The Siachen reality

[Subramanian]

Read Your sources correctly cuz Army even never took part in Kargil conflict, it was NLI who kicked your Bharti A$$e$ . Shot down your two jets and chopper.. Killed more then 500 soldiers and wounded more then thousand. Those were our bodies we collected it. You looked like one of among Brahmin slave.. try to read more sources instead of hearing stories from Pandits..

Acha,what glory sitting on top of mountains and giving fire to people climbing?

This must be the bravest of the people ever? What courage,firing from mountain tops?

The funny part is we have people to glorify it also?

 

[Subramanian]

Maleeha Lodhi is a disgrace to Pakistan, she is clearly lying to defame the world's best intelligence body. I tell you what really happened. That was not any intelligence failure, in reality our ISI had far more important things to do then wasting its energy on gathering these kinds of useless informations on useless Siachen. Zia is on record as saying that Siachen is not vital for Pakistan where even grass doesn't grow. The mujahid e Islam knew what he was saying. When the Indians were planning to capture the Siachen glacier, the agents of our ISI were busy recording the telephone calls of politicians, judges and their wives. They were too busy blackmailing, bullying and forcing the important people of losse character into joining the Real Islamic Party of real Muslims Zia the Messiah wanted to have. The ISI was too busy keeping an eye on those who might pose a danger to the raaj of our glorious army. Therefore, I can say it with all confidence and certainty , there was no intelligence failure but the matter of priorities. They were even more stupid if they ordered their winter clothes from that tailor who used to sew bespoke dhotis for our Hindu friends.

Every failure has excuses and they serve nothing.

Such talk ll only help,What if arguments?

I am not complaining,though.

you captured siachen like cowards dear and uptil now more indian army men died on siachen then pakistan army

so what? we have a much bigger population than you do.

 

[Bang Galore]

Come on Bang. This is unlike you. He proves youre talking rubbish and backs it up with facts. Then you change the goalposts just to attempt to confirm you were correct all along - not like you. Dont change or the respect one has for you will dwindle.
Look at the posts that are going backwards and forwards. "You lost more troops than we did" bla bla bla. You guys are relentless. Does it change the situation?
Reality is a few too many have been lost on both sides of the border. One cant expect or take pleasure in the thought. Doesnt matter which side of the border you sit. Dont make the scenario sound like "axis and allies" or "Risk" - these are real lives belonging to real countries with real families.

Not quite correct. In my original post I had used the word weather related to say that Indian soldiers had not died in the Siachen of cold related causes for the past 8 years. This was in response to a common assertion made by many on both sides but especially on Pakistan's side about casualties caused by the cold & high altitude. However his reply while talking about heli crashes which were not relevant did also talk about avalanches which could be considered weather related. Hence the clarification. Also I did point out that all the reports cited did not add up to a significant number to justify the off quoted phrase of India loosing one soldier a day or thereabouts.

I agree with the point you made about any loss being unnecessary and would be delighted if Indian & Pakistan could do that both at Siachen as well as other areas of equally miserable conditions (Karil-Drass specially).

(On the issue of deaths in Siachen, it does seem that the claim of no Indian casualties in Siachen is slightly misleading & based on certain parameters being excluded. Therefore I accept that my point was not correct in the absolute and stand corrected. However everything I have read indicated a very low mortality rate-everything included. The Indian deaths in Siachen peaked in 1999 at 70 year and has since fallen to an average of 3-4 a year. These include normal & abnormal medical conditions as well as other accidents.)

 

[LiberalAtheist]

for one to think that India would invade the Baltoro glacier is just insane we are talking about the world's tallest mountains at conditions that make Antarctica look like a summer resort the Karkorum range is very inhospitable and to go through it would take a lot of time and money which Indian politicians would not dare spend

 

[karan.1970]

And you call yourself democracy???

Please explain?

 

[aks18]

for one to think that India would invade the Baltoro glacier is just insane we are talking about the world's tallest mountains at conditions that make Antarctica look like a summer resort the Karkorum range is very inhospitable and to go through it would take a lot of time and money which Indian politicians would not dare spend

baltoro and concordia is not kids game dear

What we have learnt from Siachen is useful to entire Humanity and not just our army. Your comprehension skills fail you, miserably.

DRDO


Commendation Card for Studies in Avalanche Problems in Siachen to Col K C Agrawal for 1985 .


Commendation Card for studies of Snow and Avalanche Problems in Siachen to Capt Anup Singh Dogra for 1988.



