The Ramadan War: The Battle for Dignity

[500]

You know exactly what I mean

I really dont know what u mean. Since the beginning of Zionism in 1880, Arab population of Palestine grew over 12 times. Arabs in Israel live beter than in neighbour countries, Arabic is official language in Israel.

You are living on a land that someone else was living

I live in town called Holon, there was nothing but sand dune here.

Newspapers?!!

Ok, thanks.

3afwuan. Whats wrong with newspapers? Can you bring better source proving your claims? I would be happy to see.

 

[Canaan]

I really dont know what u mean. Since the beginning of Zionism in 1880, Arab population of Palestine grew over 12 times. Arabs in Israel live beter than in neighbour countries, Arabic is official language in Israel.

You are mixing things up really, how arabs live in israel or not can never justify any ethnic cleansing and occupation, it's just a bad excuse. You want to tell me that because the arab population including the so-called "israeli"-arabs grew 12 times, no ethnic cleansing happened. Let me put it this way. In the late 19th century, the arab population of Palestine was between 94-96% of the total population owning more than 98% of the land.The jewish population of Palestine was a mere 4-5%, of which most still held their citizenship of their home nations, russia, prussia etc.

In 2010 the picture is reversed. While the arab population grew 12 times the jewish/israeli population grew 350 times! due to immigration of jews and non-jews to "israel".
The palestinians control less than 60% of the 11% remaining of their own homeland (area a and b), and is de facto under occupation.
Holon was established in 1935, in Palestine which was under a british occupation/mandate due to the fall of the Ottoman empire, Israel didn't even exist then.

Put emotions and nationalism aside, do you true to your heart honestly think it is on a fair basis that Israel was created?

 

[500]

In the late 19th century, the arab population of Palestine was between 94-96% of the total population

In 1880 there were 400 thousands Arabs, today - 5 million.

owning more than 98% of the land.

Thats not true. First of all most of the lands were bellong to state. Secondly large portions of land were and still belong to churches (for example Israeli parliament is built on land bought from church). Thirdly most of the Arab lands were belong to rich landlords from Beiruit, Damascus, Cairo.

In 2010 the picture is reversed. While the arab population grew 12 times the jewish/israeli population grew 350 times! due to immigration of jews and non-jews to "israel".

240 times. Muslim population of UK also grew similary I guess. It did not happen at expence of local population.

The palestinians control less than 60% of the 11% remaining of their own homeland (area a and b), and is de facto under occupation.

Palestinians own lots of lands in Israel and areas A and B.

Holon was established in 1935, in Palestine which was under a british occupation/mandate due to the fall of the Ottoman empire, Israel didn't even exist then.

It was established on sand dune.

Put emotions and nationalism aside, do you true to your heart honestly think it is on a fair basis that Israel was created?

Not less fair than other states. You can also ask 1.5 milion of Israeli Arabs. The overwhelming majority of them will tell you that they want to be citizens of Israel and not Palestine.

 

[Canaan]

I

n 1880 there were 400 thousands Arabs, today - 5 million.

there were an estimated 411,000 of whom 4% were jews, most of them holding foreign passports.

Thats not true. First of all most of the lands were bellong to state. Secondly large portions of land were and still belong to churches (for example Israeli parliament is built on land bought from church). Thirdly most of the Arab lands were belong to rich landlords from Beiruit, Damascus, Cairo.

Wrong again and let me tell you why:
According to the British Mandates Survey of Palestine prior to the 1947 partition plan: The Jews before 1920 owned an estimated 650,000 dunums (1000 sq. meters) fast forward just as of 1945, the land ownership of jews, (including what was purchased from arabs) had grown to 1,588,365 dunums (1000 sq. meters) which is exactly 6% no more no less! meaning arabs still owned 94% of Palestine and the myth about Arabs selling most of the land to jews, DEBUNKED. You do know that there was an enforced death penalty for anyone who sold Palestinian land to the arriving jewish colonialists.

