The Myth of 1965 Victory - Indian View

[T-Faz]

The Indians hoped to force the dispersion of the smaller but better-trained and -armed Pakistani forces and then chop them up piecemeal.

Indian quantity and Pakistan quality

In the short run, Pakistan's small, highly trained army is more than a match for the Indians.

This is what irks India to this day.

 

[T-Faz]

I dont write without proof, so chill.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Ishtiaq Ahmed, are you joking or what. This guy has been distorting things for such a long time that it is not even funny anymore.

Ishtiaq Ahmed’s Distortions About The Pakistan Movement Pak Tea House

This is all that you can come up with, I have heard of people who went Kashmir then. They did not do what your army specializes in.

 

[ramu]

The U.S. was caught in the middle. Washington officials watched in dismay as Pakistan and India clawed at each other with U.S. weapons and planes that had been given them for the express purpose of opposing Communist aggression. The U.S. wanted only to be friends with both powers, but was roundly denounced by each. Along Karachi streets, Americans heard the old, familiar chant: "Yankee, go home!" In India, two German tourists were beaten by a mob that thought they were Americans. Washington held only one trump card and promptly used it: all military supplies to both countries were suspended. Pakistan would be the first to feel the pinch since it is wholly dependent on U.S. spare parts and, unlike India, has no real industrial base for home production of arms. Eventually, the U.S. arms cutoff—in which Britain joined—could ground both sides' jet planes and halt their tanks, reducing the whole affair to an infantry war—but not before weeks have passed.

Not sure why the strategists in Pakistan did not factor this into the war plan. India did not want a war and spent months coming to a decision to go to war. It was in early September that India got in to the responding phase and started the counter attack. Irrespective of supplies and other constraints the calculation of the lords in Islamabad was flawed and were smacked back in the face for the first time by US. This smacking strangely was not the last.

 

[ramu]

This is what irks India to this day.

NO it does not. Seriously, do you really think this irks us? India was irked by the fact that Pakistan was a model of development for South Korea and were moving ahead in terms of development. It should irk Pakistan to have caught the wrong note, forget development for decades and radicalise its population with biased education and venom for its eastern neighbour.

 

[T-Faz]

So Ayub was an enemy of Pakistan, he achieved all this this for our nation.

Ayub has made Pakistan's government the least corrupt of any nation on the Asian continent.

On the edge of bankruptcy three years ago, Pakistan now has some $235 million in foreign exchange reserves, has curbed inflation at home. Ayub stoked up the Pakistan Industrial Development Corp., which starts new industries with government capital, sells them to private businessmen as soon as they are flourishing. The agency helped boost Pakistan's national income some 4% last year. Food grain output has increased almost 19%.

General Ayub's simple ambition: to make Pakistan live up to the literal meaning of its name, Land of the Pure.

Signs of Progress. At home Ayub Khan cleaned house by firing some 2,000 corrupt bureaucrats, cracked down on black-marketeers and hoarders, collected long overdue taxes, and even retrieved two tons of gold from the sea, where it had been sunk by smugglers. Big landowners were forced to disgorge 3,000,000 acres for distribution to landless peasants. Fifty thousand Moslem refugees who had fled India twelve years ago were moved from fetid mud-and-straw shantytowns on the edge of Karachi into newly built camps. Foreign reserves have nearly doubled, industrial production has jumped by 10% and, even more remarkably, a $25 million International Monetary Fund credit was canceled because Ayub decided Pakistan did not need it.

After twelve years of border conflict in Kashmir, an Indian and a Pakistani commission last week concluded talks that may put this problem to rest. Half a year ago, Nehru and most Indians still spoke contemptuously of the "naked military dictatorship" in Pakistan. Today Indians are increasingly aware that social and economic evils still festering in India under their civilian leader have been successfully attacked in Pakistan by its soldier leader.

 

[T-Faz]

NO it does not. Seriously, do you really think this irks us? India was irked by the fact that Pakistan was a model of development for South Korea and were moving ahead in terms of development. It should irk Pakistan to have caught the wrong note, forget development for decades and radicalise its population with biased education and venom for its eastern neighbour.

Nothing lasts forever, we had our time, you have yours. We shall see what happens in the future.

We did very well until war spilled over into our country, lets see what happens after the region is stabilized.

 

[ramu]

Ishtiaq Ahmed, are you joking or what. This guy has been distorting things for such a long time that it is not even funny anymore.

Ishtiaq Ahmed’s Distortions About The Pakistan Movement Pak Tea House

This is all that you can come up with, I have heard of people who went Kashmir then. They did not do what your army specializes in.

OK moderator, another author for you, again from Pakistan.

The comment from the author tacitly agrees with the previous article but goes on to another discussion about culture which we can keep out of the current discussion given we are already on the boundaries of the topic being discussed.

