame with TAILS ? You cant seem to make up your mind

Dont you think JF-17 also borrows from design of F-18.

Why 5th generation F-22, F-35 and PAK FA didnt copy 4th generation delta wing and canards design, instead they copied 3rd generation Mig 21 wing design with what you call TAIL

 

[Viper0011.]

I may be wrong but is the jf17 powered by a Russian engine.
And carrys chinease radar and chinease weapons missiles chinease Jammers and ew suites and radars.
On this basis it qualifys as a chinease designed fighter. With f20./f5 derived air frame design with tails.
Rather than a western designed delta fighter like gripen

You ain't going to let it go will you? Chinese tech is primarily Russian based so the JFT is still better than half of your airforce consisting of older Mig 21, 25's, Jags, etc, etc. Now this will set a lot of as* on fire. Then why do you keep doing the dumb comparison like the above to others?
In one post, you said that the 4th Gen jets were delta (REALLY?, because of LCA is delta? which in my opinion is a downgraded Mirage 2K per your logic?)
Then, in the above post, now you are retracting by putting another spin on the post, this time by inserting the Chinese Radars and Weapons and the Russian engine. Does that matter???

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

You ain't going to let it go will you? Chinese tech is primarily Russian based so the JFT is still better than half of your airforce consisting of older Mig 21, 25's, Jags, etc, etc. Now this will set a lot of as* on fire. Then why do you keep doing the dumb comparison like the above to others?
In one post, you said that the 4th Gen jets were delta (REALLY?, because of LCA is delta? which in my opinion is a downgraded Mirage 2K per your logic?)
Then, in the above post, now you are retracting by putting another spin on the post, this time by inserting the Chinese Radars and Weapons and the Russian engine. Does that matter???

But LCA doesnt have CANARDS Is it not equal to typhoon, rafale and gripen without canards? All THIS ERA 4TH GENERATION WESTERN JETS HAVE DELTA WINGS AND CANARDS oops poor Tejas with no canards

 

[Storm Force]

The thread is about the ultimate Mig21 . Pakistan's new backbone fighter.

Talking about legacy India fighters currently bring phased out like migs and jags is not appropriate.

the thread asks is the thunder a ultimate mig,21.

I say no it's not.
But it does have a resemblance to both F5.and f16.

Those describing it as a gripen it looks nothing like gripen both internally of externally.

Ps I said nothing about thunder bring dated

 

[thrilainmanila]

The thread is about the ultimate Mig21 . Pakistan's new backbone fighter.

Talking about legacy India fighters currently bring phased out like migs and jags is not appropriate.

the thread asks is the thunder a ultimate mig,21.

I say no it's not.
But it does have a resemblance to both F5.and f16.

Those describing it as a gripen it looks nothing like gripen both internally of externally.

Ps I said nothing about thunder bring dated

it looks like a FA/18 at several angles,

 

[Storm Force]

Yes I agree it looks a liitle like a small f18...

 

[elitepilot09]

it looks like a FA/18 at several angles,

What sort of an escort is without armaments?

Thank you for the pictures btw.

 

[Storm Force]

To be fair it's a great concept.

Low cost
No sanctions threat
Tech transfer

But you need to add western avionics and weapons and improve the airframe by adding composites