The Swat Negotiations

[KnightRyder]

Pakistan is one muslim country with tremendous talents and skills in the area of Islamic scholarship. The fact that we have very well established religious schools and institutions of higher religious learning, not to mention remarkable muslim scholars. Before 911 Pakistan used to get over 50K foreign muslim students across the world but numbers drastically dropped after 911 due to visa restrictions.

Some of the largest religious Islamic organizations in the world are based in Pakistan. To name a few:

Hanafi- Brailvey :
Dawat-e-Islam
Minhaj-ul-Quran by Dr. Tahir ul Qadri

Deoband:
Tabligh Jamat
Jamat-e-Ulema Pakistan

Salafi:
Ahle-Hadith Foundation
Dr. Israr Ahmed


Political Groups;
Jamaat-e-Islami
MMA



These groups have very large followers. What role are our ulema playing in regards to the fitna that has ensued in Swat and NWFP?

What are their opinions towards jihadi groups such as TTP, TNSP, etc.?

Aren't they openly condemning what the TTP is doing in Swat or are they embracing them?

 

[DarkStar]

I would include dr. israr ahmad's tanzeem e islami under the political groups section. the ideology of dr.israr ahmad is 9/10ths based upon Maulana maudoodi and his jamate islami.

 

[DarkStar]

The biggest problem could be the deobandi section of society, as they might feel a natural affinity to the taliban who espouse or claim deobandi beliefs.

If the deobandi madrassas decide that it is their fight too, we will see a drastic escalation, as the madrassas can provide instant recruits to any jihad.

This was the case when hundreds of madrassa students flocked afghanistan during the taliban regime.

 

[KnightRyder]

The biggest problem could be the deobandi section of society, as they might feel a natural affinity to the taliban who espouse or claim deobandi beliefs.

If the deobandi madrassas decide that it is their fight too, we will see a drastic escalation, as the madrassas can provide instant recruits to any jihad.

This was the case when hundreds of madrassa students flocked afghanistan during the taliban regime.

Pakistani madrassahs are synonymous to any other civilian institutions of learning like universities or colleges. So Why should Pakistani Madrassah's take up the fight that the Government of Pakistan aka Musharaff signed up w/ the U.S. without their consent? Would you also say that Pakistani university and colleges should take up arms to fight taliban?

I'm more concerned about the role of Senior Ulema in defusing the tension and conflict peacefully through diplomacy. So I am concerned what role are they playing?

The whole scheme of the CIA is to bring the war into Pakistan and alienate the Taliban from civilian groups and populations and make groups fight each other for eternity or till the nukes dry up...and I hope and pray that we never see that day.

I dont know which madrassa students flocked to Afghanistan during taliban regime. were they afganis? were they Pakistanis? and which madrasaah and which deobandi ulema gave them permission. i dont know the whole report. but i do know that some people crossed the border to help the taliban and never returned. so i cant really comment on it.

 

[Pashtun]

I'm more concerned about the role of Senior Ulema in defusing the tension and conflict peacefully through diplomacy. So I am concerned what role are they playing?

I heard the Mufti-e-Azam Pakistan on Aalim Online with Dr. Liaquat that the "talibans" who were killing around were not the people of Madrassahs. They are the "foreigners" and he clearly said he got reports that a lot of 'taliban' fighters killed in the clashes were not circumcised (tho thats quiet a famous news anyway).

And he very clearly said that armed resistance for Shariah should be abandoned at once and an another way should be adapted to seek the implementation of Islamic Law.

He mentioned all the ulema supports the call for implemntation of Islamic Law not only in Swat but in entire country (no surprises there tho).

And I would believe he speaks for the majority of the Ulema? Since he is Mufti-e-Azam of Pakistan.

The whole scheme of the CIA is to bring the war into Pakistan and alienate the Taliban from civilian groups and populations and make groups fight each other for eternity or till the nukes dry up...and I hope and pray that we never see that day.

Bulls eye. And as much as I don't want to see that day, something in me telling me it's being brought on us by brainwsahing our so called "enlightened" public in to believing that supporting US in this WoT is what best in Pakistan's interests. The game has been played very well from their (allied forces) end, tho our real strategists are also at par.

I dont know which madrassa students flocked to Afghanistan during taliban regime. were they afganis? were they Pakistanis? and which madrasaah and which deobandi ulema gave them permission. i dont know the whole report. but i do know that some people crossed the border to help the taliban and never returned. so i cant really comment on it.

