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The Libtard onslaught The Gulf Arab Cultural onslaught and Indian Cultural onslaught on Pakistan

I haven't blamed you for Arab bashing. But I do need your answer on "We borrowed religion from them", in what context this statement stands and what does it mean? Practicing a common religion is not borrowing their ideologies.

Alrighty, let me put it bluntly, Islam is an Arabic religion. All others of us have borrowed it from them. Simple is that.
I mean, we pray 5 times a day in language we don't even understand. The only thing 'Persianised' about it is that instead of calling it Salat in Arabic we just call it Namaz in Persian.

I didn't bash Arabs, I just bashed 'ourselves'.
And no, I am not a fan of Iran or Persia, neither modern day nor older one. Infact, my views about Iran are much harsher than any Arabic country or even India.


And for Arab bashing, I demand evidence and facts of their misdoings in Pakistan. We as you highlighted (why its not highlit?) cannot blame anyone for our own weaknesses. I am against Arab bashing when it happens because you are rooting for Iranians (I don't hold very positive views on that state).

Pakistanis should own their identity and history, what is stopping them? Inferiority complex? Or the feeling that we are inferior?

Lack of nationalism.
 
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Alrighty, let me put it bluntly, Islam is an Arabic religion. All others of us have borrowed it from them. Simple is that.
I mean, we pray 5 times a day in language we don't even understand. The only thing 'Persianised' about it is that instead of calling it Salat in Arabic we just call it Namaz in Persian.

Would you mind and take it personal if I told you you are wrong?

Just try searching meaning of Salat ....... and may be you would realise its not just the five times ritual called namaz. That's why I said Arabs of today themselves are practicing a Persianised Islam.

I didn't bash Arabs, I just bashed 'ourselves'.
And no, I am not a fan of Iran or Persia, neither modern day nor older one. Infact, my views about Iran are much harsher than any Arabic country or even India.

Again I didn't blame you for being an Arab Basher. O bai yar ........ wo aik alag paragraph hy tum say uss ka koi laina daina nai hy :angry:.
 
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Would you mind and take it personal if I told you you are wrong?

Just try searching meaning of Salat ....... and may be you would realise its not just the five times ritual called namaz. That's why I said Arabs of today themselves are practicing a Persianised Islam.



Again I didn't blame you for being an Arab Basher. O bai yar ........ wo aik alag paragraph hy tum say uss ka koi laina daina nai hy :angry:.

Do you mind if I ask you a personal question? Are you Quranist? If not, what exactly is that Persianised Islam that you are talking about?
 
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Do you mind if I ask you a personal question? Are you Quranist? If not, what exactly is that Persianised Islam that you are talking about?

No I don't mind, shoot, say or ask anything I don't feel insecure, cause what I believe in holds answers to almost every blame thrown at it. To be clear on this, I am Quranist as much as it concerns me believing that it is the only divine message (within Islam) and all else is man made, and it is above all other so called religious texts, anything that contradicts Quran is not Islam. But If Quranist means some sect, then I don't associate nor recognise any sect in Islam. It's anti Islam.

Persianised Islam is what was constructed to make people leave and forget the true message, make them conservative, narrow minded, superstitious, capitalists, monarchs, dictators, clerics, and helpless subjugated slaves. To keep it brief, Islam is / was against oppression of humans, it clearly stated that it is threat to three types of people Kings (Monarchs), Clergy and Capitalists. You can see it for yourself .... why these three would stop fighting and why they won't try erasing anything that brings harm to their uninterrupted, unchallenged rule over people.
 
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Persianised Islam is what was constructed to make people leave and forget the true message, make them conservative, narrow minded, superstitious, capitalists, monarchs, dictators, clerics, and helpless subjugated slaves. To keep it brief, Islam is / was against oppression of humans, it clearly stated that it is threat to three types of people Kings (Monarchs), Clergy and Capitalists. You can see it for yourself .... why these three would stop fighting and why they won't try erasing anything that brings harm to their uninterrupted, unchallenged rule over people

Interesting take on the subject.

I know that Allama Iqbal referred to this as Arab Imperialism which began with Banu Umayya and well into Banu Abbas.

Many times we forget that the monarchic tendencies of these early usurpers like Muawiyah and Yazid were based on Roman and Persian systems.

Nothing could be farther from Islam.

Hence we see the Prophet Muhammad’s saws example of government being one of complete equality and justice in front of the law and the Khalifahs who succeeded him as being the first among equals, themselves not being immune to the law.

We have totally lost this concept of Islamic governance and it must be brought back. I have high hopes for PTI in sha Allah.
 
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We have totally lost this concept of Islamic governance and it must be brought back.

If you wish to bring back the true concept of Islamic governance, you will have to accept that Ameer Yazid was legitimate elected Ameer ul Momineen ....... go figure that out.

