The Myth of 1965 Victory - Indian View

[SQ8]

@Santro


Dear Sir,

Fair enough, each in its place. Neither the rapes of 47-48, which T-Faz has been hotly contesting, nor the rapes or murders or ethnic cleansing of 71 which you have dismissed so elegantly are anything to do with 65.

That works for me.

Would you believe:

1. Air Marshal Nur Khan; his video is already available;
2. Air Marshal Asghar Khan; his interview appeared in the Pakistani media within the last 12 months;
3. Major A. H. Amin, PAVO Cavalry, whose account of the war is the best from either side; his writings are very widely available, or I can present you links in plenty;
4. Brigadier Z. A. Khan, who came from a family where his generation contributed not one, not two, but nearly a dozen military officers of worth; his account, by the way, might guide you to a better understanding whenever you want to return to 'prettifying' the account of 71, if ever you do.

I have been holding off with great difficulty and increasing anger in the face of very provocative remarks made by T-Faz, but if you wish, can flood you with exhaustive detail of the 65 conflict putting the picture very clear. Exclusively from Pakistani sources.

Please stop denying what your best and your brightest have put on record.

Sincerely,

'Joe Shearer'

@T-Faz

Dear Sir,

Have some shame, and stop your utterly partisan display. You cannot be a fanatic participant on one side of a discussion and simultaneously sit in judgement on members speaking against your viewes. It is embarrassing to see such behaviour.

Sincerely,

'Joe Shearer'

I have not dismissed any of the murders or rapes as per your accusation. I have merely stated that they were exaggerated beyond what was true. Learn to read through the post before posting contemptuous replies. I know too well of what was done in 71
.. no need to bring it up as if Im in denial. But as you yourself have admitted, leave the 65 war discussion to its timeline, I don't appreciate efforts by any Indian to rub in our nations mistakes on every other topic, you can have your satisfactions in that matter elsewhere.Discuss what has been stated, and that should be for all Pakistani's as well... Please do not bring an air victory in 65 as a counterweight to a loss in 71. Two different times.

Regards.

 

[shekhar]

People in my country talk against India because of 1971 and will continue to do so until we settle scores with you. Pakistanis don't trust India after 1971 and how hard is it to understand for you Indians???

1971 War:
Look at your brain washed views that Pakistan declared a WAR on India in 1971. It is called a pre-emptive strike in the wake of the aggression India was prepared to do in East Pakistan and it did. Do you really think Pak wanted India in this whole equation or you just poked your nose to cut East Pakistan as an enemy should do. Keep an open mind for God's sake. If i was at your place i would openly say that we poked our noses to hurt you and we did because we hate you and your existence.

No nothing happened after 1965. In 1971 India took advantage of the civil war and showed Pakistanis that it is our No.1 enemy and will leave no chance to hurt us. It was our internal political weakness.

The problems you are talking about only occurred after 1980 Afghan war which destroyed the fabric of Pakistan. But things don't remain the same.

1965 war:
Yes in 1965 war we initiated operation grandslam and gibraltor and India responded with full fledge war. The famous notion that India attacked us out of no where on 6th September is wrong. Our PAF kicked the hell out of IAF which is an open secret. Had the war continued Pak might have suffered losses but in the 7 day war Pak clearly withstand and counter attacked a 3 times bigger army which we consider a win for ourselves (In war terminology it is not a win nor defeat). I am an informed Pakistani and i accept the fact with open mind. Thats the difference between me and you.

1948:
India sent its forces because the Raja wanted to merge with India and public wanted to merge with Pak. Pak responded and saved whatever it could and the rest Indians occupied and have become disputed territory since then.

Kargil:
Yes we did it. And i am not narrow minded like you who cant accept it. We did it because of kashmir. Except for 1971 all wars are for Kashmir.

Talked about all 4 wars and these are facts no matter you are an Indian or Pakistani you will have to accept it.