There were close to 10,000 volunteers who went to Afghanistan in 2001 to fight Americans (not helping Talebans, but to fight the invading americans) along with Sufi Muhammad (who was captured while he returned from Afghanistan abandoning the volunteers). About 3000 or so volunteers were returned as claimed. Rest everyone was massacred right under the nose of AA.

Talk about Madrassahs... I can't give you an accurate figure, but scholarly analysis with the passage of time points to less than 5% among those left for Afghanistan (in that particular batch) were from Madrassahs. Everyone else were common people, from all over Pakistan (tho majority from NWFP). They (whoever they were) litterally recruited people by announcing it in the streets. They use to come in pickups with loud speakers and call for the struggle against invading armies by donating, or joining the fighters going for jihad.

So there was an absolute majority of literally common people (not madrassah students) who answered the call and went to fight the americans, not knowingly that there were no Americans on the ground rather it will be carpet bombing. And there was nobody to stop them. Even the Army on the Bajaur and Torkham Border, did not stop them rather said they will be joining them as well (watch the video below).

Here's an eye opener BBC Doc... about that drama when thousands went to fight Americans. It explains the events and the situation leading to people volunteering to fight.

[video=google;-4840452619934055202]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4840452619934055202[/video]

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

just a note, I wouldn't go as far as declaring or casting off tanzeem-e-islaami as a part of the Ahle-Hadith or Salafi movement. Maududi is his influence, his group is an off-shoot from Jamaat-i-islami.

The biggest problem could be the deobandi section of society, as they might feel a natural affinity to the taliban who espouse or claim deobandi beliefs.

If the deobandi madrassas decide that it is their fight too, we will see a drastic escalation, as the madrassas can provide instant recruits to any jihad.

This was the case when hundreds of madrassa students flocked afghanistan during the taliban regime.

Militants running around in Pakistan, are too diverse to be categorized as deobandi. sure, you may have the pashtuns in the groups, subscribing to the deobandi school of thought. yet, you have a ton of uzbeks, egyptians, chechens who subscribe to the salafi movement. yet, all of these militants have took a step further, and morphed an ideology of their own, based on takfiri line of thought.

though there isn't really much we could do about the foreign militants, our own problems with our own miscreants can be solved very easily if some of the deobandi scholars took the initiative-which they're not doing. Personally, I believe that the Deobandi madrassahs are just turning into mass production plants, their only aim is to produce as many alims as possible. I used to admire the school, but I'm upset with the quality I'm seeing. there used to be a time, when intellectual giants came out of these madrassahs. unfortunately, that's becoming a thing of the past with these guys dying out.

Don't get me wrong, there are capable scholars here and there-my own teacher was a student of mufti-azam Rafi Usmani. However, we all see how some of these pseudo-alims give fiery sermons on friday, without any thought or caution. I grew used to the routine of listening to conspiracy theories at the masjid in front of my house. these guys blast almost everything they see, marking everyone who doesn't agree with them as hypocrites and "zalims". everyday in the masjid, it was nothing but politics. no hadith, no fiqh, no tafseer, just politics by a shady alim.

 

[DarkStar]

The taliban are avowedly Deobandi. After the first time they captured Mazare Sharif, mosques in Pakistan welcomed the first Deobandi State.

Dr. Israr Ahmad even asked for the unification of AFghanistan and Pakistan into a grand state, just in time to welcome Imam Mehdi.

The deobandi ulema were eagerly following every advance of the Taliban, I still remember a very excited Maulana Zahidur Rashidi (a noble ascetic). Many of the high ranking taliban and rank and file came from Madrassas along the border, especially Haqqania of Maulana Sami ul Haq.

Harkatul Ansar/Jihad and other deobandi organisations recruited boys from even places like Karachi to help in the jihad. This was before 9/11. Most did not do more than four month stints. A general call to arms was held in certain Madrassas after the 'massacre' of taliban by the Hizbe Wahdat mlitia the first time they captured Mazar Sharif (this was when Saudi, Pak, and UAE recognised the Taliban state)


As for ulema saying something on t.v., we all know that it is sanitised. That is one of our problems, they say different things in pvt, others in speeches on a friday, and then something else on t.v. Why do you think they have not been able to gain the trust of the people in 50 years?

