The Nefertiri conflict between germany and egypt

[ResurgentIran]

it is not up to you to say this is ours and we can do with it what we want she was Egyptian the same blood runs in modern Egyptian people and if you have any problem with that i want to see you prove it our blood is more pure than you a white european should not talk about pure blood look at the street and see people from all over the world millions marrying and having kids in a fast rate i think the people who should be kept in museums are white euros they are a rare and endangered people

hahaha well said Mahmoud!

 

[atatwolf]

Germany is not obliged to give it back. At least those artifacts that the Ottomans gave away as gifts. About the Nefertete bust. That is a different story. Germans took that one out of the country with trickery. That being said it is up to Germany if they want to give it back or not.Today's Egyptians are not related to Ancient Egyptians. Today's population of Egypt are invader Arabs so Germans have as much right to those artifacts. The invader Arabs also are not native to Egypt and are in no position to make demands. @MarkusS your country should keep it

 

[RFS_Br]

Today's Egyptians are not related to Ancient Egyptians. Today's population of Egypt are invader Arabs

This is pretty wrong. Population movements within the Middle East following the Islamic conquests was minimal; there were not nearly enough people in the Arabic peninsula to populate the entire Middle East, and that fact, by the way, is still true today. The Arabic peninsula remains of the the most sparsely populated regions in the world. The Islamic religion and the Arabic language spread by means of cultural diffusion, not population replacement, so that today's Middle Eastern peoples retain a genetic connection with the ancient nations that inhabited their countries, and are more or less easily distinguishable from peoples of the Arabian peninsula, who are the true Arabs. I've not seen any genetic studies of the Egyptians, but if I had to guess, I'd say the Muslims are pretty similar to the Copts, who brag of being the true descendants of the ancient Egyptians, just like studies have already shown Muslims in Lebanon are more similar to their Christian countrymen than to the Arabian peoples. This fact, if generalized to the whole Middle East, can only mean one thing: that the "invader Arabs" didn't change the population landscape in the Middle East very much, and managed to spread their language and religion without migrating in very large numbers to the lands they conquered.

 

[al-Hasani]

This is pretty wrong. Population movements within the Middle East following the Islamic conquests was minimal; the Islamic religion and the Arabic language spread by means of cultural diffusion, not population replacement, so that today's Middle Eastern peoples retain a genetic connection with the ancient nations that inhabited their countries, and are more or less easily distinguishable from peoples of the Arabian peninsula, who are the true Arabs. I've not seen any genetic studies of the Egyptian population, but if I had to guess, I'd say the Muslims are pretty similar to the Copts, who brag of being the true descendants of the ancient Egyptians, just like studies have already shown Muslims in Lebanon are more similar to their Christians countrymen than to the Arabian peoples, which can only mean one thing: that the "invader Arabs" didn't change the population landscape in the Middle East very much.

Actually this is not entirely the truth. There were plenty of ancient population movements, medieval movements and movements in more recent times. Also there were dozens of bloody wars that changed the demographics of the region to a great extent.
This does not really matter either as the entire Arab world was inhabited by related Semitic peoples who mixed together just like modern-day Arabs have been mixing with each other. It was actually a coincidence that Arabic became the Semitic lingua franca and not another of the many Semitic languages that were previously spoken across what is now the Arab world. It's similar to what happened with Latin and other world languages.

Basically all ME Arabs cluster with each other and so do all ME peoples to a great extent. Nothing strange about it as we are talking about neighbors. Similarly Southern Europeans cluster with each other, South Asians etc.

You would hardly tell a Hijazi and Egyptian apart. Or a Libyan and Egyptian. Or a Moroccan and Algerian etc. Or a Saudi Arabian and Jordanian etc.

Anyway all those ancient artifacts will return to most Arab countries. This is already an ongoing process. The Chinese are doing the same. Buying back their heritage.

 

[atatwolf]

Actually this is not entirely the truth. There were plenty of ancient population movement, medieval movements and movements in more recent times. Also there were dozens of bloody wars that changed the population components of the region.
This does not really matter either as the entire Arab world was inhabited by related Semitic peoples. It was actually a coincidence that Arabic became the Semitic lingua franca and not another of the many Semitic languages that were previously spoken across what is now the Arab world. It's similar to what happened with Latin and other world languages.

