The only way to tackle terrorism in Pakistan is to reform or close down Madrasas

[Secur]

What about the IBA graduate terrorists holding MBA degrees? Ban MBA as well

You can add the electrical engineer Azhar Ishrat from SSUET and Hafiz Nasir (no surprises there) acquiring MA in Islamic studies from KU. Not if they were scurrying around with Mullahs and terrorists organizations, translating Jihadi literature into English and using the university-acquired skills for the progress of extremist ideology, not something the secular education wants you to do. Add to that, there being no precedence of higher education institutions being even supportive of this madness let alone participate in it, the argument falls flat. The seminaries have a long past associated with radicalization and extremism, there is a very high number of them which have been accused and found involved in anti state/anti social activities. If not, it creates an atmosphere of narrow mindedness, blind following and intolerance of difference of opinion resulting in it. Its the most logical answer to questions such as. Where do the foot soldiers for all these terrorists/extremist organization come from? What is the origin of all of these abundant Mullah/Qari/Mufti/Hafiz/Moulvi getting arrested or killed in clashes with the security forces? Sure, there are highly educated misguided people in the ranks of terrorists, however they are very few in number and found in almost all cases found to have gotten involved with a certain religious personality.

Its an entire education system gone wrong, these Madarsas, churning out graduates which aren't equipped to deal with any modern challenge or contribute to the society and by large the country in any positive way having no marketable worldly skills. Just how many people you need for leading prayers or offering funerals or performing other rituals? Heavy reforms are needed to curtail the radicalization which develops as a result of the atmosphere found in present day Madarsas (don't start with those of the past which taught extensive secular education too).

Many madrassah degrees are considered equivalent to bachelors/Masters degrees, hence they are also eligible for other jobs as well.

For instance? What besides limited religious jobs is religious education good for?

How conveniently blaming my religion for the governments failings, and corruption.

The extremist version of your religion is being blamed for causing death of 60k Pakistanis and for turning a great many into the same killers/murderers to continue the ordeal of terrorism. A distinction that doesn't lie with the extremist secularist, they aren't killing for difference of opinion and interpretation and not even in the name of God (which in itself is a great irony and grave sin). All that you associate with the opposite counterparts of religious extremists (SOBs as they may be), doesn't include widespread terror-brainwashing and senseless murders around the country. Think about it.

Pakistan should change the name *Madrassah* to something more acceptable to burger bachas growing up-

Would it turn them into anything better than the promoters of radicalization and extremist, than they are today? If yes, feel free. If no, consider reforms and necessary treatment with force. There is a problem at hand, supposing its not here or blaming others for it, isn't going to make it better or magically make it disappear.

Islam was the foremost in sciences, developments

What is so religious about science so to term it Islamic? Considering that the Westerners have been in charge of it for the past three to four hundred years and there's very little that can be attributed to Muslim scientists. Science is no one's mistress, our own brothers open minded and tolerant as were, utilized the knowledge of those before them. Nothing popped out of the sky suddenly or magically appear, as the local Mullahs would have you believe. Since then, Muslims became more involved in petty questions, non-issues, labeling worldly things as haram, each others as infidels and to sum it up narrow minded, its not exactly a result of distance from religion as they want you to believe. Science requires an open mind and the courage to ask questions seemingly forbidden by religion, not tauba astaghfar every time someone says something which is out of ordinary or not traditional.

 

[Psychic]

What besides limited religious jobs is religious education good for?

You have no problem with pundits, Priests and Rabbis but you have problem with Moulvis. Let me ask you a simple question. Which of our government was moulvi or religious? All of your secular political parties f*cked Pakistan up and you are too quick to blame every evil on Moulvis.
Let me ask you another question. What is the scope of the subject Gender studies besides limited jobs in some NGO's? So does that mean that we should ban Gender studies as a subject?

an entire education system gone wrong, these Madarsas, churning out graduates which aren't equipped to deal with any modern challenge or contribute to the society and by large the country in any positive way having no marketable worldly skills. Just how many people you need for leading prayers or offering funerals or performing other rituals? Heavy reforms are needed to curtail the radicalization which develops as a result of the atmosphere found in present day Madarsas (don't start with those of the past which taught extensive secular education too).