MODS kindly dont delete this if this is a little off topic.

then why ur air force officer saying so in video that i posted and what about najam sethi comment if u disagree give logic

 

[rafay321]

well, if you did notexpect then that should make you happy..be happy !!

I accepted it cause when Indian members told you in earlier posts that it was Pakistan who started a full scale war after India intervened..you did not learn..so it was like wasting time and energy..anyways..good that you accept Pakistan started in 65,48 and 99..rather every time it was started silently in a backstabbing nature which India retaliated as mentioned earlier.

about dil and dimag...as I said whatever makes you happy my friend !!



you have fought for Kashmir because you already had the hatred for India...yes,thats the reality...sorry but if Kahmir is not India's then its not pakistan...India is there because it was always an integral part of India.

forget about democracy..i dont want to hear about democracy from a person whose country is ruled by army..thanks.



sorry mate..it was IA and not IAF..please see the videos and article in the beginning of the thread and enlighten yourself.



good !! all the best for you if you wanna grow...a stable Pakistan is in India's interest.



please do..we will welcome you the same we have been doing so far !!

then why ur air force officer saying so in video that i posted and what about najam sethi comment if u disagree give logic

After this stupid illogical reply from one of your countrymen, its confirmed that Indians and logic don't compliment each other. To my very logical post the guy responded in a very typical Bharat way just like your ministers your General Kapoora and your latest Army chief.

You can play this game till something big happens. Only then you guys can climb down from cloud 9, quit your arrogance and face the reality. It wont take long or huge effort on part of Pak. You guys have been doing it to yourself. Now if i start explaining how Bharatis' illogical posts will follow. So forget it.

I am just happy for all the Bhartis on this forum. Atleast they are less brain washed than the rest of your breed.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I have not dismissed any of the murders or rapes as per your accusation. I have merely stated that they were exaggerated beyond what was true. Learn to read through the post before posting contemptuous replies. I know too well of what was done in 71
.. no need to bring it up as if Im in denial. But as you yourself have admitted, leave the 65 war discussion to its timeline, I don't appreciate efforts by any Indian to rub in our nations mistakes on every other topic, you can have your satisfactions in that matter elsewhere.Discuss what has been stated, and that should be for all Pakistani's as well... Please do not bring an air victory in 65 as a counterweight to a loss in 71. Two different times.

Regards.

Dear Sir,

I am afraid that the distortions have taken place in other posts, not mine. Please consider the facts.

Out of your original post of 25 lines, you devoted yourself to rebuttal of what someone said about 71 from line 13 onwards. In my response to that post, I devoted two sub-clauses of two sentences to your statements; the rest of my post was about 65. You chose, in your second post, to ignore what I had represented almost totally and focussed on those sub-clauses. For the portion that you devoted to 65, more below.

Would you describe that as proportionate or commensurate?

I suggest that you follow my example and stick to 65 and stick to what has been said about 65; there is no need to derail the thread again and again.

When you did condescend to consider what had been stated about 65, you ignored all the references suggested, all Pakistani sources, and said the following:

Discuss what has been stated, and that should be for all Pakistani's as well... Please do not bring an air victory in 65 as a counterweight to a loss in 71.

Which is fair enough, as a general stricture, but which is less than satisfactory if I were to look to see what in my post had provoked this. I cited four references; two were on the air war, two were on the battles on the ground. May I take it that you were not referring to anyone in specific when you said in general what you said in the passage highlighted above.

I still do not have your response to what I suggested, that your own sources put the record straight, both with regard to the poor performance on 1st Armoured (Indian) and with regard to Pakistani units in general. A re-reading of the Gadgor gallop would be salutary to overheated sentiments on both sides. It would be appreciated if you could yourself stick to the point, rather than firing salvoes into the middle distance.

Sincerely,

 

[T-Faz]

Fair enough, each in its place. Neither the rapes of 47-48, which T-Faz has been hotly contesting, nor the rapes or murders or ethnic cleansing of 71 which you have dismissed so elegantly are anything to do with 65.

