The Myth of 1965 Victory - Indian View

[ramu]

If you look at the military capability of both countries at the time...Pakistan was a long way behind in many areas (ammunition,logistics,heavy armour etc) compared to India. The partition of the subcontinent resulted in Pakistan receiving meagre resources and did not look good on paper in terms of capabilities.

So instead of growing strong by development why did they decide to start a war?

The 1965 war should have been a no contest war...India should have had the upperhand and should have been able to disable Pakistan....the War can be argued to have been a draw.

It was started by Pakistan to occupy Kashmir and remove Indian authority on it. Pakistan failed. India did not intend to occupy Pakistan and that was not the reason for retaliation. The response was a counter strike and an act in defence. India was successful and not an inch of Kashmir was lost in 65. In that sense, Indian objective of defence was a grand success.

However, Since the inception of Pakistan - the country has always been in a strategic disadvantage. I'm actually surprised that it has even lasted this long - the odds against it were extremly high.

It can be argued that despite all the military might of India since inception until to date - it has not been able to dismantle/destroy/reduce its neighbour despite the opportunities it had. Pakistan has always managed to somehow fight harder to survive.
I believe that if Pakistan had the military resources as that of India - it would be no more. With all the strategic depth, professional military capabilities in its armed forces and a lot stronger economy - India should have neutralised Pakistan for good. however, I'm sure it has caused undue pain to the military psyche of the Indian armed forces that they have been unable to cause a decisive blow to its arch enemy.

You can argue anything but India has not been the aggressor and has no interest in dismantling or destroying Pakistan. Pakistan is in the danger of imploding and going by popular understanding, Pakistan has a good reason to believe that its political system is still not functioning for the benefit of its people.

All in all, both countries have professional and highly skilled/trained armed personnel and the firepower to go along with it. I personally think that both countries need to be in a position to DETER one another from any future conflict - as the new military arsenal will cause substantial damage to both countries (WMD).

India and Pakistan had nuclear weapons but that did not stop Kargil episode. So deterrence is for the sane and responsible. It is difficult to understand who is responsible for Pakistan's actions as at most times it is the non state actors or the army who have a mind of their own.

If any one of these nations alter the balance of power in each others favours - then the potential for conflict will be alot more higher. Both nations need to concentrate on improving their economies and the welfare of their people - reduce poverty and increase development.

Not sure how your comments are relevant to a military history thread that relates to 1965.

 

[rafay321]

Just like Pakistan's existence, Indians can't accept the harsh facts of 1965. Their Air chief announced on their National radio that he could not guarantee the safety of Indian air space anymore.

When i went to Bahrain and worked with few Indians, they use to ask me why don't i have a beard and are their highways in Pakistan. Do you have mcd and KFC? Do you get Indian channels? Does Pak have entertainment channels or are they not allowed? One of them was stunned to know that my senior manager in Pak is a Hindu. These guys are brain washed. The reason behind mentioning this over here is that when you don't have such basic info about Pak how do you expect to be told truth about 1965?

In a recent stupid movie called PAA. Abhishek Bachan visits a school where students have made different projects. One project showed the full map of sub continent with bandages attached on the India Pak border implying the wound the Indians suffered during Pakistan's independence. Although this this was shown for less than 5 seconds but it just shows the real Indian mentality which is one may find in every Indian brain. This Indian breed needs to change their point of view and need to become open minded.
Their media has truly brain washed them.


What's INDEPENDENCE ofr us is PARTITION over there. They still dream of merging it back.

 

[ramu]

Just like Pakistan's existence, Indians can't accept the harsh facts of 1965. Their Air chief announced on their National radio that he could not guarantee the safety of Indian air space anymore.



In a recent stupid movie called PAA. Abhishek Bachan visits a school where students have made different projects. One project showed the full map of sub continent with bandages attached on the India Pak border implying the wound the Indians suffered during Pakistan's independence. Although this this was shown for less than 5 seconds but it just shows the real Indian mentality which is one may find in every Indian brain.

What's INDEPENDENCE ofr us is PARTITION over there. They still dream of merging it back.

If Indian air chief was worried and that is your moment of glory, India will let you have it.

War is not about a moment of glory but a scene that changes the future. A war can change the complete geo political landscape but 1965 did none of that. Infact, as one of the posters suggested, the war drove Pakistan into the grips of religious intolerance and extremism. The seeds of partition with Bangladesh was sown in the aftermath of this war when a federal state with centric command was announced.