Yeah and USA and Europe has banned priests and Israel has banned Rabbis. Yes right, you do not see religion important because you are an atheist but to many religion is important and there should be qualified people providing religious services.

Your Tui Sari ka secular or semi secular system is unable to provide free food, clothing and education to poor children of Pakistan( Who are untouchables for your kind anyways) that is why they join madrassahs.
And for your f*cked up information there are many staunch opponents of TTP like Barelvis who also run madrassahs and have always remained non violent.

 

[Secur]

You have no problem with pundits, Priests and Rabbis but you have problem with Moulvis. Let me ask you a simple question. Which of our government was moulvi or religious? All of your secular political parties f*cked Pakistan up and you are too quick to blame every evil on Moulvis.
Let me ask you another question. What is the scope of the subject Gender studies besides limited jobs in some NGO's? So does that mean that we should ban Gender studies as a subject?

Yeah and USA and Europe has banned priests and Israel has banned Rabbis. Yes right, you do not see religion important because you are an atheist but to many religion is important and there should be qualified people providing religious services.

Your Tui Sari ka secular or semi secular system is unable to provide free food, clothing and education to poor children of Pakistan( Who are untouchables for your kind anyways) that is why they join madrassahs.
And for your f*cked up information there are many staunch opponents of TTP like Barelvis who also run madrassahs and have always remained non violent.

Of course I don't have a problem with them! And we all know the reason, right? They aren't the one waging a war against my people! They aren't the ones asking the people to blow up, kill/maim the opposition, declaring things forbidden left right and center, bordering on insanity and acting in strict defiance of science, modern world and technology. How many of those whom you named have been involved in pushing sectarianism, radicalization and extremism to their people (en masse)? How many of those fighting with/getting killed by security forces in this country have a Rabbi, Father, Reverend, Pundits, Bishop, Nuns, Guru, Sant, Maharshi title? That is a very simple reason, I am surprised you even asked the question. Please, don't think of me like your religious personalities who are obsessively concerned with the problems of the world over when their own country is burning.

Nope, only post 1980 that is during and past past the era of the great commander of the faithful Zia-UL-Haq and his associated brand of barbarism and intolerance. Add the brief stunt of Bhutto with the Islamist for support for his adventure in Afghanistan too.The rest remains with secular politicians. However, even they haven't caused as much damage as the Mullahs responsible for murder of 60k Pakistanis (incl the children of Army public school) and polluting the minds of the young and vulnerable with their insane version of religion.

Wrong again, people with a degree in gender studies are highly valued in policy making, other Govt jobs, health care facilities, research groups, teaching, counseling, legal aids e.t.c besides the NGO jobs to name a few! Perhaps you will now answer my question, instead of asking one of your own as to the benefit of churning out Madarsa graduates a dime a dozen without any further worldly education and thus no marketable skills for the world! (almost all). You cant exactly live your whole life on chanda, kherat, zakat and other charity. Easy jobs at the terrorists and extremist organizations mostly await you then!

Its not, there's no denial, however the problem of producing more children than one can raise needs to be rectified. Get a latex if you cant feed or teach the ever growing number of kids who are then sent to Madarsas for food, education and every single thing. Your Mullahs have had the direct or indirect control of the country since the eighties, what have you done to correct the deficiencies of the secular system? Injected people with sectarianism and radicalization and hoped for cure, right? Untouchables? And I am not an atheist, clearly you need to read the definition of secular once again, its not godless for one.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Clossing Madrassas will only solve one part of a problem. Most of the terrorist nowadays are graduates.

I have seen one Islamic Scholar video here in pdf advocating childrens to be initiated into Quran teaching or religious training only after the age of 8 or 10. This would have ensured the kids have enough openess in mind to accept both science and religion. Initiating kids as early as 3 into religious training is nothing but brainwashing.

 

[S.U.R.B.]

Madrassa >Free education> comes with the unethical in closet Child labour .
(Guess we already know that nothing comes free in this world)

Though i'm not discussing the level of education these Unregistered Madrissa's provide, which is mostly not even at par to the orthodox curriculum of the registered ones.