The purpose of this thread was to demean to insult all Pakistani's and that too on a Pakistani thread. I merely posted an article from Time Magazine to provide an insight into what was described as coverage of the war at the time.

In doing this I was shamelessly countered with a stories of atrocities committed by certain Pakistani soldiers in an event dissimilar to this one.

I have been holding off with great difficulty and increasing anger in the face of very provocative remarks made by T-Faz, but if you wish, can flood you with exhaustive detail of the 65 conflict putting the picture very clear. Exclusively from Pakistani sources.

Please stop denying what your best and your brightest have put on record.

Provocative remarks were in response to similar ones made by your countrymen. Do not expect be to stand back while a bunch of chest thumpers insult and demean my nation. My anger made me act in a way that is thoroughly justified.

@T-Faz

Dear Sir,

Have some shame, and stop your utterly partisan display. You cannot be a fanatic participant on one side of a discussion and simultaneously sit in judgement on members speaking against your viewes. It is embarrassing to see such behaviour.

Do not insult me by asking for me to have some shame. I neither brought up this whole argument of rape or replied in the manner that I could have. The other Indian members started throwing dirt in this thread where they were expecting to feel superior by posting an analysis that is of glee to them. It is embarrassing to see your behavior when you could not ask your fellow countrymen to show some dignity and restraint with what they continued to post.

I rightfully deleted posts which did not add anything to the topic at hand, neither did they contain content that would add to their claims.

Like I rightfully said, open another thread for a discussion that does not belong to this thread.

Another thing you might want to notice is that there is no Indian website where they would allow a thread like this to be discussed. It was meant purely for the sake of demeaning us. When the reality was presented which is not satisfactory to both of us. One Indian member brought in unrelated claims that were purely meant to enflame the thread.

And it is known how often this occurs because of certain members.

 

[Mirza Jatt]

After this stupid illogical reply from one of your countrymen, its confirmed that Indians and logic don't compliment each other. To my very logical post the guy responded in a very typical Bharat way just like your ministers your General Kapoora and your latest Army chief.

You can play this game till something big happens. Only then you guys can climb down from cloud 9, quit your arrogance and face the reality. It wont take long or huge effort on part of Pak. You guys have been doing it to yourself. Now if i start explaining how Bharatis' illogical posts will follow. So forget it.

I am just happy for all the Bhartis on this forum. Atleast they are less brain washed than the rest of your breed.

is that all you wanted to say in response to my post ?? nothing..I mean nothing in thi spost of yours is what we were/are discussing in the thread....and please do not worry about Indians logical or illogical posts..I can clearly see your "logical post"..so yeah ! forget it.

BTW I dont belive in insulting pakistanis..so you will not find any post that says Pakistan are this and Pakistanis are that...but just look at your post

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Why are we bringing up something that is 45 years old thing?

 

[T-Faz]

Pakistan lost the 1965 war and this war led to 1971 war because the unrest in east Pakistan stared after the 1965 war.

1965 war was the STARTING POINT OF DISMEMBERMENT OF PAKISTAN.

So the Bengalis demanding independence in 1953 and the other such incidents happened after 1965.

Please learn history before commenting, there were talks of giving Bangladesh independence long before 1971.

 

[Joe Shearer]

So the Bengalis demanding independence in 1953 and the other such incidents happened after 1965.

Please learn history before commenting, there were talks of giving Bangladesh independence long before 1971.

Dear Sir,

While I format my reply to your long mail in between my domestic chores, I chanced to read this.

Your reference is startling. Could you give us some authorities for this statement?

Incidentally, I learnt history for some lengthy period of time, so I hope you will not apply your strictures to me.

Sincerely,

 

[T-Faz]

Dear Sir,

While I format my reply to your long mail in between my domestic chores, I chanced to read this.

Your reference is startling. Could you give us some authorities for this statement?

