This is not our war? Still?

[Bill Longley]

You have aspirations to be a reporter. You know one of the duties of a reporter is to sift fact from convenient fiction - and absolutely everybody knows that for the past five years the U.S. has been knocking off terrorists one little missile at a time, not by huge bombs.

You don't know if Pakistan's generals are purposely sending their jawans into situations that will decimate them, just to rack up the body count and gain the credibility you cite. If you don't consider it your duty to investigate that, how can you consider yourself either a good citizen or good reporter?

I wont comment further as you dont read papers and dont know about accusations of Karzai and Afghan govt .

I am sorry you are ignorant and only read propoganda .

You dont know what army is and any thing about comeradeship
you dont know for every 4 jawans 1 officer layed his life

you know nothing about Pakistan Army and thats why you mix fantasies and propoganda of Pakista Phobic out lets and in end expose ur ignorance.

sweet dreams, Pakistan need no acknowledgement
we are proud of our army and generals and we know they might not be having style of ur generals but on ground they are better then urs at least they have given results

 

[Solomon2]

you know nothing about Pakistan Army -

I know the P.A. slew hundreds of thousands of civilians in 1971 and no one was ever called to account for it. Since you are proud of this legacy your fellow Pakistanis have the right to question your fitness as a fellow citizen and human being, is that not so?

 

[Bill Longley]

I know the P.A. slew hundreds of thousands of civilians in 1971 and no one was ever called to account for it. Since you are proud of this legacy your fellow Pakistanis have the right to question your fitness as a fellow citizen and human being, is that not so?

yes I know , same as in Vietnam and Iraq and Afghanistan..... list is very long so bro dont drag
you love ur country I love mine and Am proud of it.
People still remember Sabera and Shatila and u should not talk like this as Israel and US or any one is clean

 

[blain2]

He was one of B.Bhutto's advisers. As far as he's concerned, based on his experience, in Pakistan the generals call the shots; elected officials are subordinate to them as they can be removed, co-opted, or neutered at the generals' pleasure.

That would take courage.

Lets be clear. Kamran Shaffi was BB's speech writer. He was not in the inside circle and as a result maintains some of the dignity that usually gets lost when people get too close to the PPP's inner circle.

Secondly, I have a major problem with the way the courts in Pakistan are operating with regards to cases against those who are either participants or abettors in terrorist attacks. The terrorists and their sympathizers have moved on and use technology and techniques which make it very difficult for the state to prove their guilt. Over the past years, over 800 people arrested have been released due to lack of evidence. A middle ground has to be found instead of the supreme court constantly passing judgements setting people free which obviously overlook the lack of resources, technology etc. on the part of law enforcement during prosecution of such cases.

 

[OrionHunter]

This is our war and guns now need to be turned to India. Jahil talibs have nothing to gain from P3C orions or SAAB-2000 Eriye. Its clear as day who is behind it and this is how it needs to be treated.

Aeronaut, I'm surprised by your comment! Most unexpected I should say. According to you and some others, since the AWACs were targeted, the perpetrators of the attacks must have been Indian agents or terrorist under the direct command and control of Indian intel agencies! What convoluted logic is this?

How do you know that ONLY the AWACS were the target? Have you got insider info of the terrorist's plan? Has any terrorist behind this attack been interrogated? If not, why are you tilting at windmills, adding to this nonsensical conspiracy theory?

Before pointing fingers, you need to get incontrovertible proof. You don't have any. And being a mod, you need to be more unbiased and balanced in your posts.

Thanks.

 

[Solomon2]

yes I know , same as in Vietnam and Iraq and Afghanistan..... list is very long so bro dont drag
you love ur country I love mine and Am proud of it.
People still remember Sabera and Shatila and u should not talk like this as Israel and US or any one is clean

We can take this attempt at diversion as an admission of guilt and moral complicity. Now with your reputation destroyed, perhaps the discussion - and Pakistan - can move forward.

 

[rohailmalhi]

We can take this attempt at diversion as an admission of guilt and moral complicity. Now with your reputation destroyed, perhaps the discussion - and Pakistan - can move forward.