 

[banvanaxl]

Let me ask you another questions, because I don't believe the OP's point of view is correct.

How does a pundit survive ? what does he live on ?

now, substitute, Pundit, with molvi, or any other religious guy.

This is the root cause of the problem.

society requires social skills & means to make ends. that includes being part of economic activity.
A man who has pledged himself is devoid of such capabilities. Thus the exploitation starts.

The sanest answer in the whole damned thread. Man made religion is the root cause of this crap around us.

No religion would equal no crusades, no holocaust, no Islamophobia or Jew persecution, no horrendous casteist divide within the Hindu ranks.

Religions all around the world should be gradually rendered obsolete and demolished as and entity, an superseded with moral values of equality, fostering of a brotherhood spirit and basic human decency.

You can add the electrical engineer Azhar Ishrat from SSUET and Hafiz Nasir (no surprises there) acquiring MA in Islamic studies from KU. Not if they were scurrying around with Mullahs and terrorists organizations, translating Jihadi literature into English and using the university-acquired skills for the progress of extremist ideology, not something the secular education wants you to do. Add to that, there being no precedence of higher education institutions being even supportive of this madness let alone participate in it, the argument falls flat. The seminaries have a long past associated with radicalization and extremism, there is a very high number of them which have been accused and found involved in anti state/anti social activities. If not, it creates an atmosphere of narrow mindedness, blind following and intolerance of difference of opinion resulting in it. Its the most logical answer to questions such as. Where do the foot soldiers for all these terrorists/extremist organization come from? What is the origin of all of these abundant Mullah/Qari/Mufti/Hafiz/Moulvi getting arrested or killed in clashes with the security forces? Sure, there are highly educated misguided people in the ranks of terrorists, however they are very few in number and found in almost all cases found to have gotten involved with a certain religious personality.

Its an entire education system gone wrong, these Madarsas, churning out graduates which aren't equipped to deal with any modern challenge or contribute to the society and by large the country in any positive way having no marketable worldly skills. Just how many people you need for leading prayers or offering funerals or performing other rituals? Heavy reforms are needed to curtail the radicalization which develops as a result of the atmosphere found in present day Madarsas (don't start with those of the past which taught extensive secular education too).
.

Mate why don't chaps like you contest elections in your country and everywhere else. The world would be a much better and a saner place.

I bet our "Alien" overlords get their daily kicks by looking at the ridiculous mess we have created with racism, religious divides, regionalism and what not, and are eagerly waiting for us to wipe each other off so that they can come and establish the ideal Utopian society.

 

[Secur]

Madrassa >Free education> comes with the unethical in closet Child labour .
(Guess we already know that nothing comes free in this world)

Though i'm not discussing the level of education these Unregistered Madrissa's provide, which is mostly not even at par to the orthodox curriculum of the registered ones.

No free lunch in the world, the Mullahs get enormous funding from the gullible masses under the guise of religion. That is why, every mosque in the city comes with Madarsas. Makes some of us wonder as to why so many parents can't afford their children proper education and just how many children are there in this country requiring education in Madaris in such astronomical numbers seeing how they are open at every nook and corner.

Mate why don't chaps like you contest elections in your country and everywhere else. The world would be a much better and a saner place.

I bet our "Alien" overlords get their daily kicks by looking at the ridiculous mess we have created with racism, religious divides, regionalism and what not, are are eagerly waiting for us to wipe each other off so that they can come and establish the ideal Utopian society.

I wish to remain alive for a long time to come, no death wish.

 

[Salik]

Well you don't see violent clashes in Madrassas , But you may find different student wings of political organization harassing and promoting violent culture in Universities. targeted killings of professors and students are common, And these same students are operating the militants wing of Terror groups and political organizations. A Madarassa kid lacks much of communication qualities but a university student is well aware of how to manipulate or enhance the brain of others.

Madrasa kids have higher level of obedience so that is misused by their heads. If these students are sync with modern education and skills they can be best work force a country can have.

 

[S.U.R.B.]