Incidentally, I learnt history for some lengthy period of time, so I hope you will not apply your strictures to me.

Sincerely,

Here you go.

West Pakistan newspapers thundered for punitive martial law in the east. But East Pakistan's chief minister, 82-year-old Fazlul Huq, the wily "Lion of Bengal," stomped aboard a plane for Karachi, closeted himself for hours with Premier Mohammed Ali, then stomped out, announcing that his people wanted no less than independence. Said he: "Of course, they [West Pakistan] will try to resist such a move. But when a man wants freedom, he wants it."

PAKISTAN: Butchery in Bengal - TIME

Written in Time Magazine, dated Monday, May. 31, 1954.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Here you go.



PAKISTAN: Butchery in Bengal - TIME

Written in Time Magazine, dated Monday, May. 31, 1954.

Dear Sir,

It reads different from a giving of freedom to me. It reads like a demand for being given freedom. It was not a West Pakistani initiative to rid West Pakistan of a difficult, unruly East Pakistan, as your statement seemed to imply, rather, it was a gambit by a provincial leader facing calls for martial law against his people.

Do you really see no difference between a West Pakistani thought of 'giving' freedom, and an East Pakistani thought of 'taking' freedom? Or are all these more or less the same thing, to you?

Sincerely,

 

[T-Faz]

Dear Sir,

It reads different from a giving of freedom to me. It reads like a demand for being given freedom. It was not a West Pakistani initiative to rid West Pakistan of a difficult, unruly East Pakistan, as your statement seemed to imply, rather, it was a gambit by a provincial leader facing calls for martial law against his people.

There were frequent demands for autonomy and/or independence from Bangladeshi leaders after the creation of Bangladesh. A number of my family members and others who had prominent roles in the civilian structure had discussed what I stated. Truth be told, west Pakistani's saw east Pakistan as a burden because of monumental differences and they were aware that India will take full advantage of the situation. It did what was expected and the problem reached peak after Bhutto refused to accept a loss to Rahman.

Do you really see no difference between a West Pakistani thought of 'giving' freedom, and an East Pakistani thought of 'taking' freedom? Or are all these more or less the same thing, to you?

Don't confuse the two as a the same, I stated that giving freedom to Bangladesh was discussed by many in West Pakistan. The reference I gave you was to inform you of the demands of an independent Bangladesh from prominent characters such as Fazlul Huq.

 

[rafay321]

is that all you wanted to say in response to my post ?? nothing..I mean nothing in thi spost of yours is what we were/are discussing in the thread....and please do not worry about Indians logical or illogical posts..I can clearly see your "logical post"..so yeah ! forget it.

BTW I dont belive in insulting pakistanis..so you will not find any post that says Pakistan are this and Pakistanis are that...but just look at your post

You can't insult Pakistanis here and expect to stay. i am sure you have your share of insults somewhere in bhashak forum.

I asked you why don't you apply your democratic principles in Kashmir. When the Raja ordered the then PM of India to send in force to occupy the valley, why didn't your leader said that we will go by the will of the people? Wait a second. Someone did make a promise.

What was your reply to this?

forget about democracy..i dont want to hear about democracy from a person whose country is ruled by army..thanks.

You say Pakistan is a country ruled by dictators.....but Indians do a little dictatorship when it suits them.

Nicely evaded. I am kinda used to and tired of it already. I want to hear fromy ou that yeah we are double faced and democracy does not suit us in Kashmir so we have 700,000 soldiers there to oppress the locals. Can you ever be that clear?

Instead every Indian says that Kashmir is integral part of India.....but Kashmiris aren't. I am looking for one open minded Indian with whom i can discuss things very clearly. Just like i said that in 65 Pak attacked Kashmir clearly and openly. I can't find one Indian who accepts that yeah India did this. Instead all of you act like saints who never did anything wrong to Pak. Cmon man grow up.