Banu Abbas was the ones who got infiltrated by Persians and they were the ones who helped destroy everything.
 
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This is what happens when you try to borrow your culture from India, religion from Arabs and Education system from west.

So, what's the cure?
1. Build your own Kingdom(already done mostly)
2. Make your own identity(carry on with the +ve cultural aspects and remove the -ves)

PS: I am a Libturd(kinda)

You Delusional Indian

Do you think Baluchis, Pashtuns, Kashmiris Pakistani northern areas have your culture ?

You don’t know anything about us Pakistanis, do you! Just stick to your Hindi and Urdu language you now trying copy

Remember where and who gave you Urdu, thousand years of slaverry and Taj Mahal

Leave the rest of us out of your Negroid DNA
 
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Well honestly speaking i think our problem is that we don't possess a coherent identity that we are comfortable with and can call our own. This is why we have these three groups that you mentioned, although each of these groups are a minority, they are vocal because the majority is just confused and willing to follow anyone who shouts the loudest (usually from these three mentioned groups).

Our identity issues are deep seated, and thus we are seeking an identity to fill in the void, and usually this is being done by looking at which direction the current wind is flowing and then taking that as a cue to what we should be doing. Perhaps this is a legacy of our colonial past, who knows, there's more than one reason for this.

People here have brought up Arabs and that we Pakistanis try to be Arabs. I would disagree with this statement because I have met so many Arabs in my life from what many would call "religious" or "conservative" countries, for example Yemen and Saudi Arabia. Every Yemeni and Saudi I have met is perfectly comfortable with their pre-Islamic as well as Islamic past and have reconciled the two. There is no conflict there because what contradicted Islam was abandoned but everything else was retained and adapted to Islam.

Certainly, it is much easier for an Arab to reconcile his pre-Islamic past with his current identity as a Arab Muslim because Islam's origins are within the Arab people and all of the major Prophets (AS) were Semetic. Islam was already intertwined within Arab culture from the outset. The Quran to this day is recited in the same Arabic as it was presented in to our beloved Prophet (SAW) by the angel Gabriel (AS).

But despite this, I have witnessed non-Gulf Arabs (who are in reality Arabized people, like in the Levant and North African regions) who have also reconciled their pre-Isamic pasts with their Isamic identity. Egyptians, even the religious ones I have met, are not necessarily ashamed of the Pharoahs although it goes without saying that Pharoah is depicted as a arrogant ruler within Islamic scriptures (and Christian as well as Jewish scripture). They simply accept it as their past and some are even proud that a great civilization as that of the Pharaoh's existed in their homeland and gives them an identity that most countries today cannot boast about similar historical pasts.

Similarly with Iran, despite its image as a "Islamist" "extremist" theocratic state that (mostly) western media like to portray, some pre-Islamic traditions are still maintained, with strong Shia overtones. Essentially a new cohesive and uniquely Iranian identity has formed. Ancient Persia is considered as the origin of the modern Iranian nation, and Islam, rather than something that must replace the Iranian historical identity, has only supplemented that previous identity.

Us Pakistanis on the other hand, we have made it very awkward for ourselves by totally rejecting our pre-Islamic past to the point where we must now literally copy-paste other peoples identities to film in the void. But a national identity isn't something that you can just copy-paste because at most you will only be able to do that with the superficial aspects, like clothing and some words and phrases here and there, as those Pakistanis who imitate Arabs do, eventhough what they are imitating from the Arabs are just some pre-Islamic Arab traditions that the Arabs retained.

In the same line we have Pakistani Liberals who wish to imitate the west, but unlike the Arab-wannabe Pakistanis, the former group wishes to imitate an empty Western "culture", which cannot even be labeled a culture in the original sense of that word because it is extremely generic (due to its secular nature), consumer based and globalized. However both Pakistani Liberals and Pakistani Arab-wannabe's have a fundamental thing in common; they adamantly believe that by copying the superficial aspects of another people one will become just like them. This is an extremely delusional thought process. By this definition a Korean cosplaying as a Bedouin has become an Arab as long as he wears their clothes and learns a few phrases of Arabic. Forget the fact that Arabs are a unique people with a strong identity rooted in a particular history of a particular ethnic group from a particular geographic location.

The material expressions of a people's cultural traditions are symbols of the spiritual aspects of their particular history, and Arab history is not simply just Islamic/religion related. By copying the material expressions of another people one does not become that people.

No other Muslim people reduce their history/identity to religion alone, except us Pakistanis; not the Arabs, not the Iranians, not the Bangalis, not the Indonesians, not the Malays, not the Turks, etc.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with this because Allah (swta) Himself created us in this manner. As He states in the Quran:

"Oh mankind, We have created you all male and female and have made you nations and tribes so that you would recognize each other. The most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most pious of you. God is All-knowing and All-aware."- 49:13

"And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Lo! herein indeed are signs for men of knowledge."- 30:22

Language falls under cultural traditions, and colour falls under biological diversity, and Islam recognizes both as signs of The Creator, as He Himself states so in the Quran.

