Think Tank paper: Pakistan and US aid – Time to send the addict to rehab?

[VCheng]

I agree - the wrath of the US is not to be underestimated. Lately the annoyance of the USA has been visible - on occasion showing tantrums like a spoilt child. Look this is probably the best chance we have had as regards to loosening the stranglehold they have had over us. There has been examples where the wrath hasnt worked to the extent the USA would have wanted - Cuba being an example.

US policy on Cuba, and the related sanctions, has always been drawn according to the wishes of the powerful expat lobby centered in Miami, and it would be wrong to draw a parallel here. Iran might be a better example, and even they have found it difficult going despite enormous oil wealth.

Pakistan has neither an influential expat lobby nor any export worthy natural resources at present.

It depends on the strength of our relations with third parties such as China and Russia.
You may also underestimate the strategical geographical position that Pakistan has. Is the USA prepared to give this away? Look at the geopolitics Dev and i think one will agree there is potentially a loss for the US as well if the relations reach a complete fail...

It is not under- but OVERestimation of the importance of Pakistan's geographical location that is the real danger. What does precisely Pakistan offer that is so unique that it cannot be replaced or circumvented?

 

[lem34]

US policy on Cuba, and the related sanctions, has always been drawn according to the wishes of the powerful expat lobby centered in Miami, and it would be wrong to draw a parallel here. Iran might be a better example, and even they have found it difficult going despite enormous oil wealth.

Pakistan has neither an influential expat lobby nor any export worthy natural resources at present.

Mate in response to Dev (on sanctions) I stated that sanctions do not work. I also offered authority for that. If you felt I was wrong you should have asked me for authority.

Sanctions Don't Work

US officials believe Iran sanctions will fail, making military action likely | World news | The Guardian

Why Economic Sanctions Still Do Not Work - Harvard - Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs

BBC News - Analysis: Do economic sanctions work?

If you still insist on playing up to peoples fears and want a full blown discussion on why sanctions do not work then start a thread or we may end up off topic here

It is not under- but OVERestimation of the importance of Pakistan's geographical location that is the real danger. What does precisely Pakistan offer that is so unique that it cannot be replaced or circumvented?

Go look at post 45. Then consider this India has thrown it's lot with America. Russians may be bribed or weaned off China after all race may play it's part and they are white. Do you really think China can do without Pakistan so deftly-no not so mate. You misread the global picture with reverence to American. Try thinking outside the box occasionally.

 

[Developereo]

Clearly we are rapidly approaching the end of Pax America. America is on the demise and China is on the rise.

We, including myself, have a tendency to talk about Turkey and China and whoever taking on the established powers and to redefine the new world order but, did you notice, those countries rarely talk that way about themselves?

The rivalry is most often played up by people inimical to Chinese interests in order to pit China against the West. China, for its part, would rather downplay the differences and look for areas of cooperation and compromise with the West. If its core interests are directly threatened, it will surely stand its ground, but it certainly doesn't appreciate being thrust in a confrontational role against the West by Pakistan or anyone else.

 

[lem34]

We, including myself, have a tendency to talk about Turkey and China and whoever taking on the established powers and to redefine the new world order but, did you notice, those countries rarely talk that way about themselves?

.

Mate go and read their internal news papers rather than what they say to the rest of the world. They do talk about these matters amongst themselves. The Turks you will find on various topics on here talk about their visions and disagreements on how they should play it.

The rivalry is most often played up by people inimical to Chinese interests in order to pit China against the West. China, for its part, would rather downplay the differences and look for areas of cooperation and compromise with the West. If its core interests are directly threatened, it will surely stand its ground, but it certainly doesn't appreciate being thrust in a confrontational role against the West by Pakistan or anyone else.

In my opinion it is the Americans and their media who constantly pit and grate against Chinese.

Pakistan is not the red line. Syrians and Iranians are ahead of us. I would pm you an article but I may be on your ignore list as I can not pm you. If you take me off that list I will send it to you.

 

[Developereo]

Mate go and read their internal news papers rather than what they say to the rest of the world. They do talk about these matters amongst themselves. The Turks you will find on various topics on here talk about their visions and disagreements on how they should play it.

I am not talking about individual opinion pieces, but official policy and pronouncements. American officials, from Obama to Romney, make no secret of confronting China, but the Chinese response is very muted. It is restricted to defending Chinese interests -- a defensive posture -- rather than an aggressive confrontational posture.

Pakistan is not the red line. Syrians and Iranians are ahead of us. I would pm you an article but I may be on your ignore list as I can not pm you. If you take me off that list I will send it to you.

I have disabled PM in general because I was spending too much time with them.

However, my point remains. Other countries are pushing China to a confrontational posture -- the Chinese would rather bide their time and avoid conflict wherever possible. China is not keen to damage its position in the world unless it is absolutely, positively unavoidable to confront the US. Putin and Russia have dreams of regaining past Cold War equality and glory; the Chinese are not burdened with that emotional baggage to 'settle scores' with America.