India has no territorial ambitions. India is ready to fight for Kashmir if it comes to that.

People in your country talk about hoisting the Pakistan flag on red fort. This is not a movie, its on NEWS. People in your country who are at the very top talk about a 1000 year war with India, and this again is not on the silver screen. It is your politicians. Get a grip on reality and speak with some sense.

Pakistan initiated the 1947-48 trible venture to capture Kashmir by force. It was Pakistan that initiated the 1965 war by sending army men into India. It was Pakistan again which used its air force to declare a full scale war in 1971. It was Pakistan who came in to Kargil and started a war when Atal Bihari Vajpayee was making a peace journey by Bus to Pakistan.

Now need I say more.

 

[SQ8]

Superman, avoid flaming.
And the 65 war was all that American Eagle as said it to be.
A betrayal of a nation which trusted its leaders to do the best for it.. instead of leading it into a war which by every account.. should have led to near destruction of Pakistan.. save for the miracle of human sacrifice and bravery displayed by gallant fighting men..

Probably the most eye opening account of 65 is from A.C Sajjad haider and one or two others.

Ramu the air attack in 71 was not the first declaration of hostility, The Indians were giving full armed support to the Bengali's and Indian Divisions were poised are ready to invade.. All accounts made by Military personnel.. even those who did not support the war state that Indian forces had crossed the border when the PAF hit back...the open hostility was declared on ALL fronts by the airstrike. Hostilities were ongoing in east Pakistan.
Do not bring wikipedia rebuttals.. it already sounds like Indi-pedia...give me another source otherwise.
As for the butchering of Bengali's.. in 71. The scale is slightly exaggerated and whatever did happen was first instigated by the Mukti bahni...Although there were horrible atrocities committed earlier on a smaller scale by the Army who were fed on the "Bhoka, Ganda Bingo" line forwarded from Ayub Khan himself.
I have heard first hand accounts of witnesses seeing Pakistan Army men shooting Bengali's after telling them to climb the tree to get them a coconut..
That was a reality, but the "massive" rapes and killings are exaggerated a BIT, most were carried out after the Mukti Bahni brutally killed west Pakistani citizens in Dhaka which included Military officers and their wives and children... what happened next was vengeful retaliation...preceded by operation searchlight which was a more planned way to curb all dissidents.
Western Media was fresh in from Vietnam and did not spare adding bloated accounts to turn Tikka Khan who was nothing more than a Yes sir man into a Pol Pot. If anybody is responsible, its Orgy-man Niazi and Noor-Jehan guy Yahya.

Now back to the 65 war please.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Santro

Superman, avoid flaming.
And the 65 war was all that American Eagle as said it to be.
A betrayal of a nation which trusted its leaders to do the best for it.. instead of leading it into a war which by every account.. should have led to near destruction of Pakistan.. save for the miracle of human sacrifice and bravery displayed by gallant fighting men..

Probably the most eye opening account of 65 is from A.C Sajjad haider and one or two others.

As for the butchering of Bengali's.. in 71. The scale is slightly exaggerated and whatever did happen was first instigated by the Mukti bahni...Although there were horrible atrocities committed earlier on a smaller scale by the Army who were fed on the "Bhoka, Ganda Bingo" line forwarded from Ayub Khan himself.
I have heard first hand accounts of witnesses seeing Pakistan Army men shooting Bengali's after telling them to climb the tree to get them a coconut..
That was a reality, but the "massive" rapes and killings are exaggerated a BIT, most were carried out after the Mukti Bahni brutally killed west Pakistani citizens in Dhaka which included Military officers and their wives and children... what happened next was vengeful retaliation...preceded by operation searchlight which was a more planned way to curb all dissidents.
Western Media was fresh in from Vietnam and did not spare adding bloated accounts to turn Tikka Khan who was nothing more than a Yes sir man into a Pol Pot. If anybody is responsible, its Orgy-man Niazi and Noor-Jehan guy Yahya.

Now back to the 65 war please.

Dear Sir,

Fair enough, each in its place. Neither the rapes of 47-48, which T-Faz has been hotly contesting, nor the rapes or murders or ethnic cleansing of 71 which you have dismissed so elegantly are anything to do with 65.

That works for me.