No free lunch in the world, the Mullahs get enormous funding from the gullible masses under the guise of religion. That is why, every mosque in the city comes with Madarsas. Makes some of us wonder as to why so many parents can't afford their children proper education and just how many children are there in this country requiring education in Madaris in such astronomical numbers seeing how they are open at every nook and corner.

Exactly my point. (Or should i say Axactly?)

Government or city laws doesn't apply on them.They can easily manage to buy a house and then start a Madrissa in any of the Residential areas.There is a reason for dividing the zones into commercial and non-commercial/residential areas.
(And in the above mentioned statement you can cite the private school mafia as well.... but that's off topic)

 

[kṣamā]

How does a pundit survive ? what does he live on ?

SIr, Firstly there is not a single word you wrote that I would Challenge. This reply is just to have a civil conversation. As for the query, I dunno about all Pundits, I know a few of them. The best example I can give is one of my mentor. He is a scientific officer (used to be a research scholar) when he is not organizing religious ceremonies and weddings. I once asked if both of the things are at conflict. His reply was refreshing. He said that science is progressive only when we ask "Wh" questions. But religion is where you submit to the almighty without pondering about facts and figures. This is how learned "God Man" can teach a common Joe, who is humbled by the knowledge. The "God Man" can teach the commoners the very distilled form of the knowledge as "God's Words". This is not just true for a particular religion. I am no scholar of Islam, Christianity, Sikhism, Buddhism but I am quite sure that there are many mannerisms taught in them have very good logical/scientific reason associated to it.

So my point here is, why close the Madarsa?? All we do is have a religiously taught learned person, who is also has a good hold over classical science, in charge of the madarsa . Then he can train the pupils according to their intellectual trend. And they can slip nuggets of modern science in between their religious discussions. What harm could it do ??

Religions all around the world should be gradually rendered obsolete and demolished as and entity, an superseded with moral values of equality, fostering of a brotherhood spirit and basic human decency.

<Only to be read by Bengalis> Ami jantam almost shob Bangali r antigonastic nahole athest

@Secur : we need a billion of you on both side of the border to keep SA from drowning in a sea of religious madness.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

You are only giving proof of your own attitudes.

People like you are testament to why hate is spreading.

basing an opinion on Pakistan due to decade long war due to Invasion of Afghanistan and its fall out on Pakistan.

 

[banvanaxl]

<Only to be read by Bengalis> Ami jantam almost shob Bangali r antigonastic nahole athest

<Again if I may, only to be read by Bengalis >
Bhai duniyar joto jhonjhat, jhamela, resha reshi, juddho tar ardheker beshi bhaag, religion related. IMHO, amra jodi, religion cherey ektu beshi logical thinking er pokhopatita kortam, the world would indeed be a much better place.

Btw ami atheist noi, agnostic

 

[haviZsultan]

I don't think closing them is the solution. Training their owners and teachers in government run institutes and strictly controlling what they teach can be the solution. They should not be allowed to teach hatred against any sect,ethnic group or religion.

I think we need to incorporate mullahs who teach in madrassas into the national fabric and force them to teach subjects other than religion too like science, geography and history.

 

[Sinnerman108]

SIr, Firstly there is not a single word you wrote that I would Challenge. This reply is just to have a civil conversation. As for the query, I dunno about all Pundits, I know a few of them. The best example I can give is one of my mentor. He is a scientific officer (used to be a research scholar) when he is not organizing religious ceremonies and weddings. I once asked if both of the things are at conflict. His reply was refreshing. He said that science is progressive only when we ask "Wh" questions. But religion is where you submit to the almighty without pondering about facts and figures. This is how learned "God Man" can teach a common Joe, who is humbled by the knowledge. The "God Man" can teach the commoners the very distilled form of the knowledge as "God's Words". This is not just true for a particular religion. I am no scholar of Islam, Christianity, Sikhism, Buddhism but I am quite sure that there are many mannerisms taught in them have very good logical/scientific reason associated to it.

So my point here is, why close the Madarsa?? All we do is have a religiously taught learned person, who is also has a good hold over classical science, in charge of the madarsa . Then he can train the pupils according to their intellectual trend. And they can slip nuggets of modern science in between their religious discussions. What harm could it do ??

