The J-20-engine discussion is over and other speculative topics ... to separate from the J-20-news !

[Asoka]

"There are resistance to China's rise on many fronts, the J-20 need to be operational as soon as possible with or without the WS-15."

"There are resistance to China's rise on many fronts"

This is to put it mildly. The war clouds are gathering over China and Russia, US neocons and neolibs believe they can beat China, in a conventional war, because they have air superiority. And if the war goes nuclear, they still could "win", because they have anti-ballistic missiles defense, that is deployed right at China and Russia's door steps.

It is up to China and Russia, to display credible deterrences, to conventional and nuclear aggression from the US.

A massive number of J-20, with its amazingly powerful WS-15 engines, will be the forefront of China's air power, in the next two decades.

"I agree with the last part, but under-powered engines really tax on the J-20's overall aerodynamic performance. You shouldn't just push out an incomplete product knowing that they'll be a lot of issues"

That is true. I agreed.

There are absolutely no indication that J-20 is equipped with a weak or underpowered engines from day one.

A very powerful engine is vital for Supersonic Cruise w/o AB, and Superior Supersonic Maneuverability.

The pilot's testimony strongly indicates J-20 has Superior Supersonic Maneuverability, therefore, Supersonic Cruise, as well.

No planes equipped with WS-10 or AL-31-FN engines were known to have Supersonic Cruise ability, nor the ability to climb vertically, in a sustained manner, w/o AB.

 

[Figaro]

"There are resistance to China's rise on many fronts, the J-20 need to be operational as soon as possible with or without the WS-15."

"There are resistance to China's rise on many fronts"

This is to put it mildly. The war clouds are gathering over China and Russia, US neocons and neolibs believe they can beat China, in a conventional war, because they have air superiority. And if the war goes nuclear, they still could "win", because they have anti-ballistic missiles defense, that is deployed right at China and Russia's door steps.

It is up to China and Russia, to display credible deterrences, to conventional and nuclear aggression from the US.

A massive number of J-20, with its amazingly powerful WS-15 engines, will be the forefront of China's air power, in the next two decades.

You are right in that the J-20 desperately needs powerful engines, at least in the class of F-119. I don't know why Chengdu decided to field obviously under-powered Al-31F's if the rumors are true ... it would impact the J-20 on virtually every front. Couldn't they just delay the J-20 if that were the case ... the jet engine is the most important part of any aircraft ...

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

You are right in that the J-20 desperately needs powerful engines, at least in the class of F-119. I don't know why Chengdu decided to field obviously under-powered Al-31F's if the rumors are true ... it would impact the J-20 on virtually every front. Couldn't they just delay the J-20 if that were the case ... the jet engine is the most important part of any aircraft ...

Those AL-31F rumors are false, since none of the Russian news ever mention that they supply the jet engine for the J-20, but they did mention the engine supply for the J-31 though.

 

[Figaro]

Those AL-31F rumors are false, since none of the Russian news ever mention that they supply the jet engine for the J-20, but they did mention the engine supply for the J-31 though.

I just can't comprehend why Chengdu would even contemplate putting under powered engines in their aircraft ... especially for a fighter focused on air superiority ... it just doesn't make sense.

 

[Asoka]

Those AL-31F rumors are false, since none of the Russian news ever mention that they supply the jet engine for the J-20, but they did mention the engine supply for the J-31 though.

Absolutely, J-20 was first publicly flown in Jan. 2011, while AL-31-FN-M2 was just announced on September 2012, almost 2 years after the first flight. And then nothing was heard after that.

Any normal person would think, that is impossible for J-20, to have equipped, with AL-31-FN-M2, on its first public flight.

I don't know, why this point, is not getting through, with some people.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

I just can't comprehend why Chengdu would even contemplate putting under powered engines in their aircraft ... especially for a fighter focused on air superiority ... it just doesn't make sense.

According to the captain of the J-20 formation during the parade, he did emphasize that "the J-20 is outstanding in the supersonic mode". This literally means that the J-20 is outstanding in the supercruise mode.

If you don't see the J-20 engine in the next 2-3 years having a major difference, then it is definitely using the WS-15 since now.

If the engine of the coming J-20B doesn't look so much different from the current one, then this means the J-20B will use an upgrade version of the WS-15.

