BelligerentPacifist
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2007
- Messages
- 2,238
- Reaction score
- 0
aka Saqr aka Diving Falcon (from the time he was 15
)THE JF-17 II: INTRODUCING BVR & PRECISION STRIKE
- Thread starter Zarvan
- Start date
)
Quwa
Research Partner
- Joined
- May 16, 2006
- Messages
- 2,538
- Reaction score
- 47
- Country
- Location
Thanks! You know what, I'll put in addendums at the end of each article based on reader feedback here. I'll do it routinely, but I'll credit the person who puts in the analysis or source or tidbit, folks can PM me their names or Twitter or FB handles.
Lol!!!! What a time that was...I still remember the occasional Indian claiming that JF-17 will never fly.aka Saqr aka Diving Falcon (from the time he was 15
C130
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2014
- Messages
- 8,092
- Reaction score
- -1
- Country
- Location
I would like to see JF-17 in the air 2 ground role using the Chinese smart bombs, and I'm sure china would like to see that as well since it would perk the interests of others in buying JF-17 and Chinese weapons.
Also included and the payload list can be harms that can take out medium range sam radars close to border although not S300.EW and towed decoys are important if full stealth is not the case.Even F7s if can be upgraded with drfm packages can retire later than currently planned.
Zarvan
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2011
- Messages
- 54,470
- Reaction score
- 87
- Country
- Location
Side-Winder
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2013
- Messages
- 1,941
- Reaction score
- 19
- Country
- Location
Fine observation, I think this 75 Km for 3m2 was the figure when JFT was claimed to have 105 KM against 5m2. Which still makes sense. But ever since the range has been tweaked to 130 Km against 5 m2, i believe, the range against 3m2 should be around 100 km ATLEAST. this 75 Km claim is no longer valid.
@Zarvan
abdulbarijan
PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST
- Joined
- May 15, 2010
- Messages
- 1,251
- Reaction score
- 31
Actually --- He is right --- Let's look at the things chronologically because it'll make alot more sense that way ..
-In 2008 Janes reported an upgrade in KLJ-7 ( i.e the radar could detect 40 targets, track around 10 and engage 2 at the same time)
China's NRIET outlines fighter radar improvements - Jane's Defence Weekly
-Around 2009 official claims of range that were quoted in Jane's did indeed say 75 Km for 3m2 .. and if one takes this figure as standard RCS and puts it in the formula the range for 5m2 does indeed revolve around 85 Km ( much like RC-400 i.e the radar being offered in the french upgrade that was cancelled)
KLJ-7/10 Fire Control Radar (FCR) (China) - Jane's Avionics
-Then the brochure of the manufacturer surfaced which said 105 for 5m2 RCS ..
-Then the Kanwa interview with Javaid Ahmad (project director of JFT) mentioned 130 Km for 5m2 with the tracking capability increased to 16 aircrafts compared to 10 as reported by janes ... ( I think this was reported in the May of 2013)
-Remember up until and in this very interview, the existence of a new version of KLJ-7 (i.e V2) was not revealed ... I cant remember exactly. but think it took quite a few months until the reports started circulating around of a newer version of KLJ-7 in block II ...
Lastly, while there hasn't been another claim regarding the range of KLJ-7, lets not forget that there was a slide in the presentation of the chief designer (Dubai, Nov of 2013) which was putting an F-16 C/D model at 120 Km range ...
If we take the 130 Km for 5m2 RCS claim, and substitute the values, for the F-16 with a clean config RCS is reported around 1.2m2 and a loaded F-16 will probably be around an RCS of 3.5 m2 ... with this 3.5m2 consideration,the Approx range does indeed come out to be 118 odd Km's if we put the values in the formula ...
Whatever the case maybe, the bottom line is --- we have 3 credible sources putting the radar value at above a 100 Km's for 5m2 RCS ... and with the claims of the KLJ-7 offering a similar air to air capability as the APG-68 series ... the claim seems more and more legit ....
Last edited:
MastanKhan
PDF VETERAN
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2005
- Messages
- 21,269
- Reaction score
- 166
- Country
- Location
Hi,
Thanks for the information.
If you want to build a house---the most important part is the FOUNDATION-----bottom up that is how you build it---.
But when you are building a fighting force---you build it in parallels-----light---medium and heavy---to the enemy's strike force capability---.
This over here is not a wedding feast that you are preparing----that you can say----okay we have decided to keep the number of dishes less and the food simple---or maybe a one dish party---and that serves our purpose.