Thanks to the ISAF in Afghanistan and free hand to american in Pakistan we are facing war like situation.

We are and will be better off without this war . Everything is orchestrated just to make us believe that this freaking war is our war to make us weak from inside to achieve the ultimate goal.

U don't have to tell us what to do . We felt the heat of ur so called war on terror.This war on terror is doing nothing good to us but bringing destruction to our country. I think for all this mess USA is more responsible than any other party.

Army is most probably going to go for NW operation but i hope they know what they are doing .It think it will be better to push the so people of concern in Afghanistan and then close the border forever so that they dont come back then its ISAF headache and we give a damn about what happens to them or their soldiers. Atleast they wont dump their Military and Intelligence failure in Afghanistan on Pakistan .

 

[Bill Longley]

We can take this attempt at diversion as an admission of guilt and moral complicity. Now with your reputation destroyed, perhaps the discussion - and Pakistan - can move forward.

Solomon2


dont forget RED INDIANS

and plzzzz dont tell me what is morality at least you cannot give lecture on that

about afghanistan in order to save respect read and research so that you know whats going on

 

[TalibanSwatter]

Zahid Hussain

IT was nauseating to listen to some TV commentators ranting about a foreign hand behind the Kamra airbase attack. Some even found vindication of their insane conspiracy theories in a report in an American newspaper that claimed the base may be involved in Pakistan’s nuclear programme. They conveniently ignored the statement of a TTP spokesman claiming responsibility for the daring raid.

It is not just conspiratorial paranoia dominating this narrative; some of these analysts, mainly retired military officials who are now often seen on TV screens, sounded like outright apologists for militants. One retired general declared that after Pakistan’s decision to reopen Nato supply lines, militants might have felt justified under the Sharia in attacking military installations.

Instead of condemning militancy, many political leaders joined the chorus of ‘this is not our war’.

What is most troubling is that we are still caught up in this inane discussion about whether it is our war while rising militancy and violent religious extremism are threatening the very existence of this country. These are militants who have declared a war against the state and its people. The only choice before us is to fight or to surrender to the armed marauders who seek to push Pakistan into the dark ages.

Gen Kayani in his Independence Day speech at Kakul was absolutely correct in declaring that the fight against extremism and terrorism is our own war and we are right in fighting it. One cannot agree with him more that no state can afford a parallel system or militant force. But the division among the people on the issue will push the country into civil war.

No state can maintain its sovereignty if it allows armed militias to impose their will on the people through brute force. The policy of appeasement has already cost the country hugely, both in terms of human casualties and its overall impact on society and the economy. Gen Kayani’s speech marked a fundamental change in the strategy for fighting militancy and extremism in the country.

Although security forces have been fighting the Taliban in the tribal territories and parts of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa for the past several years, the army leadership had maintained a deliberate ambiguity about who the enemy was. Soldiers were motivated by the cant that they were fighting Indian and foreign agents. As Gen Kayani explained, it is the most difficult task for any army to fight against its own people.

Nevertheless, it is also imperative that the people, particularly soldiers, should know who they are fighting and for what. The enemy is from within our own society and not from outside. The fight against militancy and extremism is also an ideological battle, so it is important to shed this ambiguity about who the enemy is.

It is about time we came out of this dangerous delusion of being victims of some foreign conspiracy. These are our own people who are blowing up our schools, homes and religious places. Thousands of Pakistani soldiers have been killed battling the groups which were once developed as security assets. These groups have now turned to jihad inside. Defying the bans on them, they are not only still active, but have also expanded. They are certainly not outsiders but home-grown militants trying to impose their retrogressive worldview through force.

The attack on the base at Kamra showed that militants have regenerated and reorganised despite some setbacks after the military operations in Swat and South Waziristan, and their attacks have become more sophisticated. It is not only military installations that are under attack. Even mosques, shrines and other places of worship are not spared.

