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The lasting lesson of 1962

Chinis just got lucky that time at few battle fields. Like Army Chief just said there will be bloodshed and we will bleed them spurt and faster they could ever imagine. They should keep Chola Incident in their minds as well.
China was at one of the weakest point of its history in 1962 ! Your army chief says a lot of things , does it mean they all are ground realities ? :azn: Seriously , please stop mocking yourself by bringing so called Chola accident , why didn't India just launched a blitzkrieg and capture disputed territories in 1967 if the Chinese were so scared and retreating ( Source : Official BR history :rofl: ) ? :lol:
 
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But one last chance, If China again want to attack India, Do it before 2015... There's a hell a lot of things coming into Indian Inventory. And India keeps improving its diplomacy with World and East Asian countries(Tiny Chinese neighbours!).

You seem to have forgotten that China's military technology is progressing faster than India's. Time favors China, not India.

Chinese J-20 Mighty Dragons will be ready by 2018.

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J-20 Mighty Dragon is a "genuine Very Low Observable design" except for round engine nozzles, which can be fixed.

The Chengdu J-20: Peace in Our Time?

"This study has therefore established through Physical Optics simulation across nine radio-frequency bands, that no fundamental obstacles exist in the shaping design of the J-20 prototype precluding its development into a genuine Very Low Observable design.

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Above: L-band RCS, below X-band RCS head on, both in PCSR format (M.J. Pelosi).

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Engineers and Scientists who work in ‘stealth’ (AKA ‘Low Observable’) designs have a way for explaining it to lay people: ‘Stealth’ is achieved by Shaping, Shaping, Shaping and Materials (Denys Overholser).

The F-22A is clearly well shaped for low observability above about 500 MHz, and from all important aspects. The J-20 has observed the ‘Shaping, Shaping, Shaping’ imperative, except for the axisymmetric nozzles, and some curvature of the sides that smears a strong, but very narrow specular return into something of a more observable fan. The X-35 mostly observed the ‘Shaping, Shaping, Shaping’ rule, but since then, to quote a colleague, ‘hideous lumps, bumps, humps and warts’ have appeared on the JSF to disrupt the shaping imperative, forcing excessive reliance on materials, which are at the rear-end of the path to ‘Low Observability’.

While discussing ‘rear-ends’, both the F-35 and the J-20 have large signature contributions from their jet nozzles. However, the difference is much like the proverbial ‘Ham Omelette’: the F-35 Pig is committed, but the J-20 Chicken is a participant. If the Chinese decide that rear sector Low Observability is tactically and strategically important, they are at the design stage where they can copy the F-22A nozzle design for the production configuration of the J-20."

[Note: Thank you to HouShanghai and 蓝胖 for the picture.]
 
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india should have learned a lesson not to mess with China.

Instead india forgot that lesson from 50 years ago, and believe it should have won 1962 if it was more prepared.

Now india is preparing itself for a rematch -- in the next few years certainly.

This time, China must attack with MBT from Pakistan and Nepal, to sweep across northern india and meet with Bangaldesh! 20 small indias is safer for the region than 1 big india.

NO one will support China except Pakistan, mark my words!

Another rapid development you will see in the coming years is the Turkey-Saudi-Pakistan-China Bloc
 
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But one last chance, If China again want to attack India, Do it before 2015... There's a hell a lot of things coming into Indian Inventory. And India keeps improving its diplomacy with World and East Asian countries(Tiny Chinese neighbours!).

I don't think India should invite a war with China today. I think you'll lose. You Indians underestimated Chinese military power in 1962 and I think you're making the same mistake today. As far as I can tell, China is ahead in its preparation for the next Sino-Indian war (see below).

China, as always, is very serious. I hope you Indians are equally prepared.

I ask that you indulge me this one time. I usually make only one reply post, but I would like to make two to fit all of the pictures.

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Preview of next Sino-Indian War

The Chinese combined-arms exercises on the Tibetan plateau show that China will hammer India with air power (J-10, J-11B, Su-27, and Su-30), attack helicopters, armor columns, and mobile heavy artillery (e.g. MLRS and howitzers) in the next Sino-Indian war.

Though it is not shown in the photographs, the opening salvo in the next Sino-Indian war will most likely start with a massive attack by Chinese cruise missiles on Indian military installations.

The Indians better say their prayers. They're not going to last very long against that much Chinese firepower.