Our purpose is to fight a war----
You have to counter what the enemy has----you have to induct that something that projects power from top down---has a far reach---and has the potency to compete with the best of the enemy---. Because of your geography---you don't need to match the numbers---.
So---basically there were 2 parallel procurements needed to be made---actually 3---.
1. small and agile----bvr capable---aesa radar
2. air superiority---aesa----medium to heavy
3. deep strike capabilities----heavy---aesa---long legs---jamming capabilities---electronic warfare support aircraft
Again---out of all these aircraft----the 3 and 1 are the most important.
Why is 1 important----it gives you BVR capability---it is small---it ca evade radar upto some extent---it is inexpensive and gives a big punch for the price---.
Why is 3 the most important----because it is used for multi tasking----
Its most important role is its weight carrying capabilities and its long legs---the distance it can fly.
With its ability to fly farther and heavy load capability---it can deny access to the enemy naval flotilla to get close to the shores---.
As it can also launch BVR missiles---it is as potent against enemy aircraft at bvr as any other fighter aircraft----.
In the Growler mod---it can fly in support of other mission---or other aircraft can fly under the umbrella of its 'growler' type capabilities to perform their mission.
Apart from air to seas denial role---it can also be used as a strike aircraft to attack coastline targets deep down in the enemy territory----.
It also be used in the future for the upcoming air to surface babur cruise missile.
The thing is that Pakistan must keep the fight minus the nuclear weapons----. It must stop issuing nuclear threats and must start to look for heavy fighter aircraft that will do damage to the enemy.
Bottom line is that PAF currently needs 4 different types of aircraft TODAY-----.
1. F 16's BLK52-----
2. JF17's
3. JH7B--------40-50 aircraft
4. J11 D----SU35---Eurofighter----40-50
And then on top of it---it would need a 5th gen fighter in the future---which is around 10---15 years away---.
But the need for ta deep strike aircraft is of utmost importance.
Thanks for the information.
If you want to build a house---the most important part is the FOUNDATION-----bottom up that is how you build it---.
But when you are building a fighting force---you build it in parallels-----light---medium and heavy---to the enemy's strike force capability---.
This over here is not a wedding feast that you are preparing----that you can say----okay we have decided to keep the number of dishes less and the food simple---or maybe a one dish party---and that serves our purpose.
Our purpose is to fight a war----
You have to counter what the enemy has----you have to induct that something that projects power from top down---has a far reach---and has the potency to compete with the best of the enemy---. Because of your geography---you don't need to match the numbers---.
So---basically there were 2 parallel procurements needed to be made---actually 3---.
1. small and agile----bvr capable---aesa radar
2. air superiority---aesa----medium to heavy
3. deep strike capabilities----heavy---aesa---long legs---jamming capabilities---electronic warfare support aircraft
Again---out of all these aircraft----the 3 and 1 are the most important.
Why is 1 important----it gives you BVR capability---it is small---it ca evade radar upto some extent---it is inexpensive and gives a big punch for the price---.
Why is 3 the most important----because it is used for multi tasking----
Its most important role is its weight carrying capabilities and its long legs---the distance it can fly.
With its ability to fly farther and heavy load capability---it can deny access to the enemy naval flotilla to get close to the shores---.
As it can also launch BVR missiles---it is as potent against enemy aircraft at bvr as any other fighter aircraft----.
In the Growler mod---it can fly in support of other mission---or other aircraft can fly under the umbrella of its 'growler' type capabilities to perform their mission.
Apart from air to seas denial role---it can also be used as a strike aircraft to attack coastline targets deep down in the enemy territory----.
It also be used in the future for the upcoming air to surface babur cruise missile.
The thing is that Pakistan must keep the fight minus the nuclear weapons----. It must stop issuing nuclear threats and must start to look for heavy fighter aircraft that will do damage to the enemy.
Bottom line is that PAF currently needs 4 different types of aircraft TODAY-----.
1. F 16's BLK52-----
2. JF17's
3. JH7B--------40-50 aircraft
4. J11 D----SU35---Eurofighter----40-50
And then on top of it---it would need a 5th gen fighter in the future---which is around 10---15 years away---.
But the need for ta deep strike aircraft is of utmost importance.
Quwa
Research Partner
- Joined
- May 16, 2006
- Messages
- 2,538
- Reaction score
- 47
- Country
- Location
Thanks for the feedback guys, I am going to run an addendum to this article.
1. JF-17 is using Indra's RWR.
2. The actual range of the KLJ-7V1 was 75km for 3m2 and 105km for 5m2. However, the existence of KLJ-7V2 has been confirmed and its ranges run at 130km for 5m2 and +100km for 3m2. Is this correct?
