The teeth of the Milgem light frigate, the Atmaca beyond line of sight strike missile

[Pakistani Fighter]

it means getting orders each time Pakistan scores as third-party sale of the LRMPA.

Pakistan is going to develop its own LRMPA?

 

[waz]

IIRC the PN is not ordering the ATMACA with the MILGEM. Even the Turks, as they understood it, the PN will add its own AShM (be it C-802A or Harbah), which is why it'll have access to the CMS and other subsystems.

I clearly read they are. Has there been official or unofficial sources clearly stating the opposite. I don't think this will ever be the case, it would be a grave mistake. As you stated yourself the integration of another strike weapon will be difficult, not to mention to ignore an already developed, tried and tested strike weapon is illogical.

Would our ship have this too?

The ships will have the YJ-12, again supersonic.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

The ships will have the YJ-12, again supersonic

If YJ 18 is better than better go for them for Anti Ship. They will already be there in our Subs

 

[waz]

If YJ 18 is better than better go for them for Anti Ship. They will already be there in our Subs

They come from the same family, so it's not a case of one being better. Also remember the YJ-18 is lighter and made specifically to fire from submarines.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Also remember the YJ-18 is lighter and made specifically to fire from submarines.

https://www.uscc.gov/research/china...pabilities-and-implications-us-forces-western
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YJ-18
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/yj-18.htm

I just think that for the next-gen LRMPA, the ATMACA AShM and ORKA lightweight torpedo (LWT) are fair game. In fact, I'd wager that the PN will even consider the SOM. The reason for this is rational: By looping in Turkish anti-sub and anti-ship munitions, the PN might get Turkish help in integrating and testing weapons to the LRMPA.

Integrating weapons to a platform you don't directly own is a tough and costly process.

Why can't PN go for Chinese munitions for LRMPA?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I clearly read they are. Has there been official or unofficial sources clearly stating the opposite. I don't think this will ever be the case, it would be a grave mistake. As you stated yourself the integration of another strike weapon will be difficult, not to mention to ignore an already developed, tried and tested strike weapon is illogical.



The ships will have the YJ-12, again supersonic.

It's from the man who interviewed the CNS re: the MILGEM configuration (and broke news re: VLS, etc)

Unlike the ADA Class, which can stay at sea for 10 days, the Jinnah Class Frigates will be able to stay at sea for 15 days, and the ships will be armed with Chinese C-802 guided anti-ship missiles instead of Harpoon or ATMACA missiles. The Pakistan Navy is also expected to place the Harba Anti-ship Cruise Missile in the Jinnah Class vessels in the future.

https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/content/a-look-at-latest-status-of-the-pn-milgem-project-3824
​

https://www.uscc.gov/research/china...pabilities-and-implications-us-forces-western
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YJ-18
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/yj-18.htm


Why can't PN go for Chinese munitions for LRMPA?

It can, but if you can get someone with some experience doing custom integration work (like Roketsan did for the C295 and AW149) to offset some costs, then why not? If the LRMPA can carry SOM, then it'll get the much wanted strike capability folks want PN to have via JH-7s.

 

[waz]

https://www.uscc.gov/research/china...pabilities-and-implications-us-forces-western
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YJ-18
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/yj-18.htm

Yes it can be fired from other platforms but look at the links you posted. The missile I referred to is the YJ-18B i.e. the submarine variant.
Now you stated how comes we don't have this same missile for all our platforms, I'll explain why. The two missiles operate differently.
First the YJ-18 is subsonic on launch and for most of the flight, then positions into supersonic flight for its terminal and strike phase. Now with the open seas/oceans radars can pick up such launches quickly, which enables countermeasures to be ready/deployed i.e. anything from altering course to readying interception systems. Now with submarines that's fine, as by their nature they very difficult to track and find, which gives them the element of surprise and an envelope of time with which they can achieve a successful hit.
Surface vessels do not have such luxury, and can be spotted from various intelligence gathering platforms e.g. AWACS, and also have to contend with opposing radar. They need a fast strike weapon which narrows the time frame for an enemy to react, hence the use of YJ-12 which is supersonic throughout flight duration to target.
The JF-17 already utilises this weapon, so conformity is needed with the surface vessels.