The country has virtually been turned into a killing field with thousands of people becoming victims of terrorism and sectarian and religion-based violence. More than two dozen members of the Shia community were pulled out from buses and gunned down in cold blood on the day the Kamra base came under attack.

Although no direct link between the two incidents could be established, the perpetrators seemed to be driven by the same ideological worldview. The sectarian massacre in Pakistan is not an isolated phenomenon. It is intertwined with the rise of the Taliban movement in the country.

More worrisome, however, is the abdication by the government of its responsibility to provide protection to its citizens. Some of the mainstream, moderate political parties have also joined the radical bandwagon, whipping up zealotry for their narrow political interests. Their refusal to support the battle against militancy has helped strengthen extremist forces. What the government and the opposition political parties do not realise is that by giving in to extremists they are digging their own graves. Militancy and extremism present the biggest threat to democracy.

Meanwhile, militants have succeeded in creating a sense of fear. With a weak administration giving in to their rhetoric, they seem to have gained far greater space than their actual public support would imply. They have also been helped by a section of the media to project their extremist narrative.

The continuing selective patronage by the security agencies of some militant factions has also been a major reason for the failure of the state to stem the tide. Gen Kayani has acknowledged that mistakes had been made by all state institutions, including the army, in realising the gravity of the threat to the country’s integrity that militancy poses. One hopes that those mistakes will not be repeated.

It is now a battle to save Pakistan that demands greater unity among the forces who want to revive the vision of Pakistan as a liberal democratic state. And this battle cannot be won through military means alone. It is imperative to defeat the forces of extremism politically and ideologically as well.

 

[CENTCOM]

Sometimes we do not have the luxury of picking and choosing our battles. When we shifted our focus away from Afghanistan after the Soviet War, nobody realized that the same country would be used to launch an attack on our soil. Hence, to believe that the Pakistani military could have or should turn a blind eye to existential threat of terrorism in their own backyard and across a long border in Afghanistan is wishful and potentially disastrous thinking. If there is a fire in your neighbor’s house and you do nothing to stop it, then the fire will spread to your home. Thousands of Pakistani soldiers have lost their lives preserving stability in Pakistan. Indulging in conspiracy theories of this kind only disrespects the Pakistani soldiers who have essentially fought for their country. Burying your head under the ground like an ostrich does not remove the problem.

Terrorists belong to no religion and no country, and their only weapon is violence and murder. They are involved in brutal civilian attacks on both sides of the border. Hence, we have to come together and focus on fighting against these traitors of humanity and religion, not amongst ourselves.

Capt. Joseph Kreidel
DET – U.S. Central Command
www.centcom.mil/ur

 

[TalibanSwatter]

Sometimes we do not have the luxury of picking and choosing our battles. When we shifted our focus away from Afghanistan after the Soviet War, nobody realized that the same country would be used to launch an attack on our soil. Hence, to believe that the Pakistani military could have or should turn a blind eye to existential threat of terrorism in their own backyard and across a long border in Afghanistan is wishful and potentially disastrous thinking. If there is a fire in your neighbor’s house and you do nothing to stop it, then the fire will spread to your home. Thousands of Pakistani soldiers have lost their lives preserving stability in Pakistan. Indulging in conspiracy theories of this kind only disrespects the Pakistani soldiers who have essentially fought for their country. Burying your head under the ground like an ostrich does not remove the problem.

Terrorists belong to no religion and no country, and their only weapon is violence and murder. They are involved in brutal civilian attacks on both sides of the border. Hence, we have to come together and focus on fighting against these traitors of humanity and religion, not amongst ourselves.

Capt. Joseph Kreidel
DET – U.S. Central Command
www.centcom.mil/ur

Joseph - Perhaps you agree that it would be a bit simplistic to treat this as a regional problem. While we need to clean up our backyard and take out the Salafi-inspired TTP thugs and their supporters in NWA, the war against this pan-regional Salafi militant movement will not be won in Pakistan. The TTP, LeJ and their ilk are simply localized versions of a multi-headed monster. We see different versions of this monster in Somalia, Philipines, Thailand, Yemen, Morocco, Algeria, Nigeria and Indonesia among others. It will keep regenerating and expanding unless you tackle the root of the problem. That is the only way to cut off the oxygen to the beast.