Since the WS-15 is China's top priority, and China doesn't even want to show any footage or pic of its ground testing, you can see how classified it is.

Absolutely, J-20 was first publicly flown in Jan. 2011, while AL-31-FN-M2 was just announced on September 2012, almost 2 years after the first flight. And then nothing was heard after that.

Any normal person would think, that is impossible for J-20, to have equipped, with AL-31-FN-M2, on its first public flight.

I don't know, why this point, is not getting through, with some people.

If the coming J-20B engine looks radically different from the current J-20 engine, then we can assume that the current J-20 is definitely not using the WS-15.

Otherwise, it can imply that the J-20B will use the improved version of the WS-15, while the current J-20 is already equipped with the WS-15.

 

[Asoka]

You are right in that the J-20 desperately needs powerful engines, at least in the class of F-119. I don't know why Chengdu decided to field obviously under-powered Al-31F's if the rumors are true ... it would impact the J-20 on virtually every front. Couldn't they just delay the J-20 if that were the case ... the jet engine is the most important part of any aircraft ...

I absolutely agreed. There is no way for J-20 to have superior supersonic maneuverability if equipped with an underpowered engine. It must have an engine in the class of class of F-119.

Superior supersonic maneuverability and supersonic cruise, are two biggest reasons that 5-Gen. fighters will dominate the sky.

Stealth can be countered with IRST, and anti-stealth radars that are distributed, with one transmitters and many receivers located in multiple areas.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

I absolutely agreed. There is no way for J-20 to have superior supersonic maneuverability if equipped with an underpowered engine. It must have an engine in the class of class of F-119.

Superior supersonic maneuverability and supersonic cruise, are two biggest reasons that 5-Gen. fighters will dominate the sky.

Stealth can be countered with IRST, and anti-stealth radars that are distributed, with one transmitters and many receivers located in multiple areas.

The J-20 is heavier than the F-22, it will still be underpowered with a F119 class jet engine.

BTW, if the coming J-20B engine doesn't look radically different, then we can pretty much assume the current one is already the legendary WS-15, while the J-20B one is the improved version.

 

[sinait]

A better engine for the J-20 can wait though it wouldn't be for long.
There are resistance to China's rise on many fronts, the J-20 need to be operational as soon as possible with or without the WS-15.
That's exactly my point : China cannot wait and must incorporate the WS-15 as soon as possible. Something as vital as an aircraft engine (the heart or core) should definitely not be imported ... especially considering Russia is your main supplier. That's exactly my point : China cannot wait and must incorporate the WS-15 as soon as possible. Something as vital as an aircraft engine (the heart or core) should definitely not be imported ... especially considering Russia is your main supplier. I agree with the last part, but under-powered engines really tax on the J-20's overall aerodynamic performance. You shouldn't just push out an incomplete product knowing that they'll be a lot of issues; look at the German "wunderwaffes" in WWII.

That's why domestically produced components are so important. Especially something as vital as a jet engine for a fifth generation fighter. And Russia is often times an unreliable partner too ...

China had always made do with what they have and try to import what they lack, or else there wouldn't be any J-10 or J-11. Then they will try to indigenize all parts to reduce cost and secure against future embargoes, also to progress technologically.
I believe the emphasis should be on getting the J-20 combat capable and reliable instead of being the best that it can be, even if it means using an imported engine. From that video, it claims J-20 is already using a local made engine, and I think it is not likely to be the WS-15.
For me, I think any super additions can wait until the next version.
This obsession for China to always achieve in a hurry is unhealthy.
It will come, but it needs time, time that is super fast when compared to its peers.
.

 

[Figaro]

China had always made do with what they have and try to import what they lack, or else there wouldn't be any J-10 or J-11. Then they will try to indigenize all parts to reduce cost and secure against future embargoes, also to progress technologically.
I believe the emphasis should be on getting the J-20 combat capable and reliable instead of being the best that it can be, even if it means using an imported engine. From that video, it claims J-20 is already using a local made engine, and I think it is not likely to be the WS-15.
For me, I think any super additions can wait until the next version.
This obsession for China to always achieve in a hurry is unhealthy.
It will come, but it needs time, time that is super fast when compared to its peers.
.