Palestine was not a british state, it was a mandate handed down by the league of nations and does not entitle land ownership, only control.

Palestine was an A Mandate

The A Mandates (applied to parts of the old Ottoman Empire) were 'certain communities' that had
...reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognised subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory.
– Article 22, The Covenant of the League of Nations (1924)
This reflects reality as almost every single palestinian family including mine, still hold the ownership documents of the land, which israel of course doesn't want to accept or recognize.

240 times. Muslim population of UK also grew similary I guess. It did not happen at expence of local population.

349 point something rounded up to 350, check your numbers again.
And of course it ended up being at the expense of the local population. Why else were 80% of the Palestinian population forced into exile and still after 62 years not allowed back home? in my world this is ethnic cleansing.
Muslims constitute 3.86% of the total population in the UK, they never intended to come colonize and take over the UK, what a strange comparison.

Palestinians own lots of lands in Israel and areas A and B.

I am still talking about occupied land, not what a few own.

It was established on sand dune.

True, but it was still established in 1935 before Israels creation, meaning in Palestine. I don't mind Holon, it was one of the few places not established on top of Palestinian cities or villages.

Not less fair than other states. You can also ask 1.5 milion of Israeli Arabs. The overwhelming majority of them will tell you that they want to be citizens of Israel and not Palestine.

Way less fair, how many other states can "pride" itself by being created out of ethnic cleansing and lies? not many.
I know a lot of these people you talk about, of course they don't want to live in Fatah's (corrupt) mini state in Ramallah and the West Bank.
I don't ignore the good sides of the modern Israeli society and its achievements, but still this doesn't justify occupation.

 

[500]

I
there were an estimated 411,000 of whom 4% were jews, most of them holding foreign passports.

There were 24,000 Jews, thats almost 6%.

had grown to 1,588,365 dunums (1000 sq. meters) which is exactly 6% no more no less! meaning arabs still owned 94% of Palestine

I repeat again, not Jewish land =! Arab land. Because most of the lands were belong to Ottoman Empire. Also lost of lands were belonged to churches and western countries. Also most of Arab lands were belong to foreign landlors and not to poor peasants.

349 point something rounded up to 350, check your numbers again

24 k ---> 5500 k

And of course it ended up being at the expense of the local population. Why else were 80% of the Palestinian population forced into exile and still after 62 years not allowed back home? in my world this is ethnic cleansing.

These are absurd numbers. If you want to know real ethnic cleansing I can show u:

In 1850 there were 6.6 mln Irish in Ireland and 0.35 mln Arabs in Palestine.

Today there are 4.5 mln Irish in Ireland and 5 mln Arabs in Palestine.

As you can see, since mid of 19th century Itish population in Ireland dropped 1.5 times while Arab population in Palestine grew 14 times.

Muslims constitute 3.86% of the total population in the UK

They grew hundreds times since 19th century.

I am still talking about occupied land, not what a few own.

You are confusing lkand oiwnership with sovereignty.

True, but it was still established in 1935 before Israels creation, meaning in Palestine.

Palestine is nothing but Hebrew name of this region. It is not a country.

Way less fair, how many other states can "pride" itself by being created out of ethnic cleansing and lies? not many.

As I said before, 100,000 mln people became refugees in 20th century alone. Among them 850 K Jews from Arab countries.

I know a lot of these people you talk about, of course they don't want to live in Fatah's (corrupt) mini state in Ramallah and the West Bank.

Normal state on 1967 borders with little changes.

I don't ignore the good sides of the modern Israeli society and its achievements, but still this doesn't justify occupation.

1.5 mln of Arabs in Israel dont mind to live in Israel.
1.5 mln of Arabs in Gaza live under rule of Hamas, there is no single Israeli there.
remaining 2 mln Arabs in West Bank live in wide authonomy. They can easily get a state once they sign peace.

So where is that "occupation"?