Would you believe:

1. Air Marshal Nur Khan; his video is already available;
2. Air Marshal Asghar Khan; his interview appeared in the Pakistani media within the last 12 months;
3. Major A. H. Amin, PAVO Cavalry, whose account of the war is the best from either side; his writings are very widely available, or I can present you links in plenty;
4. Brigadier Z. A. Khan, who came from a family where his generation contributed not one, not two, but nearly a dozen military officers of worth; his account, by the way, might guide you to a better understanding whenever you want to return to 'prettifying' the account of 71, if ever you do.

I have been holding off with great difficulty and increasing anger in the face of very provocative remarks made by T-Faz, but if you wish, can flood you with exhaustive detail of the 65 conflict putting the picture very clear. Exclusively from Pakistani sources.

Please stop denying what your best and your brightest have put on record.

Sincerely,

'Joe Shearer'

@T-Faz

Dear Sir,

Have some shame, and stop your utterly partisan display. You cannot be a fanatic participant on one side of a discussion and simultaneously sit in judgement on members speaking against your viewes. It is embarrassing to see such behaviour.

Sincerely,

'Joe Shearer'

 

[rafay321]

If Indian air chief was worried and that is your moment of glory, India will let you have it.

War is not about a moment of glory but a scene that changes the future. A war can change the complete geo political landscape but 1965 did none of that. Infact, as one of the posters suggested, the war drove Pakistan into the grips of religious intolerance and extremism. The seeds of partition with Bangladesh was sown in the aftermath of this war when a federal state with centric command was announced.

India has no territorial ambitions. India is ready to fight for Kashmir if it comes to that.

People in your country talk about hoisting the Pakistan flag on red fort. This is not a movie, its on NEWS. People in your country who are at the very top talk about a 1000 year war with India, and this again is not on the silver screen. It is your politicians. Get a grip on reality and speak with some sense.

Pakistan initiated the 1947-48 trible venture to capture Kashmir by force. It was Pakistan that initiated the 1965 war by sending army men into India. It was Pakistan again which used its air force to declare a full scale war in 1971. It was Pakistan who came in to Kargil and started a war when Atal Bihari Vajpayee was making a peace journey by Bus to Pakistan.

Now need I say more.

People in my country talk against India because of 1971 and will continue to do so until we settle scores with you. Pakistanis don't trust India after 1971 and how hard is it to understand for you Indians???

1971 War:
Look at your brain washed views that Pakistan declared a WAR on India in 1971. It is called a pre-emptive strike in the wake of the aggression India was prepared to do in East Pakistan and it did. Do you really think Pak wanted India in this whole equation or you just poked your nose to cut East Pakistan as an enemy should do. Keep an open mind for God's sake. If i was at your place i would openly say that we poked our noses to hurt you and we did because we hate you and your existence.

No nothing happened after 1965. In 1971 India took advantage of the civil war and showed Pakistanis that it is our No.1 enemy and will leave no chance to hurt us. It was our internal political weakness.

The problems you are talking about only occurred after 1980 Afghan war which destroyed the fabric of Pakistan. But things don't remain the same.

1965 war:
Yes in 1965 war we initiated operation grandslam and gibraltor and India responded with full fledge war. The famous notion that India attacked us out of no where on 6th September is wrong. Our PAF kicked the hell out of IAF which is an open secret. Had the war continued Pak might have suffered losses but in the 7 day war Pak clearly withstand and counter attacked a 3 times bigger army which we consider a win for ourselves (In war terminology it is not a win nor defeat). I am an informed Pakistani and i accept the fact with open mind. Thats the difference between me and you.

1948:
India sent its forces because the Raja wanted to merge with India and public wanted to merge with Pak. Pak responded and saved whatever it could and the rest Indians occupied and have become disputed territory since then.

Kargil:
Yes we did it. And i am not narrow minded like you who cant accept it. We did it because of kashmir. Except for 1971 all wars are for Kashmir.

Talked about all 4 wars and these are facts no matter you are an Indian or Pakistani you will have to accept it.

MODS kindly dont delete this if this is a little off topic.

 

[Mirza Jatt]

People in my country talk against India because of 1971 and will continue to do so until we settle scores with you. Pakistanis don't trust India after 1971 and how hard is it to understand for you Indians???