On a side point Why do you think the IN places such an emphasis on BRAHMOS?

Now yes the PLAN do have the YJ-18 on their ships, however the sheer size of the Chinese fleets and the fact that their ships operate multiple weapons systems gives them this choice. The Pakistani navy's limitations does not allow for this and in basic terms means there is less margin for error in our case.

It's from the man who interviewed the CNS re: the MILGEM configuration (and broke news re: VLS, etc)

Unlike the ADA Class, which can stay at sea for 10 days, the Jinnah Class Frigates will be able to stay at sea for 15 days, and the ships will be armed with Chinese C-802 guided anti-ship missiles instead of Harpoon or ATMACA missiles. The Pakistan Navy is also expected to place the Harba Anti-ship Cruise Missile in the Jinnah Class vessels in the future.

https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/content/a-look-at-latest-status-of-the-pn-milgem-project-3824/
​

Thanks for that, I do hope they go back on that and there's every chance they would especially with the advancement the Turks have made with the Atmaca. The C-802 can already be fired from the F-22's, it would be good to mix it up.​

 

[AUz]

Atleast one person observed it.
India already extended brahmos range to 450 kms.
Not to forget india already testing air brahmos

Are Air-launched Brahmos naval capable? I thought only air force is testing them for now.

Pakistan's Harbah missile (Babur naval launch version) is a mystery in terms of its range since the navy hasn't officially confirmed its range. Babur's range is 700-750km. If the range is the same for ship launched Babur in anti-ship mode, then it will solve the issue by giving Pak Navy the edge in outranging IN. But we don't know that for sure yet.

It would be interesting if Pakistan could deploy air-launched Ra'ad in anti-ship role. Turkish SOM has the capability of attacking both land and sea targets. Pakistan could get guidance systems from Turkey to mate-em with 600km air launched Ra'ad, hypothetically.

 

[Armchair]

I think what makes most sense is a Pakistani AShM on the Jinnah Class. Either Harbah or the new supersonic one being tested.

 

[ANMDT]

Unlike the ADA Class, which can stay at sea for 10 days

It's from the man who interviewed the CNS re: the MILGEM configuration (and broke news re: VLS, etc)

Unlike the ADA Class, which can stay at sea for 10 days, the Jinnah Class Frigates will be able to stay at sea for 15 days, and the ships will be armed with Chinese C-802 guided anti-ship missiles instead of Harpoon or ATMACA missiles. The Pakistan Navy is also expected to place the Harba Anti-ship Cruise Missile in the Jinnah Class vessels in the future.

https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/content/a-look-at-latest-status-of-the-pn-milgem-project-3824
​

It can, but if you can get someone with some experience doing custom integration work (like Roketsan did for the C295 and AW149) to offset some costs, then why not? If the LRMPA can carry SOM, then it'll get the much wanted strike capability folks want PN to have via JH-7s.

Regarding to LRMPA, SOM-J would be a better option isn't it?
Some facts:
I am really curious how they managed to stretch 10 Days to 15 Days, after changing CODAG to CODAD increasing complement by 40 more crew and adding 16 VLS.
Based on these facts, Jinnah class will be rather based on İstanbul Class, not Ada Class. Istanbul Class was elongated on midst of the ship and front of bridge (behind of the cannon), i presume Jinnah class will be elongated the same way to make space for diesels and VLS on the front.

One question:
-What is height of HHQ-16 missile (HQ16A/B)?, i found some information stating 5.2 meters, which needs around 6 meters height for fitting the VLS, does not quite look possible to fit behind the cannon without elevated deck-platform. Is it for sure HQ-16 or HQ-7?

My personal comments:
model scale hydrodynamic tests took place around November (2019), it could have been a demonstration for Pakistani delegate or the actual hull form might have been tested. It was only towing test, not followed by other ones so we can presume it was a demonstration.or earlier evaluation form.

Name of project really bugs my mind, Milgem has referred to entire of the project from Ada-Class to TF2000. This project rather focuses on Ada or Istanbul Class ships.