Accept the things your country did. What are you scared of? Or you just want to live the dream of Pak being the baddest country and India is the land of saints.

 

[ramu]

You can't insult Pakistanis here and expect to stay. i am sure you have your share of insults somewhere in bhashak forum.

I asked you why don't you apply your democratic principles in Kashmir. When the Raja ordered the then PM of India to send in force to occupy the valley, why didn't your leader said that we will go by the will of the people? Wait a second. Someone did make a promise.

What was your reply to this?



You say Pakistan is a country ruled by dictators.....but Indians do a little dictatorship when it suits them.

Nicely evaded. I am kinda used to and tired of it already. I want to hear fromy ou that yeah we are double faced and democracy does not suit us in Kashmir so we have 700,000 soldiers there to oppress the locals. Can you ever be that clear?

Instead every Indian says that Kashmir is integral part of India.....but Kashmiris aren't. I am looking for one open minded Indian with whom i can discuss things very clearly. Just like i said that in 65 Pak attacked Kashmir clearly and openly. I can't find one Indian who accepts that yeah India did this. Instead all of you act like saints who never did anything wrong to Pak. Cmon man grow up.

Accept the things your country did. What are you scared of? Or you just want to live the dream of Pak being the baddest country and India is the land of saints.

Clearly you have not understood his argument and you are beating around the bust instead of responding logically. Your post was a waste of real estate and I did not bother to reply. Now you talk about insults and who stays and who does not.

Make note of this clearly: Kashmiris do not want to be a part of Pakistan. Less than 2% of Kashmiris think joining Pakistan will be good for them. So Instead of ranting present facts and show some evidence. Don't talk like the politicians.

 

[Mirza Jatt]

You can't insult Pakistanis here and expect to stay. i am sure you have your share of insults somewhere in bhashak forum.

sorry dude..but I am not a newbie like you here...and I know how sensible posts come from both the side without insulting either of them..both pakistanis and Indians...thats why I want you to see your way of insulting Indians...now please do not reply to this, if you are intended on the insults and insults only..thanks in advance.

I asked you why don't you apply your democratic principles in Kashmir. When the Raja ordered the then PM of India to send in force to occupy the valley, why didn't your leader said that we will go by the will of the people? Wait a second. Someone did make a promise.

What was your reply to this?

sorry but, what was the will of the people on that moment ?? did they write a letter to you that they want to go with pakistan, its your assumption that they might have gone..BTW do include kashmiri pandits and their will as well...they are kashmiris as well...on the other hand..arent you the onewho even before any decision used force to get kashmir ?? so why would India wait to defend a territory whose owner asks it to help him out against the attack by pakistan ?

You say Pakistan is a country ruled by dictators.....but Indians do a little dictatorship when it suits them.

Nicely evaded. I am kinda used to and tired of it already. I want to hear fromy ou that yeah we are double faced and democracy does not suit us in Kashmir so we have 700,000 soldiers there to oppress the locals. Can you ever be that clear?

700000 ?? are you sure ?? or just wrote that number by mistake..anyways..o your question..

we have the soldiers there to prtect the land from the terrorist from across the border..got your answer ??

Instead every Indian says that Kashmir is integral part of India.....but Kashmiris aren't. I am looking for one open minded Indian with whom i can discuss things very clearly. Just like i said that in 65 Pak attacked Kashmir clearly and openly. I can't find one Indian who accepts that yeah India did this. Instead all of you act like saints who never did anything wrong to Pak. Cmon man grow up.

you accept 65 , because you cannot deny it ..as you have the evidence on the face of it....you are not doing us a favour by accepting it and want us to return the favour by accepting what isnt true..

Accept the things your country did. What are you scared of? Or you just want to live the dream of Pak being the baddest country and India is the land of saints.

No land is land of saints today..but if you are directly accusing India , then you must be told what the world thinks about both India and pakistan..isnt it?? so go and accuse them instead accusing India alone.