Unfortunately there are those even among Muslims who are following the current globalist trend and who say that we must overcome these unique identities, if not, outright destroy them, because they are "haram", eventhough this never occurred to anyone within Islam's more-than-1400 years history. Only now with the push for global consumerism where all organic traditional identities are under assault in order to replace them with man-made consumer identity, do we see this phenomenon of Muslims declaring organic identities as "divisive", "racist" etc. What Allah has created must be "overcome", and we must all become "one and the same".

For us Pakistanis I believe we can reconcile aspects of our pre-Islamic past with Islam as both are necessary to form a coherent National identity, and as the example of other Muslim peoples has proven (Gulf Arabs and Iranians in particular as these are not secular people by their nature).

@Nilgiri @Psychic @Metanoia @LeGenD @Indus Pakistan @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan
Most of our "pre-Islamic" practices are from Pre-Islamic cultures --- How do you reconcile a thing which by nature is anti-Islam with Islam?

Those pre-Islamic and post-Islamic practices which according to some are a part of our beautiful culture which musn't be abandoned at all in favor of "foreign" "Arab religion"---the problem is that many of these practices which are still carried out are against the very teachings of Islam, for example;
  • Karo kari
  • Vani
  • Swara
  • Mujras on weddings
  • alcohol and hash on weddings
  • profuse expenditure on weddings
  • Not letting the girl see the groom or have any say in marriage
  • Grave worshiping (Many things copied from Hindu customs like music also included)
  • Dancing on shrines
  • Giving white sheet to see blood stains for virginity check (Old Rajput custom)
  • Western democratic model
  • Western justice system
Above are a few of the glorious pre-Islamic and post-British practices which the people of Pakistan still follow.

I do not see Pakistanis dressing like Arabs, abandoning their cuisine, dress, festivals and language --- so what's all this fuss about?
Most people are dressed in shalwar-kameez or western style clothing here (no one dresses like Arabs) even most of our religious scholars dress in shalwar-kameez, most people eat traditional food roti, naan, saalan, biryani etc and burgers and pizzas (no one even knows how Arabian cuisine looks like), people speak Urdu, regional languages or English (hardly a few people speak Arabic), Weddings, dance, music, sports (Kabaddi, Kushti, gulli danda, tent pegging etc) are all local--- A few clans identify their roots as Arabs but most don't and proudly state their clans and ancestors who converted to Islam... You know what the problem is, the only thing which hurts people here is us following an "Arab religion" and "Arab ProphetSW" , they want us to become hyper-nationalists or secular liberal---both of which is against Islam.

I will tell you what's all this fuss is about--- whenever someone talks about having an Islamic system of governance instead of the current Western system, people start accusing us of aping the Arabs...Whenever someone talks about replacing 1860 era rotten judicial system with shariat and Islamic justice, we are accused of aping the Arabs---Whenever some one talks about behaving like Muslim brothers instead of fighting among-st ourselves...

You know that Islam is the only force which binds the people of Pakistan---The Baloch rebels used to say, that they are Muslims for 1400 years, Pakistanis for 40 years but Baloch for 4000 years , that's why they fight for Baloch cause--- Now many people want us to abandon the only identity which binds the various ethnicities together and they shamelessly label that identity as Arab and foreign when in truth, it was the basis for the formation of this country.

Talking about Kashmir, Palestine, Rohingya etc doesn't make one an Arab---Many non-Muslims also speak against the policies and the state of Israel---but if a Pakistani speaks against Israel, we become "wanna-be Arabs".

The Arabs themselves abandoned their practices from the period of Jahiliya and adopted some completely new and novel practices---but, we can't abandon any of our pre-Islamic(Hindu) practices because if we do, we will be declared as Arab slaves.

I mean, we pray 5 times a day in language we don't even understand
That's your fault.

Either learn Arabic or read a translation to understand what it means---
Alrighty, let me put it bluntly, Islam is an Arabic religion
You don't even know how much Islam was opposed ---BY THE ARABS THEMSELVES SINCE IT CONTRADICTED THEIR CUSTOMS, TRADITIONS AND CULTURE.

ProphetSW's clan Banu Hashim was besieged by all of the other ARABS...People who accepted Islam were tortured by their own relatives and wars were raged against Islam by Arabs themselves when people like Bilal and Salman who were foriegners fought the anti-Islam Arabs.

Which religion do you want us to follow then? Are you going to invent a Pakistani religion for fellow Pakistanis to follow?

nice attempt at revisionism

6 March 2001, The Times quoted Mullah Mohammed Omar as stating, "Muslims should be proud of smashing idols. It has given praise to Allah that we have destroyed them."[44] During a 13 March interview for Japan's Mainichi Shimbun, Afghan Foreign Minister Wakil Ahmad Mutawakel stated that the destruction was anything but a retaliation against the international community for economic sanctions: "We are destroying the statues in accordance with Islamic law and it is purely a religious issue."