And in the last, Who tells this guy (Author of the article) that Ada class can reach up to 31 knots, seems like he is making it up. Even Turkish Navy officially declares it as 29 knots, some has rounded off 29.3 and made up "30" It is not critical information but he should learn not to post everything he has heard. (PS: Ada class can go faster than he knows but anyway)

Quoted from the article :

which consists of two 32MW diesel engines and a gas turbine,

#facepalm could be a typo but still ,we are lucky he didn't calculate range of Ada class by product of 10 days * 24 hours * 29 miles (some other author has done this mistake and insisted not to correct, as he believed it was the true range)
It makes me happier (than other countries which was interested on Ada-class) to see that Pakistan will sail one of the Milgems' variant.

 

[waz]

Are Air-launched Brahmos naval capable? I thought only air force is testing them for now.

Bro the Brahmos have gone through significant naval testing and it is the default strike weapon of the Indian Navy.

Pakistan's Harbah missile (Babur naval launch version) is a mystery in terms of its range since the navy hasn't officially confirmed its range.

500-700km estimated. But like you wrote, it's classified.

Regarding to LRMPA, SOM-J

Thanks bro for turning up on one of my threads. As a navy rep your knowledge is invaluable.

But it's only been air launched at this point in time?

Based on these facts, Jinnah class will be rather based on İstanbul Class, not Ada Class. Istanbul Class was elongated on midst of the ship and front of bridge (behind of the cannon), i presume Jinnah class will be elongated the same way to make space for diesels and VLS on the front.

Makes sense, and at the same time makes me very excited.

One question:
-What is height of HHQ-16 missile (HQ16A/B)?, i found some information stating 5.2 meters, which needs around 6 meters height for fitting the VLS, does not quite look possible to fit behind the cannon without elevated deck-platform. Is it for sure HQ-16 or HQ-7?

Yes that's correct, the rest doesn't match up, unless it's a larger sized ship.

 

[AUz]

Bro the Brahmos have gone through significant naval testing and it is the default strike weapon of the Indian Navy.

Ofc I know that....but air-launched Brahmos is a newer version that is going tests with IAF. So its not automatically assumed to have naval-capability. Altho it might eventually develop it.

 

[waz]

Ofc I know that....but air-launched Brahmos is a newer version that is going tests with IAF. So its not automatically assumed to have naval-capability. Altho it might eventually develop it.

Yes the testing is recent, it happened in May last year. But the fact remains it's primary use is naval so adjustments from an arial firing platform should only really be minor.

 

[cabatli_53]

Turkey is progressing by leap and bounds in its Defence Infrastructure,very impressive indeed. I would also like to point out maybe both brotherly countries can collaborate on a SUPERSONIC CM as well. We also need something that can match BRAHMOS in the neighbourhood.

• Başlıca deniz tehdit unsurlarına karşı temel taarruz yeteneğine sahip füze sisteminin kalifikasyonu tamamlanacaktır
• Gelişmiş deniz tehdit unsurlarına karşı arttırılmış taarruz yeteneğine sahip füze sisteminin ön tasarım aşaması tamamlanacaktır

http://www.ssm.gov.tr/anasayfa/kurumsal/Documents/SSM_STRATEJIK_PLAN_2017-2021.pdf

SSM strategy document 2017-2021 (later, It was updated with 2018-2022) revealed two strategic naval missile system.

-The first one is about completion of qualification for a missile system having basic attacking capability against primary naval threats.(Atmaca SSM)
-The second one is about completion of design process of a missile system having enhanced attacking capability against advanced naval threats.(Supersonic Anti-ship missile)


Mr Gürcan OKUMUŞ, the head of Tübitak SAGE; “We are working on Ramjet. We have a Ramjet missile project that is officially proceeding. The project continues very successfully, but the most important thing for ramjet development is its infrastructure. Designing a ramjet means you have reason to test ramjet propulsion systems. Our infrastructure work continues. It is over 90%. We can say that you have supersonic missiles with RAMJET.“

Source:defenceturkey

Mr Okumuş “ Meteor-like supersonic A2A missile would be possible in 10 years period. There are also plans for solid fuel ramjet, but in the first place, the process is progressing for the development of liquid fuel ramjet engine.”

Mr Okumuş “"A hypersonic missile. I can say that the development of a missile with ramjet, scramjet, reaching 6-7-8 Mach speeds, entering mass production and taking it into inventory is my biggest dream.".

 

[cabatli_53]

Defenceturkey