@Bratva @aliyusuf @Side-Winder @abdulbarijan @Bilal. Can each of you PM me your respective Twitter/FB handles (or else I am going to use your Defence.pk profiles - one way or another I WILL credit you for your work, no escaping it
)
1. JF-17 is using Indra's RWR.
2. The actual range of the KLJ-7V1 was 75km for 3m2 and 105km for 5m2. However, the existence of KLJ-7V2 has been confirmed and its ranges run at 130km for 5m2 and +100km for 3m2. Is this correct?
@Bratva @aliyusuf @Side-Winder @abdulbarijan @Bilal. Can each of you PM me your respective Twitter/FB handles (or else I am going to use your Defence.pk profiles - one way or another I WILL credit you for your work, no escaping it
)
DESERT FIGHTER
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2010
- Messages
- 46,973
- Reaction score
- 95
- Country
- Location
Thanks Bratva. I wrote the article, I am Bilal Khan
As for the Indra, I was honestly going to include it, but I wanted to get the actual MODP document first (in my hands or hard-drive), it's just the way I operate.
You also forgot to mention MAR-Is ?
Quwa
Research Partner
- Joined
- May 16, 2006
- Messages
- 2,538
- Reaction score
- 47
- Country
- Location
That is coming in an upcoming article, it'll be about the PAF being able to integrate systems of its choice on JF-17.
Bratva
PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2010
- Messages
- 13,832
- Reaction score
- 67
- Country
- Location
Actually --- He is right --- Let's look at the things chronologically because it'll make alot more sense that way ..
-In 2008 Janes reported an upgrade in KLJ-7 ( i.e the radar could detect 40 targets, track around 10 and engage 2 at the same time)
China's NRIET outlines fighter radar improvements - Jane's Defence Weekly
-Around 2009 official claims of range that were quoted in Jane's did indeed say 75 Km for 3m2 .. and if one takes this figure as standard RCS and puts it in the formula the range for 5m2 does indeed revolve around 85 Km ( much like RC-400 i.e the radar being offered in the french upgrade that was cancelled)
KLJ-7/10 Fire Control Radar (FCR) (China) - Jane's Avionics
-Then the brochure of the manufacturer surfaced which said 105 for 5m2 RCS ..
-Then the Kanwa interview with Javaid Ahmad (project director of JFT) mentioned 130 Km for 5m2 with the tracking capability increased to 16 aircrafts compared to 10 as reported by janes ... ( I think this was reported in the May of 2013)
-Remember up until and in this very interview, the existence of a new version of KLJ-7 (i.e V2) was not revealed ... I cant remember exactly. but think it took quite a few months until the reports started circulating around of a newer version of KLJ-7 in block II ...
Lastly, while there hasn't been another claim regarding the range of KLJ-7, lets not forget that there was a slide in the presentation of the chief designer (Dubai, Nov of 2013) which was putting an F-16 C/D model at 120 Km range ...
If we take the 130 Km for 5m2 RCS claim, and substitute the values, for the F-16 with a clean config RCS is reported around 1.2m2 and a loaded F-16 will probably be around an RCS of 3.5 m2 ... with this 3.5m2 consideration,the Approx range does indeed come out to be 118 odd Km's if we put the values in the formula ...
Whatever the case maybe, the bottom line is --- we have 3 credible sources putting the radar value at above a 100 Km's for 5m2 RCS ... and with the claims of the KLJ-7 offering a similar air to air capability as the APG-68 series ... the claim seems more and more legit ....
Carrying on to this post. There is another figure JF-17 project team disclosed and Most probably it is for 3m^2 detection range
Mian Saifur Rehman
Tuesday, December 03, 2013
When The News posed a question what hope the people of Pakistan should pin on its pride co-production, JF-17 Thunder, the sources replied: “It is now one of the best and most reliable combat planes of the world as, apart from the G-8 versus G-9 factor, its radar range is 60 aeronautical miles (111.2 KM) which comes on a par with advanced international standards. Moreover, JF-17 is equipped with a far more advanced BVR system i.e. Beyond Visual Range system that gives it an edge over the enemy aircraft which it can hit from a considerable distance and move far away with full speed in a flash after firing the missile.
JF-17 production with China’s support - thenews.com.pk
or if I have to take a guess, this is the true range of KLJ V2 under normal circumstances. Only if it is operating under maximum capacity, it would be able to achieve 130-140 KM figure
Similar threads
- Article
