Think Tank paper: Pakistan and US aid – Time to send the addict to rehab?

[lem34]

It should not.

What you have posted is very correct, and has its roots in the self-delusionary mindset of those in control. It was fine for decades when only the nation was deluded to keep them in power, but now that they have started to believe in their own legends, the miscalculations leading to rapid descent into chaos are evident for all to see.

The real damage is that just about everyone who is sane - including China - sees this descent and are on the verge of concluding that it is not feasible to stop it.

With you VC I feel like a fellow student. We were both introduced to Mr Bhadrakumar or an article by the same by Agnostic on another thread. This chap is a former India diplomat a former Indian ambassador no less who writes articles now that he is retired. I think it is appropriate to freshen your mind about his reading of the situation. He believed India had made a mistake after the demise of the Soviets. He believed that our (whoever decides thing maybe Kayani & Co) in Islamabad made the right decision in reading the world as multi polar. (as by the way I do)

I put the article on here sometime ago under its own thread because when Indians slag us of as American lap dogs. It was something to correct their misguidance

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/150118-dai-bingguo-heading-islamabad.html

Both you and others who are keen to remind us of Pakistan's disposable nature to China need to see the entire chessboard. As I said earlier Syria on it's own is no big deal. Russia and China would be happy to throw Assad under the bus if they could draw a line and no further incursion into their growth and movement forward. But that is not on the table. What is on the table is regime change in Syria to be followed by the same in Iran. Pakistan to be subjected to the regional proxy as Muse used to call it Chaudry of our region. Of course with Pakistan and Pakistani interests subjugated by Indian interests.

The cumulative effect of these forays along with the missile shield in Europe to neutralise the Russiannuclear deterrent simply will put a stop to Chinese and Russian growth and advancement. So what you guys are missing is the fact that if China and Russia in their own interests not Pakistan's do nothing in due course they themselves become sitting ducks

(I must thank Agnostic and Muse for introducing me and to an extent in educating me on so much here by their posts)

 

[VCheng]

.........So what you guys are missing is the fact that if China and Russia in their own interests not Pakistan's do nothing in due course they themselves become sitting ducks

And what you seem to be missing is that fact that whatever Russia and China do to secure their national interests does NOT and will NOT include any support for Pakistan that everyone seems to be wishin' and hopin' and prayin' for, save for lots of lip service and limited meaningless tokens.

 

[lem34]

And what you seem to be missing is that fact that whatever Russia and China do to secure their national interests does NOT and will NOT include any support for Pakistan that everyone seems to be wishin' and hopin' and prayin' for, save for lots of lip service and limited meaningless tokens.

You could try reading my previous post mate. I actually agreed with you. They will be looking after their own interests. We or Pakistan benefits by them taking actions not for Pakistan but themselves. Good God man what do you want me to do spell it out for you A-B-C-D-

 

[VCheng]

You could try reading my previous post mate. I actually agreed with you. They will be looking after their own interests. We or Pakistan benefits by them taking actions not for Pakistan but themselves. Good God man what do you want me to do spell it out for you A-B-C-D-

No need, I spelled it out clearly enough for both of us!

 

[fd24]

No need, I spelled it out clearly enough for both of us!

Not really mate - all i can see the "infamous Cheng circular argument" ending back at square 1. You have an incredible talent of not absorbing any of the facts or even others opinion and being blinded by the loyalty you have for the US of A. Sometimes its wiser and better to think outside the box.
Its in Pakistans interests to come off the drugs because they dont work anymore and look towards solidifying other relations that could long term result in a better Pakistan for all. Lets agree to differ AGAIN.

 

[Albatross]

@kaif
I agree with yu regarding this guy cheng , I dint spend that much time like yu guys on this forum but from lil interaction I had it seems as if he cheng is very much influenced by US ideology and powers as yu may put it.At the end of everything he wants pak to act as is said by US which ofcourse is not in Pak interest and time has proven it again and again.

Coming towards china debate well pak will always be an imp ally for chinese considering increasing US interactions with India let it be NSG or other means of improving bilateral trade and weapons deals.To counteract that china has Pak in this region and will continue to support Pak the way they have been doing uptill now and they do understand many of our issues and apprehensions in a way no other nation does.But this doesnt mean we should make ourselves a liability on them.We need to strike a balance where we can talk to US and for that manner to any other country of the world on neutral footings and like an independent nation.

To achieve that indeed needs a lots of hardwork and if required bloodshed but that should be our ultimate goal to become a truly independet nation who earns her bread and butter herself.

To promote feelings like we are nothing without US help and aid infact represents a slave's nature something we need to get out of and people like him doesnt want that for some shady reasons.

 

[lem34]

@kaif
But this doesnt mean we should make ourselves a liability on them.We need to strike a balance where we can talk to US and for that manner to any other country of the world on neutral footings and like an independent nation.

To achieve that indeed needs a lots of hardwork and if required bloodshed but that should be our ultimate goal to become a truly independet nation who earns her bread and butter herself.

To promote feelings like we are nothing without US help and aid infact represents a slave's nature something we need to get out of and people like him doesnt want that for some shady reasons.

Brother we all know the answer of course you are right we want to be a good ally rather than a liability but how do we get there from the current quagmire of corrupt governance.

 

[VCheng]

...............
Its in Pakistans interests to come off the drugs because they dont work anymore and look towards solidifying other relations that could long term result in a better Pakistan for all. .............

