The Murder of Osama Bin Laden. U S Pakistan Partners in Crime Seymour Hersh

[I.R.A]

Hi,

Now I know why Kiyani and Pasha threatened to neutralize me when I sent them the letter----to shoot their fcuking brains out for failing Pakistan.

Sir ji............................................. what is this story?

it attracted little attention because Abbottabad is a holiday spot full of houses rented on short leases.

This is a lie and misinformation, this is very recent phenomena where people mostly from Punjab come to Abbottabad to spend their Ramzan time there. Otherwise there is no such thing. If it was so you would see PC, Marriott or Serena opening a hotel there and lots of Guests houses being opened.

‘Everyone in Pakistan has a gun and high-profile, wealthy folks like those who live in Abbottabad have armed bodyguards, and yet there were no weapons in the compound,’ the retired official pointed out

Again a lie and misinformation.

Overall my personal belief is there was no OBL there at all, It was all drama to get BHO elected again. The piece of information you shared refers to people being injured in that copter crash, but nobody says a word how those people were transported back? Few in Pakistan as usual played a kirdar of a r***i for personal wishes of Government of US.

 

[Spring Onion]

Times of India

anyway the correct headline is OBL operation was a JOINT PAK-US venture We Pakistani members including me had been consistently saying the same on PDF as soon as it happened.

Now Indians sleep tight we knew it from start that it was Pakistan who played big role in OBL killing we just dolled it out to CIA to give some solace to rondoos after all you were being screwed in name of Nuke deal

 

[gambit]

Pakistan has a large, educated, English speaking middle class which is not about of have it's lifestyle compromised by Taliban. Pakistan rest assured is not Afghanistan even if we get hyphenated with them.

What I can tell you is we have a strip of territory on the Afghan border which legally is a semi autonmous region which has tribes living there related to Afghans who are free to live as they want. They are only required to accept nominal jurisdiction of federal Pakistan government authority. This strip is similar to the wild west in your history. The British made this arrangement with the wild tribes on the border and that arrangement has been kept. This strip is called FATA.

Federally Administered Tribal Areas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Almost all the Taliban are based there and most of the horror stories you hear take place in FATA. Of course sometimes trouble spills over but right now FATA is subject to full blown military occupation so to say to bring it under full central control.

However when I read the reports on Pakistan the 2% FATA is used to explain away 98% of the country. That would be like me deciding to size up USA by using Bronx or some other tough neighbourhood in USA. I realise the analogy does not quite fit but I hope you get the thrust of what I am saying.

If the government and citizens of Puerto Rico allowed -- innocently or intentionally -- their island to be a safe haven for a wanted fugitive who was charged with the assassination of a Latin American country's president, the US government would be all over the island.

FATA may be semi-autonomous, but that does not mean the region is authorized by Pakistani laws to conduct its own foreign affairs, correct ? But by its inhabitants repulsing Pakistani laws and harboring internationally well known terrorists and terrorist organizations, FATA is conducting its own foreign affairs in open defiance of the Pakistani government. Pakistan is morally and legally compelled to act and like it or not, the more repugnant the character of the person and/or organization, the greater the pressure, political and else, and the more powerful the means, Pakistan must bring to the region. In effect, Pakistan must take FATA's autonomy away until the dust settled.

Americans are not bound by any arguments from anyone to be understanding that there is a 'special' case in Pakistan. If an American politician is willing to be that understanding and managed to convince enough Americans to align with his/her view -- great for Pakistan. But currently, as far as most Americans goes, there is only 'Pakistan', not Pakistan + FATA. The world -- including ordinary Pakistanis -- sees the United States of America, not the United States of America + Puerto Rico + Virgin Islands. Americans are not so stupid as to be unable to distinguish the political status of FATA in relation to Pakistan -- we just do not care. If it is under Pakistan's legal and political jurisdiction, it is your problem.

But there is a danger for Pakistan if Pakistan continues to push the 'special' status of FATA to the media. The danger is that people, not just Americans, will form a perception that Pakistan is abandoning FATA, and even if Pakistan does not make public the approval of/for the US to deal with FATA any way we see fit, that perception will include tacit permission and approval to the same. If the US do things in and to FATA that Pakistan do not approve, public attitudes, not just of Americans, will be general apathy to Pakistan's pleas. Essentially, global public opinions will be: "Yeah...The Americans did X Y and Z terrible things in FATA, however..."

Pakistan will regret that 'however'.