On 18 March 2001, The New York Times reported that a Taliban envoy said the Islamic government made its decision in a rage after a foreign delegation offered money to preserve the ancient works. The report also added, however, that other reports "have said the religious leaders were debating the move for months, and ultimately decided that the statues were idolatrous and should be obliterated".[45]
 
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Most of our "pre-Islamic" practices are from Hindu Rajput codes --- How do you reconcile a thing which by nature is anti-Islam with Islam?

Those pre-Islamic and post-Islamic practices which according to some are a part of our beautiful culture which musn't be abandoned at all in favor of "foreign" "Arab religion"---the problem is that many of these practices which are still carried out are against the very teachings of Islam, for example;
  • Karo kari
  • Vani
  • Swara
  • Mujras on weddings
  • alcohol and hash on weddings
  • profuse expenditure on weddings
  • Not letting the girl see the groom or have any say in marriage
  • Grave worshiping (Many things copied from Hindu customs like music also included)
  • Dancing on shrines
  • Giving white sheet to see blood stains for virginity check (Old Hindu Rajput custom)
  • Western democratic model
  • Western justice system
Above are a few of the glorious pre-Islamic and post-British practices which the people of Pakistan still follow.

I do not see Pakistanis dressing like Arabs, abandoning their cuisine, dress, festivals and language --- so what's all this fuss about?
Most people are dressed in shalwar-kameez or western style clothing here (no one dresses like Arabs) even most of our religious scholars dress in shalwar-kameez, most people eat traditional food roti, naan, saalan, biryani etc and burgers and pizzas (no one even knows how Arabian cuisine looks like), people speak Urdu, regional languages or English (hardly a few people speak Arabic), Weddings, dance, music, sports (Kabaddi, Kushti, gulli danda, tent pegging etc) are all local--- A few clans identify their roots as Arabs but most don't and proudly state their clans and ancestors who converted to Islam... You know what the problem is, the only thing which hurts people here is us following an "Arab religion" and "Arab ProphetSW" , they want us to become hyper-nationalists or secular liberal---both of which is against Islam.

I will tell you what's all this fuss is about--- whenever someone talks about having an Islamic system of governance instead of the current Western system, people start accusing us of aping the Arabs...Whenever someone talks about replacing 1860 era rotten judicial system with shariat and Islamic justice, we are accused of aping the Arabs---Whenever some one talks about behaving like Muslim brothers instead of fighting among-st ourselves...

You know that Islam is the only force which binds the people of Pakistan---The Baloch rebels used to say, that they are Muslims for 1400 years, Pakistanis for 40 years but Baloch for 4000 years , that's why they fight for Baloch cause--- Now many people want us to abandon the only identity which binds the various ethnicities together and they shamelessly label that identity as Arab and foreign when in truth, it was the basis for the formation of this country.

Talking about Kashmir, Palestine, Rohingya etc doesn't make one an Arab---Many non-Muslims also speak against the policies and the state of Israel---but if a Pakistani speaks against Israel, we become "wanna-be Arabs".

The Arabs themselves abandoned their practices from the period of Jahiliya and adopted some completely new and novel practices---but, we can't abandon any of our pre-Islamic(Hindu) practices because if we do, we will be declared as Arab slaves.


That's your fault.

Either learn Arabic or read a translation to understand what it means---

You don't even know how much Islam was opposed ---BY THE ARABS THEMSELVES SINCE IT CONTRADICTED THEIR CUSTOMS, TRADITIONS AND CULTURE.

ProphetSW's clan Banu Hashim was besieged by all of the other ARABS...People who accepted Islam were tortured by their own relatives and wars were raged against Islam by Arabs themselves when people like Bilal and Salman who were foriegners fought the anti-Islam Arabs.

Which religion do you want us to follow then? Are you going to invent a Pakistani religion for fellow Pakistanis to follow?



As a Rajput, I’m very offended by what you wrote.

Even before Islam, we were very different in religion to Hindus of today.

At most the practices stated are done because of pre-partition proximity and borrowing, not necessarily some integral part of our culture.
 
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If you wish to bring back the true concept of Islamic governance, you will have to accept that Ameer Yazid was legitimate elected Ameer ul Momineen
The true concept of Islamic governance is in the Khilafat-e-Rashida model. Not in ammer Yazeed model who was a monarch.
 

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Not in ammer Yazeed model who was a monarch.

You misunderstood my comment. Ameer Yazeed wasn't a monarch. Continuing discussion beyond this point is at your own discretion ...... not many have the courage to accept the facts as they were.
 
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