Actually, I agree with this sentence more than you think. If we have a disagreement, it is only in the manner how we propose to get Pakistan to that point.

 

[Albatross]

Brother we all know the answer of course you are right we want to be a good ally rather than a liability but how do we get there from the current quagmire of corrupt governance.

Thats a million dollar question as a hundred things can be named rangin from educatin masses to building infrastructure but I feel the start can be taken by adopting good goverance something we are lacking for decades and to start that I guess lets make IK win the comin election in a way that he doesnt have to make any alliance with anyother party.Though personally I am not that hopeful of him either as when the roots are rotten one cant just get a green plant by watering leaves mean with widespread corruption in all spheres of life from sabziwala to a senior diplomats and beuorocrats one man cant change things overnight but still he seems a better option than ppp and pml-n and in the mean while people like us who have pain for this country should make think tanks and street level commitee's and unite masses and if required give their blood to first decide the right track under the circumstances and then do whatever it takes to bring country on that track.

 

[lem34]

Thats a million dollar question as a hundred things can be named rangin from educatin masses to building infrastructure but I feel the start can be taken by adopting good goverance something we are lacking for decades and to start that I guess lets make IK win the comin election in a way that he doesnt have to make any alliance with anyother party.Though personally I am not that hopeful of him either as when the roots are rotten one cant just get a green plant by watering leaves mean with widespread corruption in all spheres of life from sabziwala to a senior diplomats and beuorocrats one man cant change things overnight but still he seems a better option than ppp and pml-n and in the mean while people like us who have pain for this country should make think tanks and street level commitee's and unite masses and if required give their blood to first decide the right track under the circumstances and then do whatever it takes to bring country on that track.

I suppose following law is a start. Getting rid of Gillani. Maybe that is a start

 

[OrionHunter]

Bit off topic but why does India need so may consulates in Afghanistan? Tourism??

Aryan bhai, these Indian consulates are for helping and coordinating development projects in Afghanistan which now amount to well over $2 billion!

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Elmo---thank you for bringing out the china issue----. I believe and firmly believe that china must start to reject pakistan to show its true friendship---. Ship out or shape up---all this talk about friendship higher than the himalyas etc etc must come to and end---.

Once this illusion wears out---only and only then can pakistan beging to shape up.

 

[lem34]

Aryan bhai, these Indian consulates are for helping and coordinating development projects in Afghanistan which now amount to well over $2 billion!

Chinese have invested over 10 times that mate and they don't have as many consulates in Afghanistan. Just saying like.

 

[lem34]

Hi,

Elmo---thank you for bringing out the china issue----. I believe and firmly believe that china must start to reject pakistan to show its true friendship---. Ship out or shape up---all this talk about friendship higher than the himalyas etc etc must come to and end---.

Once this illusion wears out---only and only then can pakistan beging to shape up.

MK Sir you are falling in to the same trap as others on the forum that thinks Chinese do anything for Pakistan that is not in China interest. China helps with Gwador and infra structure in NE not for Pakistani interest but cos they fall in China's interest. It is a Pakistan's fortune that it happens to benefit from these actions of Chinese. The Chinese do not sit there thinking oh what is Pakistan's interest. Yep lets go do that for them. They are also acutely aware where "cash" within Pakistan goes and prefer to assist in making Pakistan self sufficient and infra structure rather than what our so called "elite" like.

Convergence of our interest whether it is with China Russia or Iran is our fortune not by design.

Moving on from what happened yesterday's events in the PM being sacked was good news. I have for sometime being watching or reading Asim's posts on supremacy of judiciary on a number of topics. I disagreed with him on judicial interference in national security. However having seen the weak arguments against judicial intervention by some that usually espouse American diktat on us I think am coming around to Asim's way of thinking and perhaps this is the ray of light we need in Pakistan in that the courts enforce the fact that no one is above the law. Perhaps if parliament with IK in a majority role was to pass more draconian laws for corruption and tax evasion would assist. The natural result of active judicial intervention against people who abuse power will lead to better governance. Now we need for judiciary to be consistent.

 

[MastanKhan]

MK Sir you are falling in to the same trap as others on the forum that thinks Chinese do anything for Pakistan that is not in China interest. China helps with Gwador and infra structure in NE not for Pakistani interest but cos they fall in China's interest. It is a Pakistan's fortune that it happens to benefit from these actions of Chinese. The Chinese do not sit there thinking oh what is Pakistan's interest. Yep lets go do that for them. They are also acutely aware where "cash" within Pakistan goes and prefer to assist in making Pakistan self sufficient and infra structure rather than what our so called "elite" like.

Convergence of our interest whether it is with China Russia or Iran is our fortune not by design.

Moving on from what happened yesterday's events in the PM being sacked was good news. I have for sometime being watching or reading Asim's posts on supremacy of judiciary on a number of topics. I disagreed with him on judicial interference in national security. However having seen the weak arguments against judicial intervention by some that usually espouse American diktat on us I think am coming around to Asim's way of thinking and perhaps this is the ray of light we need in Pakistan in that the courts enforce the fact that no one is above the law. Perhaps if parliament with IK in a majority role was to pass more draconian laws for corruption and tax evasion would assist. The natural result of active judicial intervention against people who abuse power will lead to better governance. Now we need for judiciary to be consistent.

Hi,

Don't assume----what's up with all these wild tangents that you want to ride and associate me with them----.

Good for you---you found a leader---and good for him---he got somebody to folow him----a match made in-----.