At the end of the day, the US would be well advised to earnestly confront the ideological and funding hub of this global militant movement network. And I would suggest that confrontation needs to take place in a region far away from pakistan or afghanistan. Until you do that, there will always be another Waziristan cropping up somewhere in the world.

 

[TalibanSwatter]

DAWN

ON most days, this doesn’t feel like a country at war. And yet that is precisely what it is. Consider just some of the violent incidents of the last few days: a bomb in a marketplace in Peshawar kills innocent civilians. In Bajaur Agency security forces and citizens battle militants who are fighting their way back into Pakistan from Afghanistan; on Friday they revealed the severed heads of a dozen soldiers. A judge is shot dead in Quetta in what appears to be a sectarian attack. Zoom out a few more days, and you have Minhas airbase being brazenly attacked, Shias being killed execution-style in Naran and Quetta, and ongoing clashes in Khyber Agency where even cellphone shops are being shut down for being ‘un-Islamic’. What seems to be forgotten amidst all the talk of US-Pakistan relations, judiciary-executive tussles and the state of the economy is the fact that we are still confronted with militancy and terrorism that, in some parts, is gaining ground again.

It’s almost as if Pakistanis have been lulled into a false sense of complacency after the operations in Swat, Bajaur and South Waziristan in 2009 and a decline in the frequency of terrorist incidents after the bloody days of that year. The concerted campaign to build public and political consensus that enabled the relative — though still tenuous — success of the operation in Swat hasn’t been seen since. America is increasingly the focus of public resentment, especially given the increase in drone attacks, and not much has been done to get the nation to collectively confront the reality that something is rotten in the state of Pakistan itself. Nor do the military and administration seem to have the will to launch military efforts with the same determination and focus they did three years ago. Operations and security measures seem piecemeal, hesitant or reactive, lacking the conviction and all-out effort that are still clearly needed. We are far from being out of the woods, but there is no discernible plan to get us through them.

 

[TalibanSwatter]

Zahid Hussain

Nevertheless, it is also imperative that the people, particularly soldiers, should know who they are fighting and for what. The enemy is from within our own society and not from outside. The fight against militancy and extremism is also an ideological battle, so it is important to shed this ambiguity about who the enemy is.


It is now a battle to save Pakistan that demands greater unity among the forces who want to revive the vision of Pakistan as a liberal democratic state. And this battle cannot be won through military means alone. It is imperative to defeat the forces of extremism politically and ideologically as well.

DAWN

UNTIL recent years, Mali had persistently shrugged off the possibility that a small number of extremists could take over the country. Now, after the militants have captured most of the northern region and destroyed several sites of cultural heritage including shrines, mosques and Unesco-designated world heritage sites, the people of Mali are calling out to the international community for help.

Most tragic was the reported burning of some manuscripts allegedly by a librarian on the militants’ arrival in the city of Timbuktu. The value of these treasures is beyond estimation; if instances of such reported destruction continue, the collective loss could be larger than the decimation of the House of Wisdom by the Ilkhanate forces during the siege of Baghdad in 1258.

If accounts of the burning of the manuscripts are true, they indicate that the advent of the militants in Mali seems to have been a catalyst for the ‘transformed faith’ of some among the custodians of Mali’s house of wisdom. Many of those working in financial institutions, especially the banking sector, and foreign-funded NGOs are also reported to have fallen prey to the same sentiment.

The moderates of the West African country, which was considered one of the region’s most stable democracies, were living in their comfort zones. Civil society was satisfied that their ‘mujahideen’ had fought to free Libya from a dictatorship. Not one was
able to foresee that they could be the next target of the same ‘mujahideen’.

This is not merely Mali’s story; the same has happened in Somalia, Kenya, Yemen and Pakistan (Swat). Not only do Islamist militants the world over adopt a similar religious and political discourse, their actions too are alike. They are inherently expansionist. Instead of focusing on governance and humanitarian issues, they want to expand their ideological, political and territorial boundaries. Their cause remains attractive as long as they continue fighting.