Joint military drill of air and land forces held on west China's plateau area_XINHUANET
English.news.cn | 2011-10-22 08:37:23 | Editor: An

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A photo taken in this Autumn shows the army aviation troop taking part in a joint military drill of air and land forces held on west China's plateau area which reached an altitude of 4,500 meters above the sea level. (Xinhua/Liu Xing'an)

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A photo taken in this Autumn shows a Jian-10 fighter taking part in a joint military drill of air and land forces held on west China's plateau area which reached an altitude of 4,500 meters above the sea level. (Xinhua/Liu Xing'an)

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A photo taken in this Autumn shows a self-propelled weapon system of missile and gun taking part in a joint military drill of air and land forces held on west China's plateau area which reached an altitude of 4,500 meters above the sea level. (Xinhua/Liu Yinghua)

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A photo taken in this Autumn shows tanks taking part in a joint military drill of air and land forces held on west China's plateau area which reached an altitude of 4,500 meters above the sea level. (Xinhua/Liu Yinghua)

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A photo taken in this Autumn shows a Jian-10 fighter taking part in a joint military drill of air and land forces held on west China's plateau area which reached an altitude of 4,500 meters above the sea level. (Xinhua/Liu Yinghua)

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A photo taken in this Autumn shows the tanks during a joint military drill of air and land forces held on west China's plateau area which reached an altitude of 4,500 meters above the sea level. (Xinhua/Liu Yinghua)

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A photo taken in this Autumn shows a Jian-11 fighter taking off during a joint military drill of air and land forces held on west China's plateau area which reached an altitude of 4,500 meters above the sea level. (Xinhua/Liu Yinghua)

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A photo taken in this Autumn shows a Jian-11 fighter sending infrared decoy during a joint military drill of air and land forces held on west China's plateau area which reached an altitude of 4,500 meters above the sea level. (Xinhua/Liu Yinghua)

[Note: Thank you to Greyboy2 for the post.]
 
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Joint military drill of air and land forces held on west China's plateau area_XINHUANET

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A photo taken in this Autumn shows rocket guns taking part in a joint military drill of air and land forces held on west China's plateau area which reached an altitude of 4,500 meters above the sea level. (Xinhua/Zhao Haibo)

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A photo taken in this Autumn shows a self-propelled howitzer taking part in a joint military drill of air and land forces held on west China's plateau area which reached an altitude of 4,500 meters above the sea level. (Xinhua/Liu Xing'an)

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A photo taken in this Autumn shows a Jian-11 fighter taking part during a joint military drill of air and land forces held on west China's plateau area which reached an altitude of 4,500 meters above the sea level. (Xinhua/Liu Yinghua)

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A photo taken in this Autumn shows cannons taking part during a joint military drill of air and land forces held on west China's plateau area which reached an altitude of 4,500 meters above the sea level. (Xinhua/Zhao Haibo)

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A photo taken in this Autumn shows infantry taking part in a joint military drill of air and land forces held on west China's plateau area which reached an altitude of 4,500 meters above the sea level. (Xinhua/Liu Yinghua)

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A photo taken in this Autumn shows a soldier using a portable air-defence missile during a joint military drill of air and land forces held on west China's plateau area which reached an altitude of 4,500 meters above the sea level. (Xinhua/Liu Yinghua)

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A photo taken in this Autumn shows infantry with machine gun taking part in a joint military drill of air and land forces held on west China's plateau area which reached an altitude of 4,500 meters above the sea level. (Xinhua/Liu Yinghua)

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A photo taken in this Autumn shows a joint military drill of air and land forces held on west China's plateau area which reached an altitude of 4,500 meters above the sea level. (Xinhua/Liu Yinghua)

[Note: Thank you to Greyboy2 for the post.]
 
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The lasting lesson is when their economy collapses look out for them in the border
 
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The lasting lesson is when their economy collapses look out for them in the border

Look at the whole picture

I just spent 30 minutes explaining China's economy. I've copied my post into this thread to help others better understand China's economy.

patna_ke_presley said:
Martian you are a Chinese Guy, I tracked your posts and your profile picture from Xinhua. :lol: you mentioned everyone is facing crisis but why don't you talk about China. China export sector is facing crisis, increasing unemployment and causing unrest among people. Hang Seng is the worst performing Share market in whole of Asia. China Railways is asking for 1 Trillion Yuan Bailout.

In toto, every country in facing crisis and it is expected it will continue in 2012 also. So, no fairy tales here, accept the reality.

I am indeed a Taiwanese-American of Chinese ethnicity. I thought everyone knew that.

Anyway, your points about China may be true. However, you neglected to mention something very important: China's strengths. You cannot look at a minor fault and claim China's economy is falling apart. You must look at the whole picture. After I demolish your arguments, I will itemize China's formidable strengths.

1. I have no idea what you are talking about regarding China's export sector. China's exports are higher than ever. What's wrong with a 13.8% export growth in November (see below) when you are already the world's largest exporter?

Since China's export base is the world's largest, 13.8% additional growth beyond that base will yield a huge absolute number. China's exports are somewhere around $1.5 trillion (see Table 4: https://www.uschina.org/statistics/tradetable.html). 13.8% of $1.5 trillion will yield an annual growth of $207 billion. Seems like a healthy economy to me.