 

[rockstar08]

Hi,

The thing is that there is no way possible that a chinook can fly into abbotabad after a supposed fire fight---take off and then fly and cross over to afghanistan---leaving on the ground a massive helicopter on fire---.

This is technically impossible---. Pakistan is a poor country---but it is no banana republic---.

maybe they send Captain America to fly the Helicopter

 

[Zulfiqar.xvi]

Seymour Hersh article's on 2 May incident have once again triggered a new debate. Where it has given another perspective of how things happened, it has raised very serious questions on loyalty of military top brass. Hersh levelled very serious charges which include 1. Retd ISI officer informed US of OBL's hideout in Abbotabad. 2) Gen Kayani, ex COAS and Gen Ahmed Shuja Pasha ex DG ISI were party to US in a plan to take out OBL. 3) Maj Doc Amir Aziz was looking after OBL and provided DNA sample.
Now to visualise accurately how things must have happened it is imperative to see why things happened. A short study of Pak US relations that prevailed before 2 May incident would help us reaching the pertinent conclusions. Chronology of major events in 2011 is given in succeeding para.
CIA station Chief Raymond Davis was arrested in Pak on 27 Jan 11 on charge of killing 2 Pakistani citizens. He was released on 16 March 11 after a shady deal of Blood Money. Reportedly youngsters Raymond Davis killed worked for ISI who had discovered certain facts about his activities and were required to be silenced forever. So despite serious consequences he had to kill them. In this episode CIA had a feeling that it was largely crafted by Pak security agencies. Very next day on 17 March, US vented out it anger through a lethal drone strike in Dattakhel, North Waziristan targeting a pro Pak Tribal Jirga killing all 40 tribal elders, creating serious problems for Pak. This stirred up an anger in Pak circles. Resultantly 18 March 11's newspapers were loaded with statements / Press release from PM, COAS and FO condemning this barbaric act. DG ISI was sent to US to convey a strong message and to renegotiate on future intelligence cooperation. Pak side tabled 4x major issues. These included an end to CIA operations in Pakistan that are not known to the ISI, the U.S. vacating Shamsi air base in Balochistan from where drone attacks are reportedly launched, reduction in the frequency of drone strikes, and that future intelligence cooperation be based on written agreements. Panetta was told that the Davis episode and resulting public outcry against American intelligence operations in Pakistan made it imperative for Pakistani agencies to cooperate with the U.S. within a clearly defined framework, one that is legally defensible. These talks actually remained fruitless and concluded in a shouting match b/w Pasha and Panetta.
Shuja Pasha came back and hunt against CIA operatives started. It is on record that 150 CIA operatives were deported in one day. Following this very next day US embassy's issued a threat alert warning US citizens to avoid traveling and remain where they are in wake of some terror threats. This all was happening in April 2011. Ultimately 2 May happened.
Now this background reflects that US top notch was not in good terms with Pak top brass. Pak US relations were at its worst. Both agencies had developed a confrontation and CIA operations inside Pak were at verge of its culmination. US top notch direly needed to do something which could put requisite pressure on Pak Top brass. So OBL drama was planned and executed which brought humiliation to Pak Army in general and COAS & DG ISI in particular. Stature of Pak as a state was lowered and it was at US's mercy to be labeled as a state which had hosted world's most wanted man. So US was back in better bargaining position.
In this all this one can clearly read man to man ties between US top notch and Pak top brass. In no way one can conclude that Ex COAS and DG ISI had joined hand with US in bringing humiliation to Pak.

 

[graphican]

Source: Indian Media. Warning, bull crap expected!

 

[Amaa'n]

samjh ye nhn ati ke duniya akhir chahti kiya hai.....
when US claims Pakistan had no hand in it, and they knew nothing of this, we are tagged as 'incompetent, pathetic lazy generals & the useless agency"
and when the news is out that We had a big role in all this we are tagged as "sold out generals, traitors " & Allah knows whatelse.....