Sena Medal for Services of exceptional order in establishing AWS in Siachen to Sub TK Mukhopadhyay for 1999.




http://www.genecampaign.org/Publication/Article/Biodiversity/Indo Pak Peace.pdf


India and Pakistan , as the entire sub- continent is home to several thousand species of plant, insect
and animal life. This biological wealth is one of the most sought after resources in the world today.
The Indian subcontinent contains some of the most important biodiversity „Hot -Spot „ areas of the
world, regions where a particularly rich and varied level of biodiversity is found in high
concentrations. This region is home to several varieties of food and cash crops and has contributed
significantly to the stability in global agriculture. The famed Basmati being poached by America ,
belongs to the Indo- Pak region. The subcontinent has contributed atleast 20,000 varieties of rice to
the International Gene Bank in the Philippines. Similarly it has contributed many kinds of pulses, peas
and beans , other kinds of cereal like ragi , vegetables and spices to various gene banks across the
world.
A Gene Bank is one of the facilities necessary to conserve the fast eroding genetic diversity in our
fields. If we fail to conserve our genetic (biological ) diversity, we risk the future food security of this
country , as also of the world. In addition to plant varieties in agriculture, there is an urgent need to
save our forest resources, the animal and fish varieties in our rivers , the insects and the
microorganisms of our region. Biological resources not only constitute the basis of our food security
and the foundation of our rural and tribal economies. In this era of biotechnology, the raw material of
which is biological resources, these are a very valuable economic resource and highly sought after by
the multinational biotechnology industry. The need to conserve our biological wealth is greater than
ever before

Making a gene bank in the Siachen would really be quite a simple affair. All the technical know-how
is available at the National Gene Bank in Delhi. What is essentially required is for seed samples to be
treated appropriately for long term storage, put into special aluminium pouches, labelled properly and
put into the bank. What is important is that the samples can be retrieved periodically and sent back
to the field to test that nothing has gone wrong in storage and that they are still viable . The seeds
derived from these grown-out samples can go back to the bank. Suitable sites in the Siachen can be
selected as , so to speak, Ice Cupboards where boxes containing the aluminium pouches can be
stored.


________________


Vegetable seeds have been developed that can be cultivated in Siachen. Lot of other products have been developed for military use in Siachen that also have civil use.

i was looking for some neutral link not DRDO links what i have read reports on siachen an average every day a indian soldier looses a life in siachen glacier i am not asking about cultivation of vegetables in siachen vegetables cant fight for soldiers again nature

 

[Bang Galore]

Getting real on Siachen

Shahzad Chaudhry
Wednesday, April 18, 2012



By now all of us know MJ9842, the actual ground position line (AGPL) on the Saltoro Ridge, and the three passes that flow downwards from Saltoro to Pakistan’s northern areas merging into the erstwhile combined territories of AJK &NA. We know the history of this conflict and its current state; also the respective positions that both India and Pakistan hold on the way forward and the divergence in those views which when stated plainly makes any resolution a non-starter unless one side gives in.



The recent interring of 139 Pakistani troops and their battalion headquarters, however, has brought the spotlight back on the utility of such senseless deployment on both sides. I also have on record a statement of some retired, and still responsible, senior Indian military officers who have categorically declared Siachen without any strategic value to India. The Pakistanis too make the same point having been on the receiving end of a 28 year old war which hasn’t seen a bullet fired in anger since 2003. Yet 8000 have lost their lives on both sides of Saltoro Ridge.



This is why? The Siachen Glacier as the 90 km long and about 50 km wide snow-mass sits between the Karakoram in the north and the Hindu Kush in the west. It juts out from within these physical boundaries through the various passes that saddle the divide along Saltoro. The farthest of these along this ridge is the Indra Kol. The eastern most point on the Karakorams is the Karakoram Pass where the three countries, India, China and Pakistan meet before the terrain moves further east into Tibet from that point.



Almost a subtended centre of this northern base is the demarcated point MJ9842. This makes this bounded region an inverted triangle whose apex sits at 9842, while its base runs along the Pak-China border between Indra Koli and the Karakoram Pass. With India having occupied the Saltoro Ridge in 1984 in a pre-emptive move, this entire triangle now is under its occupation.



The Indian stance, when negotiating on Siachen, is to disregard the 3500 square kilometres area bounded by the triangle and instead focuses on the AGPL alone which contains their deployed positions on the Saltoro Ridge. Similar to the Simla Agreement they seek the conversion of the AGPL into a LoC extending from its present position at MJ9842 to their current line of holding. Pakistan, however, seeks to declare the entire area within the inverted triangle as the contested region just as the Kashmir dispute stands formulated despite an LoC that demarcates the two parts of Kashmir under the control of the two nations. India only grants the ridge as the line of conflict, disregarding the area behind while Pakistan seeks settlement of the entire region enclosed within the triangle.