Basically all ME Arabs cluster with each other and so do all ME peoples to a great extent. Nothing strange about it as we are talking about neighbors. Similarly Southern Europeans cluster with each other, South Asians etc.

You would hardly tell a Hijazi and Egyptian apart. Or a Libyan and Egyptian. Or a Moroccan and Algerian etc. Or a Saudi Arabian and Jordanian etc.

Ancient Egyptians and today's Arabs share only some blood through invasion and assimilation. "Semitic"connection is of course bull. That is like saying Israeli are Arabs since they are semitic too. It is total non-argument imho. Just show me one study which links Ancient Egyptian language to modern day Arabic or Ancient Egyptian culture to modern day desert culture of Arabs. There is none.

 

[al-Hasani]

Ancient Egyptians and today's Arabs share only some blood through invasion and assimilation. "Semitic"connection is of course bull. That is like saying Israeli are Arabs since they are semitic too. It is total non-argument imho. Just show me one study which links Ancient Egyptian language to modern day Arabic or Ancient Egyptian culture to modern day desert culture of Arabs. There is none.

By that logic there is nothing called European, Turkic etc. You have already proven to be clueless about this field as you have no knowledge about the history of the Arab world, their native civilizations (which were all more or less Semitic civilizations) or genetics.

Eh, most of the languages spoken across the Arab world in ancient times (millenniums ago) were various related Semitic languages or languages part of the Afro-Asiatic languages (oldest linguistic family). Languages and ancestry are two different things. Many Somalis speak Arabic (it's a official language) yet most Somalians are not Arabs at all. They are Somali people. Cushitic people.

Yes, ancient Hebrews and the real Jews were related to Arabs and other Semites and so is Arabic and Hebrew as languages. That Jews of today come from a very mixed background and many of the current day Jews are converts or only partially Jew. This is evident as there are Ethiopian Jews (Blacks), Arab Jews, Eastern European Jews, Indian Jews etc.

Also there is nothing called "pure Arab" as Arabic was not even the lingua franca of the Peninsula just 3000 years ago. Other ancient Semitic languages were spoken. There are many theories but it is pretty certain that it was either in the Arabian Peninsula, nearby Levant or Mesopotamia.

To this day in Yemen and Oman you have various peoples who speak various Southern Semitic languages. Their mother tongue is not Arabic in other words.

This has nothing to do with the topic though. Present day Egyptians are obviously related to ancient Egyptians and other Semites so they can claim that history more than any other people.

 

[atatwolf]

By that logic there is nothing called European, Turkic etc. You have already proven to be clueless about this field as you have no knowledge about the history of the Arab world, their native civilizations (which were all more or less Semitic civilizations) or genetics.

Eh, most of the languages spoken across the Arab world in ancient times (millenniums ago) were various related Semitic languages or languages part of the Afro-Asiatic languages (oldest linguistic family). Languages and ancestry are two different things. Many Somalis speak Arabic (it's a official language) yet most Somalians are not Arabs at all. They are Somali people. Cushitic people.

Yes, ancient Hebrews and the real Jews were related to Arabs and so is Arabic and Hebrew. That Jews of today come from a very mixed background and many of the current day Jews are converts or only partially Jew. This is evident as there are Ethiopian Jews (Blacks), Arab Jews, Eastern European Jews, Indian Jews etc.

There is something called Turkic because there is continuation of peoples. We can trace our origins to the beginning of times. The Arabic people can't trace their roots to Babylonians or other Ancient people simply because there is none. There are thousands of years of gab between "Arabs" we know and those wonderful ancient peoples. If there was continuation we would easily see it in their language and culture. There is a reason why Ancient culture of mesopotamia is different to modern day Arabs. Again, there is a huge time gab between them. Accidental flow of genetics doesn't make them related to you. You need continuation of history. You need clear connection in time periods. Otherwise it is just like the Kurds of today who say they are Medes, Babylonians, or what not when there is no time period connection. History is not a super market store where you can pick what you like. I mean if you are related to Babylonians for example and your people come on the scene thousand of years later. Where the phuk where you in the meantime?