 

[KnightRyder]

The taliban are avowedly Deobandi. After the first time they captured Mazare Sharif, mosques in Pakistan welcomed the first Deobandi State.

Dr. Israr Ahmad even asked for the unification of AFghanistan and Pakistan into a grand state, just in time to welcome Imam Mehdi.

The deobandi ulema were eagerly following every advance of the Taliban, I still remember a very excited Maulana Zahidur Rashidi (a noble ascetic). Many of the high ranking taliban and rank and file came from Madrassas along the border, especially Haqqania of Maulana Sami ul Haq.

Harkatul Ansar/Jihad and other deobandi organisations recruited boys from even places like Karachi to help in the jihad. This was before 9/11. Most did not do more than four month stints. A general call to arms was held in certain Madrassas after the 'massacre' of taliban by the Hizbe Wahdat mlitia the first time they captured Mazar Sharif (this was when Saudi, Pak, and UAE recognised the Taliban state)

You still havn't provided proof that Taliban are Deobandis bro.

Just because Dr. Israr Ahmed and a handful of other Deobandi scholars and pupils supported them in bringing peace and stability to Afghanistan by establishing an Islamic state doesn't make the Taliban Deobandi in their beliefs.

Saudi Arabia is staunchly Salafi/Ahle-Hadith recognized the Taliban as u stated, and many die-hard Saudi Salafi/Ahle-Hadith scholars supported the Taliban as well. therefore going by this train of logic one can easily conclude that Taliban are Salafi/Ahle-Hadith. Which I am sure is clearly not the case.


Fallacy of association. and i am certainly not falling for it.

one could say that the Taliban are very close to the Deoband school in fiqh and aqeedah. also another commonality amongst them is their historical resistance to colonialist/imperialist regimes. This does not mean that they share the same ideologies. There are vast differences between both groups. Look at them historically, for example, Deoband was founded by Indian scholars to revive Islamic religious learning and uphold Islam in the face of colonial oppression and it produced tremendous scholarship and added tremendously to the intellectual heritage of Islamic learning. On the other hand, Taliban were not founded on any learning based grounds, they're simply a fighting jihadi militia with a limited objective of driving invaders out and establishing their version of an islamic emirate.

Last but not least, Deoband school is rigidly organized in its beliefs. It neither leans to the extremes of Sufism nor it accepts the reactionary anti-mathabism. Whereas Taliban not only accept some anti-mathabist Al-Qaeda miscreants, they aid and abet and shelter those takfiri elements. Therefore how can one establish that the Taliban are Deobandi when evidence on ground points in opposite direction?

As for ulema saying something on t.v., we all know that it is sanitised. That is one of our problems, they say different things in pvt, others in speeches on a friday, and then something else on t.v. Why do you think they have not been able to gain the trust of the people in 50 years?

This seems to be more of a rant with various generalizations than anything else. Which Alim speaks with double standards on and off tv? Please present cases of many ulema with established facts in order to make your point clear.

Many Ulema are blessed with gaining the trust of the people. I can name many top ulema from Deoband and Brailvy schools. Mufti Muneebur Rehman, Mufti Rafi Usmani, Mufti Taqi Usmani, and one of the most popular these days Maulana Tariq Jameel...the list goes on...

 

[Cheetah786]

A general call to arms was held in certain Madrassas after the 'massacre' of taliban by the Hizbe Wahdat mlitia the first time they captured Mazar Sharif (this was when Saudi, Pak, and UAE recognised the Taliban state)

Massacre by Talibans is the correct way of putting it they killed over 20,000 shias and Talibans Are wahabies(supported and finnaced by house of saud recognised by Saudi, Pak, and UAE ) not Deobandi.

 

[fatman17]

Pakistan: Taliban Agrees to Permanent Cease-fire in Swat

By VOA News

21 February 2009

SWAT Valley

Government officials in Pakistan say they have reached a permanent cease-fire agreement with Taliban militants in the northwestern valley of Swat.

Syed Muhammed Javed, the commissioner of the Malakand region, which includes Swat, announced the agreement on Saturday.

The head of a hardline group of Pakistani Taliban, Maulana Fazlullah, is expected to make a radio announcement about the deal in the coming hours.

Fazlullah's father-in-law, Sufi Muhammad, who leads a separate Islamist group in Swat, reached an agreement last week with local officials to impose Islamic law (Sharia) in the region if his militants lay down their arms.