 

[lem34]

I am not talking about individual opinion pieces, but official policy and pronouncements. American officials, from Obama to Romney, make no secret of confronting China, but the Chinese response is very muted. It is restricted to defending Chinese interests -- a defensive posture -- rather than an aggressive confrontational posture.


.

Maybe cos their actions talk louder than words. With Chinese we always hear after the event of their achievements.

 

[lem34]

However, my point remains. Other countries are pushing China to a confrontational posture -- the Chinese would rather bide their time and avoid conflict wherever possible. China is not keen to damage its position in the world unless it is absolutely, positively unavoidable to confront the US. Putin and Russia have dreams of regaining past Cold War equality and glory; the Chinese are not burdened with that emotional baggage to 'settle scores' with America.

In context with the thread title if I am correct you are stating that we are doing the pushing. We are not. The Americans are which you have acknowledged in regards to China that is officially and unofficially. In any event as things stand the pressing issue is Syria and Iran. We are for later. When I say Americans are pushing China, Americans can push China indirectly for the moment.

In my opinion it is not about settling accounts. Your argument reminds me of those that argue that Ghandi was peaceful. If you lie in front of my car when I am about to drive to work and stop me from going about what by law I can and I kick you out of the way I am the peaceful one not you.

In any event this is semantics and we are going off topic a little. The root cause of confrontation is America and America clinging on to the last vestiges of power. We need to position Pakistan for maximum benefit in the oncoming strife which is inevitable

 

[Bond]

hmm.. All of your theories do make sense.. may be you have a inside source in CCP.. may be..

Maybe cos there actions talk louder than words. With Chinese we always hear after the event of their achievements.

 

[VCheng]

.........Do you really think China can do without Pakistan so deftly-no not so mate. ..................

Absolutely yes. It would be a mistake to assume that Pakistan is indispensable to China, and for any other major power, for that matter.

 

[lem34]

Absolutely yes. It would be a mistake to assume that Pakistan is indispensable to China, and for any other major power, for that matter.

In isolation maybe but then you ignore the context. It is usual for you to home in and take out the odd sentence out of context and then hang your hat on it

hmm.. All of your theories do make sense.. may be you have a inside source in CCP.. may be..

Many a true thing said in jest

 

[MastanKhan]

It indeed was a lovely solution to kill all the terrorists but on the ground it gets difficult when one finds so many varying supporters to back them.There are a few questions to ponder a)Why TTP has such a huge amounts of US weapons. b) Pakistan is an ally but still baloch rebels who had taken refuge in kabul were sent to switzerland once Pak pointed that out.c)Why is US holding seminars on Balochistan when that is our internal issue.

Above all it requires huge money to sustain against an army of Pak size for a decade something TTP has done so well where from they are getting their funds though many blames it on drug trade and even if we belive so for a second,Hashish is not cultivated in Pak in such huge amounts as is in af'tan and whoz letting that happen and then let it cross to pakistan why US and af'tan cant control that.India knows once we are done with issues at home we will raise again kashmir issue and would love to see us occupied at home and thats why is actively supporting baloch rebels and TTP as well .Unless all these foreign hands are cut off I cant see how we can just eliminate all the terrorists.

And the negative propaganda about Pak is ever rising ,they paint us as if we love these terrorists who kill our innocent civilians every day.

But I partially agree with second part that we need to have control on our land and ourselves as well but it becomes difficult when your opponents have such strong supporters and even that in disguise.

Hi,

If you cannot do all that---then do what you can control----you people need to think like a nation and not like a segregated group---.

Okay---confront the ACID throwing issue against women----make it a terrorist attack and give it a death sentence in a speedy trial. Child molesters, gang rapists, looters plunders----these criminals don't have the support of anyone---take them out---let the world see some kind of a better imgae ---at least you as a nation are doing something----.

But you guys---when you don't hear exact thing that needs to be done---you people don't want to do anything else---.

How many people here think that the culprits who stopped and burnt the train a couple of days ago---the police should have fired at the crowd---shoot to kill and then gone after those who started it and executed them----and how many of you think that it is not a big deal?

Aryan B---how are you? What difference does it make if you respect me or not----? But you got to stop your 'sob story' and come up with some thing that makes sense.

What I am saying---every nation that is on its way to success has done what I am saying in one way or the other---and none more so than the united states of america----and none other than china as well.

You babies keep whimpering when you are asked to do the 'manly' thing for the nation----do you people really think that the solid foundations of a nation are build on these lovey dovey ideologies.

Take out those asking for bribes----and don't say you did----don't boast don't bloat----just keep on doing it---take the bribe seekers out---when it keeps happening---the news will get out fast.

Do vigilante style of hangings---silent---quiet----pick them up and hang them---put a note and don't leave your dna or signature behind---they will get the message---10---or 15 of them in a city like karachi will make things easier----. Make the people honest---now that should be easier than taking out the al qaeda---you got to start somewhere---.

 

[Pfpilot]

Absolutely yes. It would be a mistake to assume that Pakistan is indispensable to China, and for any other major power, for that matter.