Pakistanis dont trust Indians after 1971 ??

well. 65 happened earlier,right ! so can we say you cannot be trusted ? especially after you have continued your hatred in 99.

what scores do you want to settle huh ?? India got backtstabbed everytime and here its you who want to settle the scores ??

is that hard for you to understand ?

 

[rafay321]

Pakistanis dont trust Indians after 1971 ??

well. 65 happened earlier,right ! so can we say you cannot be trusted ? especially after you have continued your hatred in 99.

what scores do you want to settle huh ?? India got backtstabbed everytime and here its you who want to settle the scores ??

is that hard for you to understand ?

That exactly what i am saying. Wars will keep going till we exist. You talk about us attacking kashmir in 1965 but you did it way back in 1948.

This whole thing started when India set its forces to Kashmir in 1948. Had you keep an open mind and let the people and UN decide all this could have been avoided. Accept another fact that India knew if UN intervened Kashmir would have gone to Pak and India could not have controlled the major rivers. India the biggest democracy claims Kashmir based on instructions it received from a dictator raja that he wants to merge with India because he is Hindu and the people can go to hell. Where is the democracy and people here??

Yes scores will be settled. As a Pakistani i dont believe in no aman ki asha or anything. India started it in 1947..Pak did it in 1965..India showed its hatred in 71, pak again did it in 99. The only difference is that we always fought for Kashmir and you fought to keep the hatred alive. India had no role in 1971 but it still did it. No problem, we learnt our lesson.

Yes we attacked Kashmir in 1965 and in 99 but that was disputed territory and we claim right on kashmir. It was quiet a fair game. What was your role in East Pak?? except for playing our enemy? Please dont act like saints.

 

[Mirza Jatt]

That exactly what i am saying. Wars will keep going till we exist. You talk about us attacking kashmir in 1965 but you did it way back in 1948.

sorry but no one attacked you in 48..you tried to take it by force and it was on maharaja's call that IA intervened.

This whole thing started when India set its forces to Kashmir in 1948. Had you keep an open mind and let the people and UN decide all this could have been avoided. Accept another fact that India knew if UN intervened Kashmir would have gone to Pak and India could not have controlled the major rivers.

as I said no one backstabbed anyone in 1948 , but if we see the next war i.e 65..it was Pakistan who started a full scale war against India...and it were the same kashmiri people (whom you say would have gone with Pak)who informed IA about your evil plans of war.

Yes scores will be settled. As a Pakistani i dont belive in no aman ki asha or anything. India started it in 1947..Pak did it in 1965..India showed its hatred in 71, pak again did it in 99. The only difference is that we always fought for Kashmir and you fought to keep the hatred alive. India had no role in 1971 but it still did it. No problem, we learnt our lesson.

even I dont belive in such campaigns..let it be where they are..

India never started any war except 71..pakistan used the force first everytime...India retaliated...48,65,99...if you have learnt your lessons then so did we...

 

[rafay321]

sorry but no one attacked you in 48..you tried to take it by force and it was on maharaja's call that IA intervened.



as I said no one backstabbed anyone in 1948 , but if we see the next war i.e 65..it was Pakistan who started a full scale war against India...and it were the same kashmiri people (whom you say would have gone with Pak)who informed IA about your evil plans of war.



even I dont belive in such campaigns..let it be where they are..

India never started any war except 71..pakistan used the force first everytime...India retaliated...48,65,99...if you have learnt your lessons then so did we...

lol i don't expect you to accept that yes India started 1971 or 48 like i did accept about 1965 and 99. That is the only difference between an Indian and Pakistani. Bharat ka dil chota dimagh chota.

Pakistanis have always fought for Kashmir in 48, 65, 99 because our founder said that Kashmir is our juggular vein. We have a cause to fight for and we will. What is India's cause for kashmir? Putting in billions to occupy it? You have no cause except the same hatred and Pakistani water you want to control. The hatred is so big that you violate your own democratic rules which you so proudly employ in the rest of your country.

People telling IAF about invasion is what you see in the bolylwood movies my friend.

Don't worry. Pakistan will never remain economically weaker. Leaders always rise and countries progress. I guarantee you one thing. Whenever Pak is in position we will again Attack kashmir to take it. This shall continue till the final result.

Till then you may continue to accept that everytime Pak attacked INDIA. Whenever Pak attacked it attacked Kashmir. Future is the same for you and us both. You will continue your hatred like we are seeing in FATA and we will continue our fight for Kashmir cause.