 

[al-Hasani]

There is something called Turkic because there is continuation of peoples. We can trace our origins to the beginning of times. The Arabic people can't trace their roots to Babylonians or other Ancient people simply because there is none. There are thousands of years of gab between "Arabs" we know and those wonderful ancient peoples. If there was continuation we would easily see it in their language and culture. There is a reason why Ancient culture of mesopotamia is different to modern day Arabs. Again, there is a huge time gab between them. Accidental flow of genetics doesn't make them related to you. You need continuation of history. You need clear connection in time periods. Otherwise it is just like the Kurds of today who say they are Medes, Babylonians, or what not when there is no time period connection. History is not a super market store where you can pick what you like. I mean if you are related to Babylonians for example and your people come on the scene thousand of years later. Where the phuk where you in the meantime?

Are you sure that you do not have a Ph.D. degree in history?

 

[Mahmoud_EGY]

Ancient Egyptians and today's Arabs share only some blood through invasion and assimilation. "Semitic"connection is of course bull. That is like saying Israeli are Arabs since they are semitic too. It is total non-argument imho. Just show me one study which links Ancient Egyptian language to modern day Arabic or Ancient Egyptian culture to modern day desert culture of Arabs. There is none.

are you saying that ancient Egyptians are not related to today Egyptians

 

[al-Hasani]

are you saying that ancient Egyptians are not related to today Egyptians

He does not know what he is blabbering about. Just a angry anti-Arab/Semite kid. See post 66 bro.

 

[KingMamba]

Germany is not obliged to give it back. At least those artifacts that the Ottomans gave away as gifts. About the Nefertete bust. That is a different story. Germans took that one out of the country with trickery. That being said it is up to Germany if they want to give it back or not.Today's Egyptians are not related to Ancient Egyptians. Today's population of Egypt are invader Arabs so Germans have as much right to those artifacts. The invader Arabs also are not native to Egypt and are in no position to make demands. @MarkusS your country should keep it

Lol no offense but Turks from Turkey are not exactly in a position to call Egyptians invaders of Egypt.

 

[Mahmoud_EGY]

Can you imagine Nefertire speaking Arabic?


The point is CONTINUATION in history. We Turks can trace our ancestors coming from Central Asia to Turkey and taking foreign wifes in conquered lands. For example we are not claiming Hittites as Turks simply because there is thousand of years of a gap between Hittites and Turks. Al-Hasani does claim wonderful civiliations as their own but there is no connection in time period and connection in genetics, language and culture are also dubious. I'm looking from historical factual level, while he looks it from a pan-Arabic level and calls everybody a troll who doesn't agree with him.

can you prove this nonsense ? i dare you to bring anything to prove that majority of the people of Egypt are not related to ancient Egyptians

 

[atatwolf]

can you prove this nonsense ? i dare you to bring anything to prove that majority of the people of Egypt are not related to ancient Egyptians

You are making a positive statement so the burden of proof is on you. I can't prove something that is not the case. I mean since the times of the Mamluks, Egypt was ruled by Turkic peoples, Turkic peoples picked the best women and ruled the lands of Egypt for centuries, will take give us the right to claim Ancient Egyptian culture? No, Turkic peoples were invaders just like the Arabic invaders were.

 

[Mahmoud_EGY]

You are making a positive statement so the burden of proof is on you. I can't prove something that is not the case. I mean since the times of the Mamluks, Egypt was ruled by Turkic peoples, Turkic peoples picked the best women and ruled the lands of Egypt for centuries, will take give us the right to claim Ancient Egyptian culture? No, Turkic peoples were invaders just like the Arabic invaders were.

then also in the time of muhamed ali pasha our army controlled much of modern day turkey killed alot of your ...... soldiers humiliated your army and you got to keep your freedom only by help from europe then i can claim your civilization if you have one you have none no history just some barabrians invading countries

 

[atatwolf]

then also in the time of muhamed ali pasha our army controlled much of modern day turkey killed alot of your ...... soldiers humiliated your army and you got to keep your freedom only by help from europe then i can claim your civilization if you have one you have no history just some barabrians invading countries

Muhammad Ali Pasha was a Turk who revolted against the Ottomans. Now Muhammad Ali Pasha is Egyptian? He only spoke Albanian and Turkish. He didn't even speak Egyptian Arabic

Also we might be invaders and barbaric although our technology was superior compared to the west until 18th century, you guys are barbaric and uncivilized. Don't throw stones when you are living in a glass house. Since the times of the Mamluks, we ruled Egypt without any aid. Today Egypt gets billions of dollars of aid from the US and you still can't get things straight.

We tried to put things into order in Egypt and unfortunately you destroyed your country with your own hands. It is sad but the truth.