China export and import growth slows, surplus narrows | Reuters

"China export and import growth slows, surplus narrows
By Langi Chiang and Nick Edwards
BEIJING | Fri Dec 9, 2011 11:10pm EST

(Reuters) - Growth in Chinese exports and imports slowed in November, further evidence of the faltering demand abroad and at home that is pushing Beijing towards a more explicit pro-growth policy.

Customs data on Saturday showed exports expanded 13.8 percent year on year in November, the lowest in nine months, but it was the most sluggish performance since November 2009 when the traditionally volatile month of February is stripped out.
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The surplus turned out to be $14.5 billion, narrowing from October's $17.0 billion and the same level as in September."

2. Let's pretend that China is a company. When a company is making an average of $15 billion in profits every single month (see blue highlight above), that is a healthy company. Therefore, it is obvious that the Chinese economy is very healthy.

3. The Hang Seng is probably performing poorly because of the economic problems in the U.S. and Europe, which affects Chinese exporters. Also, the Chinese government popped the real estate bubble early; which is good for China's economy, but not for stock market investors.

In other words, I fail to see why you think the Hang Seng affects China's real economy of manufacturers. The stock market goes up and it comes down. Who cares? I only care about China's economic fundamentals (e.g. export growth, trade surplus, etc.).

4. China Railways wants more money. What's the problem? You can't build railroads for free. Massive infrastructure projects (like dams, railroads, or airports) require a huge upfront cost. China Railways is asking for more money because China is building a nationwide high-speed rail network that is supposed to be completed by 2020.

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Now, let's look at China's strengths.

1. China has $3.2 trillion in foreign exchange reserves. In other words, China has plenty of money to pay its bills for the next few decades. The story gets even better. China has invested its $3.2 trillion and it earns interest or invested returns.

2. China has been consistently profitable for the past decade (and longer). China earns roughly $200 billion in its annual current account balance (e.g. total trade in goods and services). In other words, $200 billion dollars in net profits is being injected into the Chinese economy every year. This is part of the reason that China's economy has boomed at 10% for thirty years.

The trade surpluses are still happening every month. The Chinese economic party will continue unabated. It might slow a bit to 8%, but that's because China's economy is now a monster $7 trillion. It's hard to grow at 10% when your economy is that large.

3. China's economy continues to increase in productivity. Alternatively, you can say that China's economy keeps becoming more efficient. How does China do that? Well, it's actually pretty simple. China produces and consumes hundreds of thousands of new CNC (Computer Numerically Controlled) machine tools each year. Of course Chinese factories become more productive with an annual massive influx of advanced CNC machine tools.

4. When China builds railways, it frees up the old rail network for exclusive use to ship freight. The freight rail network no longer encounters bottlenecks and it requires a lot less fuel to ship by rail than by trucks. Once again, China's economy becomes more efficient.

5. China has invested a lot of money into research and development. Improvement in Chinese technology has led to massive increases in production. For example, Chinese super-rice hybrid technology has led to a quadruple or quintuple increase in rice production (for the same hectare) in the last four decades. China's economy keeps booming because of technological advancement.

I could keep going on and on about the returns on China's investment in education, trade, licensing, joint ventures, shift into production of higher-value products (e.g. ARJ-21 regional jet planes, upcoming COMAC C919 mid-size jetliners, and building satellites for foreign customers), building more-efficient coal plants with 41% efficiency and shutting down less-efficient old ones with 25% efficiency, etc.

I've already spent 30 minutes answering his post and I would rather not spend another hour beating the issue to death. China probably has the strongest economy in the world right now. It is just silly to claim that China is facing serious economic problems.

The Chinese currency keeps appreciating relentlessly. That should tell you China's economy is growing stronger, not weaker.

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China's Yuan has appreciated over 30% during the last six years from 8.27 yuans to 6.31 yuans per U.S. dollar (see CNY, Chinese Yuan Exchange Rates Table - x-rates).
 
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Evil war mongering Indians should have left East Pakistan on it's own instead first letting the Bangladeshi refugees enter the country in such large numbers. And then fighting a meaningless war that served no good.
Btw they missed a big chance, didn't they mate of going one step closer to 'Akhand Bharat'.
Off topic : Do you seriously think that Bangladeshis would have accepted accession to India and not resisted after fighting for so long to gain independence from Pakistan ? :azn:

Forget Akhand Bharat ... Chanakya's long dead :flame:

And dont derail the thread by bringing off topic things ...

But one last chance, If China again want to attack India, Do it before 2015... There's a hell a lot of things coming into Indian Inventory. And India keeps improving its diplomacy with World and East Asian countries(Tiny Chinese neighbours!).