Their description of a state is very simple and comprises three pillars: hakim (ruler), who acts on behalf of the council of the pious; qazi, who normally settles disputes; and kotwal, or law enforcer, who maintains law and order at any cost. The ordinary Muslim often believes in this simple narrative of the state.

Once triggered and encouraged to assert itself, this narrative becomes almost irreversible. This has happened in Afghanistan, the Pakistani tribal areas and Somalia. The people pay the price for putting their faith in the simplistic narrative of the state, and the narrative is further strengthened by some segments of society adopting the Islamists’ strict regulations on nearly every aspect of human behaviour and social life. Hence what is happening in northern Mali is nothing unique.

The parallels in contemporary Islamist militant movements show that they tend to begin from the tribal areas. Though they have urban and Western educated members in their fold, their ideas of jihad are drawn from the mountains of Afghanistan that are still a vital source of inspiration, or the conflict zones located on that state’s borders.

Apart from strategic, operational and territorial advantages, these areas provide them space for ideological and political growth, which may not be easy in urban or even rural areas, where socio-cultural and political behaviour is fixed, and even the clergy follows a set pattern and in most cases is reluctant to change the discourse.

The mountain redoubts of Abyan province in Yemen, north Sinai in Egypt, the preferred hideouts of Al Shabab in the semi-autonomous region of Puntland, and mountainous terrains on the borders of Pakistan, Afghanistan and Tajikistan have many similarities. These areas lack not only development and state control; the local population here has less exposure to the outside world.

The control over these peripheries, however, is not the ultimate target of the Islamist militants. They keep their eye on mainland regions, which they feel is essential for achieving their political objectives. They maintain contact with inhabitants of urban areas to seek not only moral support but also logistics and financial resources. They wait until an appropriate time, when a sufficient support and network base has been developed, to target and hit cities. The Merca coastline and Mogadishu in Somalia, Abyan in Yemen, and now Timbuktu in Mali are recent examples.

This might not be deemed a unique pattern but for the militants it is a source of strength both at the moral and operational level. The urban population and its information organs have less access to these areas and any retaliation by the state does not get the level of acceptance among the masses given the more immediate threats they face in their daily lives, particularly crimes and lawlessness in society.

Apart from the absence of urban security sensitivities in the tribal areas, economic deprivation, political and ideological ambiguities also play a crucial role in the development of simplistic narratives. These factors are exploited by Islamist radicals to the maximum. It is difficult for states to take recourse to similarly sensational and skewed rhetoric, and Islamist militants can easily outclass states on the propaganda front.

A remedy to these problems can be found in pluralism, freedom of expression and cognitive responses. The state has to provide an atmosphere for the cognitive growth of society and encourage rationalist and moderate segments of society to come out of
their comfort zones and start asserting themselves without fear.

Otherwise the patterns, dynamics, strategies, tactics and ideological and political frameworks of the Islamist militancy will continue to appeal to the simplest narrative espoused by ordinary Muslims, and whenever and wherever Islamists strike, the custodians of ancient heritage may be there to support them

 

[Armstrong]

This is our war...this is indeed our war ! There can be no two ways about it. However, having said that, we must be conscious enough to say that Our War on Terror isn't the American led War on Terror; our war and their war have profoundly different dynamics, different time-frames and different dilemmas ! I think the Military is more than conscious of this but I do wonder whether the people are or not. Even though their war and our war overlap in a few places where both our interests converge and more importantly where they diverge, we cannot be held hostage to their plans just as they will never be held hostage to ours. The sooner we're able to realize this on a 'societal level' the more quickly and with greater would we be heading towards its eventual end.

Pakistan Zindabad ! Pak Fauj Paindabad !

 

[Solomon2]

^^^^
Yeah, it's also Pakistan's war but Pakistan has different strategic objectives than America - or most of the Afghans, for that matter, who have resented Pakistan's meddling in their affairs for decades.