I am not denying the fact that the tribal fighters did indulge in human rights violations in Kashmir. They should never have gone to Kashmir for that so-called jihad in 1947-48. It is also a fact that the entire tribal population of FATA never joined them. Only a tiny fraction of the population went for ‘jihad’. How can the activities of that fraction be labelled as ‘rooted’ in the culture of the entire population? Seemingly, many more Muslim Punjabis killed, pillaged and raped non-Muslim Punjabis and vice versa during the partition in 1947. I have yet to see any Pakhtun saying on a national level public forum like the Daily Times that all that savagery is rooted in the Punjabi culture.

Secondly, the tribesmen were encouraged and facilitated by the state to go to Kashmir for ‘jihad’. It was the responsibility of the state to have disciplined them. I am not ready to believe that indiscipline too is rooted in the Pakhtun culture. If so, how come the Pakistan Army has disciplined so many Pakhtun soldiers in their rank and file, including those from the tribal areas?

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

 

[ramu]

Nothing lasts forever, we had our time, you have yours. We shall see what happens in the future.

We did very well until war spilled over into our country, lets see what happens after the region is stabilized.

The future is unknown and I would love to see India Pakistan and Bangladesh do well and become a prosperous block. Let us see as you say what will happen in the unknown realm of time.

 

[Patriot]

Guys General Ayub Khan was not behind 1965 war.It was FM Bhutto who mislead the GHQ as well and they got overconfident.I admit it was not a victory but not a defeat either.It was a stalemate but nevertheless this stalemate led to the defeat of 1971.We never learned from our mistakes unlike India.

 

[T-Faz]

If you don't mind...


BBC - h2g2 - The India-Pakistan Conflict Part 2: Kashmir

So you are going to provide an editable guide as proof, open another thread for this if you want to discuss this. Also this just repeats what that Ahmed character wrote. Great way of moving away from the topic isn't it.

The comment from the author tacitly agrees with the previous article but goes on to another discussion about culture which we can keep out of the current discussion given we are already on the boundaries of the topic being discussed.

So where is the mention of rape.

Keep your off topic unproven statements out of here. Discuss the topic only, if you want to discuss that, open another thread.

 

[ramu]

Most military observers thought the fighting so far had gone about as expected. In the short run, Pakistan's small, highly trained army is more than a match for the Indians. But each skirmish and each day in the field reduces the efficiency of the U.S. weapons and equipment, and brings the Pakistanis toward closer parity with the Indians.

All of the Indian drives in the Punjab seem to have been stopped cold a short distance across the border. One unit attacking Lahore was severely handled and driven back into India, where it has dug in in defense of Ferozepore. But should the war be prolonged several more weeks, military men think that the more numerous Indian army will begin to prevail.

This was a premature analysis as the Indian side had just polished its weapons for a response in early September. Refer to the final analysis for a good perspective on what Pakistan was left with in the Tashkent agreement. That gives an indication of who had the upper hand.

 

[gubbi]

This little sentence says it all.

When the British left India in 1947, it was commonly said that Pakistan got the military, and India the civil servants

Turns out, the civil servants were a boon!

 

[T-Faz]

Time Magazine is a globally respected magazine which is recognised for its professional coverage.

The truth is there and some cannot fathom it. I one for am happy with it's content even though there are some parts that I find offensive.

 

[ramu]

Time Magazine is a globally respected magazine which is recognised for its professional coverage.

The truth is there and some cannot fathom it. I one for am happy with it's content even though there are some parts that I find offensive.

Time magazine is an American magazine and was published when America was a strong ally of Pakistan. Next, it was published in September when the initial attack from India had just begun. So it is a premature article to judge the war as the war was fought and lasted many more weeks after the publication.

 

[foxhound]

If you look at the military capability of both countries at the time...Pakistan was a long way behind in many areas (ammunition,logistics,heavy armour etc) compared to India. The partition of the subcontinent resulted in Pakistan receiving meagre resources and did not look good on paper in terms of capabilities.

The 1965 war should have been a no contest war...India should have had the upperhand and should have been able to disable Pakistan....the War can be argued to have been a draw.

However, Since the inception of Pakistan - the country has always been in a strategic disadvantage. I'm actually surprised that it has even lasted this long - the odds against it were extremly high.

It can be argued that despite all the military might of India since inception until to date - it has not been able to dismantle/destroy/reduce its neighbour despite the opportunities it had. Pakistan has always managed to somehow fight harder to survive.

I believe that if Pakistan had the military resources as that of India - it would be no more. With all the strategic depth, professional military capabilities in its armed forces and a lot stronger economy - India should have neutralised Pakistan for good. however, I'm sure it has caused undue pain to the military psyche of the Indian armed forces that they have been unable to cause a decisive blow to its arch enemy.

All in all, both countries have professional and highly skilled/trained armed personnel and the firepower to go along with it. I personally think that both countries need to be in a position to DETER one another from any future conflict - as the new military arsenal will cause substantial damage to both countries (WMD).

If any one of these nations alter the balance of power in each others favours - then the potential for conflict will be alot more higher. Both nations need to concentrate on improving their economies and the welfare of their people - reduce poverty and increase development.