So better be fast than never...Whatsoever, there will be a rearrangement of demography on bothsides.

Remind me how many guns have you procured after the Bofors scandal ? :azn: then compare it with the Chinese technological advancements ... China is a self reliant nation , India isn't ... I am sure you are well aware of the speed of your defense deals and military equipment acquisitions ...

And yeah those are really tiny to be of any real use :tup:
 
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China was at one of the weakest point of its history in 1962 ! Your army chief says a lot of things , does it mean they all are ground realities ? :azn: Seriously , please stop mocking yourself by bringing so called Chola accident , why didn't India just launched a blitzkrieg and capture disputed territories in 1967 if the Chinese were so scared and retreating ( Source : Official BR history :rofl: ) ? :lol:

Your China worship is commendable but its blind to learn that they were acclimatizing their soldiers in Himalayas 2 years before 1962 war. You do not know how supplies were smuggled in to China via Calcutta ports (Yes you read it right) to prepare for offences against India, way before 1962. You are not even a Chinese but still telling me how poor China was in 1962 ? Are reading the same CCP propaganda books in Pakistan?

Do you understand the meaning of ceasefire and post war agreements. Even Pakistanis are sitting on a Peak since after Kargil war which was before with India, do you think we have no capability to hit that PA post with precision ammunition and recapture it? Don't mock your self. rolf rolf....lol...lol....crap :rolleyes:
 
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Do you understand the meaning of ceasefire and post war agreements. Even Pakistanis are sitting on a Peak since after Kargil war which was before with India, you think we have no capability to hit that PA post with precision ammunition and recapture it? Don't mock your self. rolf rolf....lol...lol....crap :rolleyes:

Post war agreement ? Which one ? :undecided:

Off topic again ... Seriously where does Kargil come into play in 1962 war ? ... But yes , I think you have no capability to deal with Chinese ... Simply NONE !

Dysarthria shall we call it then ? :lol:
 
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OK.....

Lets say there is a Chinese invasion of India tomorrow....

Can the IA hold them conventionally? Maybe, if not, there are non-conventional weapons that can be used to assure mutual destruction.

The same can be said of an Indian invasion of Pakistan. If Pakistan could not hold its lines, it might use atomic weapons.

War between atomic countries is no laughing matter. Conflict at this level can lead to unforeseen and horrible consequences.


Hoping for war, just so you can prove your *^%$ is bigger than your foes, is very immature and foolish.

I for one do not wish for war. If there is one between atomic capable countries, there is no limit the amount of death and destruction that could be unleashed.


Is Kashmir worth the deaths of millions? Is Tawang? Is any piece of ground? Its easy to talk big from a computer safely in your home.

Think carefully before you type. Use that grey matter between your ears.
 
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Do you understand the meaning of ceasefire and post war agreements. Even Pakistanis are sitting on a Peak since after Kargil war which was before with India, do you think we have no capability to hit that PA post with precision ammunition and recapture it? Don't mock your self. rolf rolf....lol...lol....crap :rolleyes:

Irrespective of your jibber jabber, reality is were you capable of doing it, you would have!!
 
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Let's be honest. Nehru was a cold and calculating strategist.

In 1962, India and China had the same GDP. Nehru figured the Chinese were pre-occupied with the Soviet military on their northern border after the Sino-Soviet split in 1960. Nehru also considered the American bases and allies in Japan and South Korea, which further tied down the PLA. Also, China needed troops stationed opposite Taiwan.

The truth is that Nehru was a cunning strategist. China had a disruptive revolution in 1949. China was further weakened in the 1950-1953 Korean War.

In the final analysis, Nehru was confident he could take on China and steal some land. India had been fully rested since independence in 1947 and Nehru thought India could win in an all-out war against China. It turned out the PLA is a far better fighting force than Nehru ever imagined.

India was the clear aggressor in 1962 and took a calculated gamble to steal land from a perceived weak China. You lost. You are still opportunistic invaders. We will always remember that.

Blah Blah blah ......If he was that strategist then he could have planed using IAF. Your fantasy story writing can impress teenagers and your thanks giving friends from Pakistan.

InA was guarding its legal boundaries. Your country was/is offensive land Mafia who not only invaded Tibet but India as well.
You can polish, twist and represent your same old propaganda you want but India has kept your super powerful army on its toes since then.

Why a nation would go that low to proliferate nuclear technology, team up with Pakistan against one and only poor India ?
Why your foot soldiers have now come down to this level that rather acting professionally they are entering border villages like thieves, bullying locals, paint stones with Chinese crap and run away? It all tell heaps about how powerful and capable your army is (pun intended) and how India is getting under your skin.


@Secure: By your logic If China is so powerful then why he is not reclaiming Arunachal pradesh?
 
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