 

[Irfan Baloch]

@Irfan Baloch
Sir you are authority on these subjects and hence can answer the question.
Officially establishment in Pakistan still maintains the line that OBL's presence was not known, but the fact remains someone in power knew all along. Coalition forces tried many hard and long years of hunt in Pak-Af border, in vain, to get OBL. Finally they must have known one thing that if OBL is hiding, Taliban in no position to support him, if the bounty on his head can be increased, chances are they'll find him.
With budget of billions of dollars for WoT, 25 million in just peanuts, considering the trophy value it had in American public minds.
Is there, therefore a fair chance that someone actually spilled the beans about OBL, as the report suggests.
& maybe the reward was much higher than what is told?
Also strategically (in terms of counter terrorism operations), it isn't a bad ploy to try and purchase information around a target. It is far more economical and effective intelligence source (as it is pin pointed) that other conventional methods.

dear

its a very complex story, choose what makes sense to you but you will find contradiction to whatever makes sense to you.
what ever side you pick there is a contradiction. there is a contradiction and gaps in official Pakistani version, there is contradiction and controversy in entire operation from American point of view and then there are also gaps in how different commentators across the world made their opinion due to their allegiance to their country or hostilities towards the other country.

you are raising some moral questions in your post and it sadly doesn't apply in the world of Espionage. I will quote Gen Chishti who said in his interview with a UK channel "if you can't ride two horses at once you should get out of the circus"

that all said, my belief, let me rephrase is... my recent analysis is .. our military knew about the raid, the planning was mutual, the appearance of Chinook to recover the excess troops after black hawk was down is just an evidence that Pakistanis knew (the Chinook was not cloaked / stealthy, it is just mentioned a s passing reference).

my original observation about Dr Afridi is proven, he was a false flag, and discarded by CIA (actually ISI was informed about him otherwise he would have fled as well).
I am confused about Saudi connection here and the fact that we were really holding OBL prisoner and wanted some logistic agreement to hand him over (something Gen Chistshi touched in his interview Hard talk). the latest revelation by the American investigative journalists / author also mentions a Pakistani town Terbela where according to my original sources in the area reported Pakistani Huey helicopter leading the American copters there after completing the mission. Terbela. which colludes with the story that it was in fact Terbela where the SEALS finalised their mission rehearsals.

by the way, best man to answer is Gen Kyani/ Pasha and I doubt they will say anything so lets keep cooking stories I am on the fence here and have no hardcore side.

It's obvious that ISI was giving that filthy swine shit a shelter

Smart man

it is NOT OBVIOUS

its a suggestion/ allegation made by some American analysts and also suggested by former ISIS cheif Gen Chishti in his interview with BBC

. But the arrangement of ISI officials handing out info to CIA can't be a formal agreement. Maybe some retired general sold the info out.

I assume you didnt think before coming with this this idea. No retired general would have had that information.
let me help you to understand. Gen Petraeus (now retired) has no clue about what is happening in the US intelligence world, he is out of the loop. and No Pakistani general retired during that timeline who would have had this information and had decided to make some money

Ofc the doctor was our tactical person on the ground.

I agree on that one, he was a temporary asset and CIA did this.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

Osama "invalid old man"...I guess he didn't age well (1957).
BTW Hillary Clinton was born 10 years before him (1947).
Oh and Seymour Hersh (1937)

 

[AnnoyingOrange]

Adding couple of more resources:

Down the rabbit hole: Bin Laden raid was staged after extensive Pakistan-US negotiations - report — RT USA
Pakistanis Knew Where Osama Bin Laden Was, U.S. Sources Say - NBC News
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/23/magazine/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden.html?_r=0

Now what's your opinion dear @Spring Onion

 

[xyxmt]

what is the problem in it anyway

 

[AnnoyingOrange]

Well I said it long back.... the very next day Bin laden was killed..... that the old man was a pawn to be sacrificed at opportune moment...for an correct amount of money...

 

[Spring Onion]

Adding couple of more resources:

Down the rabbit hole: Bin Laden raid was staged after extensive Pakistan-US negotiations - report — RT USA
Pakistanis Knew Where Osama Bin Laden Was, U.S. Sources Say - NBC News
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/23/magazine/what-pakistan-knew-about-bin-laden.html?_r=0

Now what's your opinion dear @Spring Onion

What different thing you have given here ? Our opinion from start was that it was a joint venture where the Americans were given credit for obvious reasons

 

[Kolachi Punjabi]

Indian publications are so sneaky, they're trying to make out like Pakistani generals are corrupt and greedy and sold OBL, when in actuality Pakistani top brass was unhappy with the extremists so revealed information to America and help them to execute OBL, Pakistan was the true ally, but america pinned the blame on pakistan, and lied about the the reality of the operation, telling the world malicioualy that pakistan decieved them.

 

[AnnoyingOrange]

What different thing you have given here ? Our opinion from start was that it was a joint venture where the Americans were given credit for obvious reasons

Well.... I am tempted to say "I told you so" long time back... when OBL was killed like that.... he was a perfect scapegoat...a perfect sacrificial lamb... and yes he made some Pakistani general a rich man.