 

[Nishan]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/67101-solution-israeli-issue.html

 

[Unkowntruth]

The moment Israel was created on Arab land was an act of war. It wasn't your property to make a country out of. Nothing can excuse what you did no matter how much BS you speak.

 

[500]

The moment Israel was created on Arab land was an act of war. It wasn't your property to make a country out of. Nothing can excuse what you did no matter how much BS you speak.

Israel, like the Arab states, was formed on lands of former Ottoman Empire.

 

[Nishan]

Israel, like the Arab states, was formed on lands of former Ottoman Empire.

and the Ottoman Empire was formed on lands of former states . . etc

 

[su-47]

and the Ottoman Empire was formed on lands of former states . . etc

If we think like that, USA is illegal. It was built on lands seized from Native Americans. And pretty much all countries in North and South America are illegal.

Fact is Israel is here to stay. How can there be peace in the middle east if you blatantly refuse to accept that?

Look at what happened with Egypt. Egypt initially doesn't accept Israel, and there are wars. Thousands die for no reason. Egypt accepts Israel, and voila! Peace! at the end of the day, what was gained from the hostility? just death and destruction.

 

[Nishan]

If we think like that, USA is illegal. It was built on lands seized from Native Americans. And pretty much all countries in North and South America are illegal.

Fact is Israel is here to stay. How can there be peace in the middle east if you blatantly refuse to accept that?

Look at what happened with Egypt. Egypt initially doesn't accept Israel, and there are wars. Thousands die for no reason. Egypt accepts Israel, and voila! Peace! at the end of the day, what was gained from the hostility? just death and destruction.

first: Extermination of indigenous peoples and the occupation of its territory, Just like the Europeans do in the New World, It is immoral and inhumane.

second: There is no similarity between Palestine and the New World, Because Palestine is the land of civilizations and land of the three monotheistic religions.

third: Palestine Were not in one day Depopulated, And say that Jews have set up their own state In Uninhabited land Is stupid and foolish

forth: you Wants the Arabs to accept the occupation of their land, Do you accept to cut part of Botswana or India to create a state for Jews on it ?

sixth: When the Arabs regain their occupied land, and When the Jews return to their places of origin In Europe, America and North Africa , Then wars will stop and there will be peace in region

 

[Menes]

Can you bring better source proving your claims?

I don't have to provide any sources, since your own Israeli historians and politicians blame PM Meir for the outbreak of the war, because of her rejection of Sadat's initiatives, that's a common knowledge.

You're doing your best to derail my thread BTW.

 

[Nishan]

 

[Menes]

If we think like that, USA is illegal. It was built on lands seized from Native Americans. And pretty much all countries in North and South America are illegal.

US is illegal, but Arabs are not red Indians.

Look at what happened with Egypt. Egypt initially doesn't accept Israel, and there are wars. Thousands die for no reason. Egypt accepts Israel, and voila! Peace! at the end of the day, what was gained from the hostility? just death and destruction.

According to modern Israeli historians, Arabs agreed to sign peace treaty with Israel in 1949, but Zionists wanted to annex more Arab lands. Thousands of Israelis died for Sinai, but now it's ours after all.

"At Lausanne, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and the Palestinians were trying to save by negotiations what they had lost in the war; a Palestinian state alongside Israel. Israel, however preferred tenuous armistice agreements to a definite peace that would involve territorial concessions and the repatriation of even a token number of refugees. The refusal to recognize the Palestinians’ right to self-determination and statehood proved over the years to be the main source of the turbulence, violence, and bloodshed that came to pass." -The Birth Of Israel by Simha Flapan

 

[Menes]

Egyptian Zyl truck with 130mm rocket tubes, camouflaged in sand and green.

One of the historic breaches hosed in the sand ramparts of the eastern bank of Suez Canal.

Egyptian soldiers raise their own flag over a captured Israeli strongpoint in the Bar-Lev line, and hurl the Israeli flag away.