<Only to be read by Bengalis> Ami jantam almost shob Bangali r antigonastic nahole athest

@Secur : we need a billion of you on both side of the border to keep SA from drowning in a sea of religious madness.

I can agree to what you are saying and you more or less highlight the point I am trying to make.

Madarassas are not the root cause; they are symptoms
the root cause is our attitude towards religion and our priorities.
Which are towards a fruitful and powerful worldly life.
Good education, Good job, good money, and luxury.

Religion does not directly contribute to any of the above goals.
Thus we outsource this useless but culturally apt responsibility to others; who have no skills to survive otherwise in this world.
their only skill is religion, which they use to gain worldly benefits.

 

[Psychic]

Of course I don't have a problem with them! And we all know the reason, right? They aren't the one waging a war against my people! They aren't the ones asking the people to blow up, kill/maim the opposition, declaring things forbidden left right and center, bordering on insanity and acting in strict defiance of science, modern world and technology. How many of those whom you named have been involved in pushing sectarianism, radicalization and extremism to their people (en masse)? How many of those fighting with/getting killed by security forces in this country have a Rabbi, Father, Reverend, Pundits, Bishop, Nuns, Guru, Sant, Maharshi title? That is a very simple reason, I am surprised you even asked the question. Please, don't think of me like your religious personalities who are obsessively concerned with the problems of the world over when their own country is burning.

Nope, only post 1980 that is during and past past the era of the great commander of the faithful Zia-UL-Haq and his associated brand of barbarism and intolerance. Add the brief stunt of Bhutto with the Islamist for support for his adventure in Afghanistan too.The rest remains with secular politicians. However, even they haven't caused as much damage as the Mullahs responsible for murder of 60k Pakistanis (incl the children of Army public school) and polluting the minds of the young and vulnerable with their insane version of religion.

Wrong again, people with a degree in gender studies are highly valued in policy making, other Govt jobs, health care facilities, research groups, teaching, counseling, legal aids e.t.c besides the NGO jobs to name a few! Perhaps you will now answer my question, instead of asking one of your own as to the benefit of churning out Madarsa graduates a dime a dozen without any further worldly education and thus no marketable skills for the world! (almost all). You cant exactly live your whole life on chanda, kherat, zakat and other charity. Easy jobs at the terrorists and extremist organizations mostly await you then!

Its not, there's no denial, however the problem of producing more children than one can raise needs to be rectified. Get a latex if you cant feed or teach the ever growing number of kids who are then sent to Madarsas for food, education and every single thing. Your Mullahs have had the direct or indirect control of the country since the eighties, what have you done to correct the deficiencies of the secular system? Injected people with sectarianism and radicalization and hoped for cure, right? Untouchables? And I am not an atheist, clearly you need to read the definition of secular once again, its not godless for one.

Your problem is that you are painting all molvis with the same brush. Every molvi is not Abdul Aziz. We have many Sarfraz Naeemis and Hasan Jans among our molvis as well. They are the best tools to counter the terrorists, majority Pakistanis are Barelvis and they run many madrassahs as well. They are non violent and anti TTP but many people paint them with the same brush they use to paint madrassahs of Abdul Aziz. Religious degrees have their value and I will finish that with just one example that our Islamiat techer in fsc was a madrassah student alongside MA in Islamiat. One does O levels what skill it gives? means one should become a motor mechanic to get some skills? The answer is that study further. No one stops you. A large number of hafiz e Quran people are doctors, engineers and civil servents. LT. Gen Mushtaq Baig shaheed was also a hafiz and he had done hifz from a madrassah. So your claim that madrassahs produce mindless, unskilled zombies has been head shotted. Plus just take a moment to think that what will happen if your brillant plan of banning madrassahs is enforced. Think about after effects and think about majority non violent barelvis who may become violent. Keeping an eye on madrassahs is the solution, banning madrassahs is not. I am not going to get into Zia and company debate because Zia is the bogeyman to blame faliures of his successors as well. He did what the situation demanded at that time. Perhaps he was short sighted. As for my religious personalities, I do not follow any one and I pray once a week, I am a bad Muslim, I bash molvis as well regardless of their sect.