Taliban officials say Muhammad met with Fazlullah earlier this week to negotiate peace.

Militants from various factions operate in northwestern Pakistan. Some use the territory to launch attacks in neighboring Afghanistan, targeting local and international forces.

The United States and NATO have both expressed concern that the deal reached with militants last week could provide a safe haven for extremists in the already volatile region.

Meanwhile, officials say a roadside bomb exploded near a fuel tanker on a Pakistani supply line in the Khyber district used by NATO forces in Afghanistan. One person was killed, and two others wounded in the blast.


Some information for this report was provided by AP and Reuters.

 

[ajpirzada]

great if this is true...
if they lay down their arms and in return gov implements shariah, i would say not a bad deal. hope no one from outside messes the whole thing up

 

[Omar1984]

Great news. Yesterday on Ptv news they were showing girls from Swat and the girls were saying that they really wanted to go back to school and seek a good education so they can help their country.

 

[batmannow]

thats is the best work, done by "PRESIDENT ZARDARI " & this PPP GOVT, even they did it under the great preasure from PAKARMY.

 

[ajpirzada]

Taliban agree to ‘permanent ceasefire’ in Swat
Saturday, 21 Feb, 2009 | 06:26 PM PST | ‘They will observe a permanent ceasefire and we’ll do the same,’ the commissioner of Malakand told reporters. — AP MINGORA: Taliban fighters and Pakistani officials have agreed to a 'permanent ceasefire' in the northwestern Swat valley, a senior government official said on Saturday.

Taliban commander Maulana Fazlullah, also known as Mullah Radio because he uses illegal FM radio to spread his message, was expected to announce the ceasefire later.

'They have made a commitment that they will observe a permanent ceasefire and we'll do the same,' Syed Mohammad Javed, the Commissioner of Malakand, told reporters after meeting with elders in Swat.

Around 1,200 people have been killed and between 250,000 and 500,000 people have fled the valley which lies within the Malakand division of North West Frontier Province.

Western governments, and many Pakistanis, have been alarmed by the government's offer to reinstate sharia law in Malakand if the Taliban agreed to peace.

They fear that a ceasefire could result in another sanctuary in Pakistan where al Qaeda and Taliban militants could move freely, and also worry that Taliban fighters elsewhere in the region will be encouraged by the government's move.

Last Sunday, militants called a 10-day ceasefire in the valley as a 'goodwill gesture' towards the peace talks.

Javed said efforts were being made to persuade the Taliban to allow girls' schools to reopen. Militants had torched around 200 girls' schools in Swat in a campaign against female education. Boys' schools will reopen on Monday.

The ceasefire announcement came a day after Fazlullah met his father-in-law, Maulana Sufi Mohammad, a radical cleric freed by the government to negotiate peace.

IN PRINCIPLE

The deal was agreed in principle on Monday by the government for NWFP and Sufi Mohammad, who then carried back the proposals to Fazlullah. He is said to have forged links with other Pakistani jihadi groups and al Qaeda.

Sufi Mohammad led a revolt in 1994 in an attempt to bring sharia law back to Swat, and went on to lead an army of thousands of tribesmen in a futile attempt to help Taliban and al Qaeda fighters hold off US-led forces in 2001.

He was arrested after his return to Pakistan and spent six years in jail before the government released him last year.

Taliban spokesman Muslim Khan told Reuters that Fazlullah would make an announcement on the radio shortly.

'I can't say what he would say but there would be good news for people of Swat,' Khan said.

Pakistani officials said US officials had urged Pakistan to exert more force in Swat, rather than negotiate.

But the army is fighting Taliban insurgencies elsewhere in the northwest, notably the tribal regions of Bajaur and Mohmand, and wants to be supplied with counter-insurgency equipment.

Former Interior Minister Aftab Ahmed Khan Sherpao, who survived at least two assassination attempts by Pakistani Taliban suicide bombers in late 2007, said any agreement would be fagile.

'For the time being, Fazlullah might bow to what his father-in-law and teacher says, but later he could sabotage everything by making any excuse,' Sherpao said.

http://beta.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connec...fp/taliban-agree-permanent-ceasefire-swat--qs

 

[ajpirzada]

it will be a great and bold step by GoP, given they dont backout after comin under international pressure