This has always amazed me. Pakistan should know better than any other nation how dispensable small nations with nonexistent resources are. The Americans have let a deep relationship with Pakistan decay on multiple occasions, with no worry of consequences or any real remorse. We, Pakistanis, offer very little that they can not gain else where.

For the Chinese, Pakistani value lay in it's relationship with the West. But as Pakistan continues to exasperate issues with the West, and China continues it's irresistible rise to economic relevancy, it will soon no longer need Pakistan in any relevant capacity. Unlike the case of the Israeli-American relationship, in which many Pakistanis find solace as a future model of Pak-China relations, Pakistanis don't dominate the corporate and political structure of China and hence have no real lobby in Beijing.

For a one sided relationship to continue, there has to be a more personal stake in a nation than China has in Pakistan. They treat us with respect now, because out of all the nations they consider allies, we are the only ones that have any legitimacy in the western world; as that decreases and their own power begins to expand...Pakistan will become irrelevant. Unlike the case of a nation like Israel, we will not have a large contingent of expat Pakistanis or Muslims in China fighting for a close relationship with Pakistan.

Interestingly, Pakistan remains relevant to China as long as Pakistan is relevant to the West. Without the relationship with America and Europe, we may soon find ourselves relieved of our sidekick role to the Chinese political and military machine. And while, China may have come through for us when the West was not on Pakistan's side in the 70s, let us not forget, that was a China in need of friends...not the nation of today laying claim to vast majority of the South China Sea with little help.

 

[VCheng]

This has always amazed me. .....................

It should not.

What you have posted is very correct, and has its roots in the self-delusionary mindset of those in control. It was fine for decades when only the nation was deluded to keep them in power, but now that they have started to believe in their own legends, the miscalculations leading to rapid descent into chaos are evident for all to see.

The real damage is that just about everyone who is sane - including China - sees this descent and are on the verge of concluding that it is not feasible to stop it.

 

[lem34]

Take out those asking for bribes----and don't say you did----don't boast don't bloat----just keep on doing it---take the bribe seekers out---when it keeps happening---the news will get out fast.

Do vigilante style of hangings---silent---quiet----pick them up and hang them---put a note and don't leave your dna or signature behind---they will get the message---10---or 15 of them in a city like karachi will make things easier----. Make the people honest---now that should be easier than taking out the al qaeda---you got to start somewhere---.

Even if some were to agree with your suggestions it is hardly something that we can be seen to be agreeing with you over the public internet.

If Mush could have been ruthless say like Zia it may have have been good. The only way we could have this is if a true patriot Army man came to the fore. An army man who is not pro American but pro Pakistan.

Our people neither have the appetite nor is Pakistan a country where we could have a revolution. We have to be careful any discord would be used by the likes of India to settle scores etc

This has always amazed me. Pakistan should know better than any other nation how dispensable small nations with nonexistent resources are. The Americans have let a deep relationship with Pakistan decay on multiple occasions, with no worry of consequences or any real remorse. We, Pakistanis, offer very little that they can not gain else where.

For the Chinese, Pakistani value lay in it's relationship with the West. But as Pakistan continues to exasperate issues with the West, and China continues it's irresistible rise to economic relevancy, it will soon no longer need Pakistan in any relevant capacity. Unlike the case of the Israeli-American relationship, in which many Pakistanis find solace as a future model of Pak-China relations, Pakistanis don't dominate the corporate and political structure of China and hence have no real lobby in Beijing.

For a one sided relationship to continue, there has to be a more personal stake in a nation than China has in Pakistan. They treat us with respect now, because out of all the nations they consider allies, we are the only ones that have any legitimacy in the western world; as that decreases and their own power begins to expand...Pakistan will become irrelevant. Unlike the case of a nation like Israel, we will not have a large contingent of expat Pakistanis or Muslims in China fighting for a close relationship with Pakistan.

Interestingly, Pakistan remains relevant to China as long as Pakistan is relevant to the West. Without the relationship with America and Europe, we may soon find ourselves relieved of our sidekick role to the Chinese political and military machine. And while, China may have come through for us when the West was not on Pakistan's side in the 70s, let us not forget, that was a China in need of friends...not the nation of today laying claim to vast majority of the South China Sea with little help.

All very well if you look at only part of the chess board that is the world today. Do take into account the butterfly effect is all I will say to you.

 

[explorer9]

I am not talking about individual opinion pieces, but official policy and pronouncements. American officials, from Obama to Romney, make no secret of confronting China, but the Chinese response is very muted. It is restricted to defending Chinese interests -- a defensive posture -- rather than an aggressive confrontational posture.



I have disabled PM in general because I was spending too much time with them.

However, my point remains. Other countries are pushing China to a confrontational posture -- the Chinese would rather bide their time and avoid conflict wherever possible. China is not keen to damage its position in the world unless it is absolutely, positively unavoidable to confront the US. Putin and Russia have dreams of regaining past Cold War equality and glory; the Chinese are not burdened with that emotional baggage to 'settle scores' with America.

Its not only damaging the Position.China has developed a lot but still there is a decade of gap between US (west) & china and China would not like to haunt its inclined growth by putting itself in any confrontation that's why it always gave soft posture and waiting for the right time.