 

[ice_man]

sorry but no one attacked you in 48..you tried to take it by force and it was on maharaja's call that IA intervened.



as I said no one backstabbed anyone in 1948 , but if we see the next war i.e 65..it was Pakistan who started a full scale war against India...and it were the same kashmiri people (whom you say would have gone with Pak)who informed IA about your evil plans of war.



even I dont belive in such campaigns..let it be where they are..

India never started any war except 71..pakistan used the force first everytime...India retaliated...48,65,99...if you have learnt your lessons then so did we...

let's not get carried away!!

india invaded JUNGADH whose mahraja had decided to be part of pakistan hence we followed it by invading kashmir in 1948!!

and in 1984 you did SIACHEN operation which we learnt from and launched KARGIL!!


so don't try to [portray yourself as innocent LAXMIs!

 

[ramu]

...

Hope you got your answer from Indian Jatt.

1965 was unprovoked.
Your think tank in Pakistan made Pakistan a federal state that resulted in large scale dissatisfaction in Baluchistan and Bangladesh. The seeds of partition was sown by your own people. Don't blame India.

About your hate, save it. Talk sense and don't talk about vengeance when you people have started the series.

 

[Mirza Jatt]

lol i don't expect you to accept that yes India started 1971 like i did accept about 1965. That is the only difference between an Indian and Pakistani. Bharat ka dil chota dimagh chota.

well, if you did notexpect then that should make you happy..be happy !!

I accepted it cause when Indian members told you in earlier posts that it was Pakistan who started a full scale war after India intervened..you did not learn..so it was like wasting time and energy..anyways..good that you accept Pakistan started in 65,48 and 99..rather every time it was started silently in a backstabbing nature which India retaliated as mentioned earlier.

about dil and dimag...as I said whatever makes you happy my friend !!

Pakistanis have always fought for Kashmir in 48, 65, 99 because our founder said that Kashmir is our juggular vein. We have a cause to fight for and we will. What is India's cause for kashmir? Putting in billions to occupy it? You have no cause except the same hatred and Pakistani water you want to control. The hatred is so big that you violate your own democratic rules which you so proudly employ in the rest of your country.

you have fought for Kashmir because you already had the hatred for India...yes,thats the reality...sorry but if Kahmir is not India's then its not pakistan...India is there because it was always an integral part of India.

forget about democracy..i dont want to hear about democracy from a person whose country is ruled by army..thanks.

People telling IAF about invasion is what you see in the bolylwood movies my friend.

sorry mate..it was IA and not IAF..please see the videos and article in the beginning of the thread and enlighten yourself.

Don't worry. Pakistan will never remain economically weaker. Leaders always rise and countries progress. I guarantee you one thing.

good !! all the best for you if you wanna grow...a stable Pakistan is in India's interest.

Whenever Pak is in position we will again Attack kashmir to take it. This shall continue till the final result

please do..we will welcome you the same we have been doing so far !!

 

[ramu]

let's not get carried away!!

india invaded JUNGADH whose mahraja had decided to be part of pakistan hence we followed it by invading kashmir in 1948!!

and in 1984 you did SIACHEN operation which we learnt from and launched KARGIL!!


so don't try to [portray yourself as innocent LAXMIs!

So why is Pakistan now crying ? Failure in Kashmir (1947) is highlighting your own inability.

India took over Jungadh as it had the ability to do so. India did not send tribals / barbarians with an animal instinct to Jungadh did they ? The land of Gujrat is the land of Mahatma Gandhi. So much for your anti Indian views.

Siachen: Who gifted Aksai Chin to China ? Why do you need Siachen ? To gift it to China ?

 

[Mirza Jatt]

let's not get carried away!!

india invaded JUNGADH whose mahraja had decided to be part of pakistan hence we followed it by invading kashmir in 1948!!

you should have com to its rescue then..shouldnt you ?? instead of invading kashmir your army should have gone to Junagadh ..why chose kashmir ??

and in 1984 you did SIACHEN operation which we learnt from and launched KARGIL!!

a I said earlier..65 happened earlier and till 84 India and Pakistan had already fought three large scale wars..whom would you trust ?? I am sure if pakistan gets Siachen it would do the same.

so don't try to portray yourself as innocent LAXMIs!

we dont...you are trying it desperately my friend..see the entire thread !