Pakistan, though, is willing to settle for any interim solution in Siachen without prejudicing the claims of either side. Both sides will do well to emphasise that any interim solution that they ‘may’ reach will not prejudice their respective claims till a final settlement is reached. But I get too far ahead of me, though it is an important point to register. That explains the intractability of the Siachen issue.



Let’s now move to the evolving grander design. To anyone who looks at the map it will become abundantly clear that the terrain slopes down the Saltoro Ridge into the northern areas of Pakistan and thence to the adjoining Kashmir region under the control of Pakistan. The snow-mass that submerged the Pakistani positions last fortnight drifted down along these slopes.



It remains the impassability of the terrain which has kept India from moving down the slopes in a grand encirclement manoeuvre, at least in the theoretical sense, along the Northern Areas of Pakistan to envelop the Pakistani controlled territories of Azad Jammu and Kashmir. That explains the strategic potential, though the force and the terrain needed to execute this would be almost impossible in quantum, capacity and capability with a terribly long logistic chain. Who says that isn’t strategically significant for a nation whose strategic vision is still evolving?



Next, by sitting across at the Karakoram if the triangle is ceded to India – as she desires by recognising and recording her current position along the AGPL – she sits on the door between China and Pakistan and also on the western gate to Tibet. Keep in mind that China has linked its Western Sinkiang Province to Tibet through a network of highways and planned railroads that will sit just across the Indian position on the Karakoram. It doesn’t get more strategic than that for all sides. India also assumes that China has made a steady foray into the bordering regions of India in Pakistan’s Northern Areas in the garb of developmental works such as the Karakoram Road Project and the Neelum-Jhelum Power project and is happy to have driven a wedge of sorts in a physical sense.



The strategic relevance thus exists if indeed terrain alone was the issue. The more we peel the core off its trappings, paradoxically the more complex it becomes. The other way is to take the altruistic view and relate to the undo-ability of this entire grand scheme and instead invest in protection, preservation and sustenance of a common resource which Siachen is to both India and Pakistan. It feeds two rivers, Nubra and Shyok, of which Shyok then feeds into the Indus. The Indus water system remains eternally dependent on what happens to these glaciers and to their life over the coming centuries.



If under the weight of external defacement by troop presence and associated activity, the river sources dry, the entire civilisational system of the Indus valley will be disrupted. Dependent on water as the source of life and thus in its absence facing certain extinction hordes, nay civilisations, will migrate into adjoining regions causing chaos and disruption never experienced before. If that doesn’t endanger life, regional and global stability, what else will?



Siachen has gotten more warped in countless complexities with time. What may have just begun as a pre-emptive up-man-ship between the two competitive neighbours has now developed a life of its own, difficult to shed and difficult to untangle. The only strategic significance thus that needs to be played in the issue of Siachen is the tenuous civilisational future in South Asia. The loss of the 139 soldiers in the Gayari sector of Siachen and the 8000 others that have been lost mostly to elements cry for rectifying a serious strategic miscalculation. It must be righted forthwith. The short term geo-strategic interest may only prove to be some dastardly distraction. Avoid it!



The writer is a retired air-vice marshal of the Pakistan Air Force and served as its deputy chief of staff.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=103554&Cat=9

 

[notsuperstitious]

So the NLI is not Paksitani Army? Are they "non state actors"? Mr. Android in his post says that NLI is not the Army.
Are you also saying the same thing?

The non state actors are more successful at capturing indian land, 6*3 feet!

We lost some in an unknown place in Maharashtra in 2008.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Getting real on Siachen

I will say again, as I've said before: Siachen is all about the Glacier. Vast, Cold, Forlorn, Inhospitable and Inhuman as it is.

 

[mjnaushad]

Sir to transalate the goodwill in your post to reality all Pakistan has to do is accept reality that India controls Siachen now and authenticate the AGPL.

Once that is done, we can start demilitarization immediately.



Do you understand the meaning of democracy and the relevance here ?

Same question for you.

Please explain?

Democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Connect the dots.... In this case just try to understand the dot and the word KING.

 

[garibnawaz]

oooh the Richy rich Indians.....

Hate to post something which is not related to topic but for you I will make an exception.


Suspended (Pakistani) IPL players seek compensation

The four Pakistan players whose contracts have been "suspended" by the IPL have appealed to the President of Pakistan, Asif Ali Zardari, to compensate them for the loss in earnings brought about by the government's decision to not allow them to travel to India to take part.

Suspended IPL players seek compensation | Cricket News | Indian Premier League 2009 | ESPN Cricinfo

Morale of the Story - Indian money is bigger than Pakistani nationalism.

 

[Screambowl]

Don't worry, If India even tries to claim K2, there WILL BE SEVERE CONSEQUENCES...

i don't want to discuss any war scenario but, what happened in Kargil was everything you could do. Rapid US intervention was there due to advancing Indian army.