I think any super additions can wait until the next version
A powerful engine should not be a "super addition" but a pre-requisite to a fifth generation stealth fighter. I'd venture out to say that the engine of the J-20 makes or breaks the entire platform ... that's why many of us care about whether it is using a powerful domestic variant or an under-powered Russian import. To put it in simpler terms, lets describe the J-20 as a track runner and the engine as its heart. How can the athlete expect to win a 400m race when his/her heart is afflicted with Coronary Artery Disease? An under-powered Russian AL-31F is exactly a heart disease. Simple.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

China had always made do with what they have and try to import what they lack, or else there wouldn't be any J-10 or J-11. Then they will try to indigenize all parts to reduce cost and secure against future embargoes, also to progress technologically.
I believe the emphasis should be on getting the J-20 combat capable and reliable instead of being the best that it can be, even if it means using an imported engine. From that video, it claims J-20 is already using a local made engine, and I think it is not likely to be the WS-15.
For me, I think any super additions can wait until the next version.
This obsession for China to always achieve in a hurry is unhealthy.
It will come, but it needs time, time that is super fast when compared to its peers.
.

China prefers to do things smoothly underground.

For example, China has already accomplished the ground test for the nuclear reactor of the supercarrier, and it is 1.7 times more powerful than the A4W reactor used by the Nimitz class. Many things just come out from nowhere, and we can never predict.

 

[sinait]

"There are resistance to China's rise on many fronts, the J-20 need to be operational as soon as possible with or without the WS-15."

"There are resistance to China's rise on many fronts"
This is to put it mildly. The war clouds are gathering over China and Russia, US neocons and neolibs believe they can beat China, in a conventional war, because they have air superiority. And if the war goes nuclear, they still could "win", because they have anti-ballistic missiles defense, that is deployed right at China and Russia's door steps.

I put it as mild as possible intentionally.
I rewrote it from "There are now many threats to China".
Haha
.

 

[Asoka]

I put it as mild as possible intentionally.
I rewrote it from "There are now many threats to China".
Haha
.

"From that video, it claims J-20 is already using a local made engine, and I think it is not likely to be the WS-15. "

There aren't many options for China to choose, to put a jet engine on J-20, back in 2010.

It could either be

1.) a WS-10
2.) AL-31
3.) WS-15

If (2) AL-31 is out, because it is not domestic, then you got (1) and (3) to pick from.

Take your pick.

I think any super additions can wait until the next version
A powerful engine should not be a "super addition" but a pre-requisite to a fifth generation stealth fighter. I'd venture out to say that the engine of the J-20 makes or breaks the entire platform ... that's why many of us care about whether it is using a powerful domestic variant or an under-powered Russian import. To put it in simpler terms, lets describe the J-20 as a track runner and the engine as its heart. How can the athlete expect to win a 400m race when his/her heart is afflicted with Coronary Artery Disease? An under-powered Russian AL-31F is exactly a heart disease. Simple.

"An under-powered Russian AL-31F is exactly a heart disease. Simple."

I agreed.

J-20 don't have a "heart disease" waiting to be fix. It got a strong heart right from the beginning.

I put it as mild as possible intentionally.
I rewrote it from "There are now many threats to China".
Haha
.

The security situation for China is far more dangerous than 10 years ago, when US is pre-occupied with the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Now, the war in Syria is going nowhere for the US. It's CIA trained and equipped ISIS terrorists are in danger of being wipe out. It is looking to start another war somewhere else, like Iran, N. Korea, and South China Sea, or East China Sea, or in the Taiwan Strait.

I am afraid those stupid neocons and neolibs will miscalculate and start a war with China AND Russia.

 

[Figaro]

"From that video, it claims J-20 is already using a local made engine, and I think it is not likely to be the WS-15. "

There aren't many options for China to choose, to put a jet engine on J-20, back in 2010.

It could either be

1.) a WS-10
2.) AL-31
3.) WS-15

If (2) AL-31 is out, because it is not domestic, then you got (1) and (3) to pick from.

Take your pick.



"An under-powered Russian AL-31F is exactly a heart disease. Simple."

I agreed.

J-20 don't have a "heart disease" waiting to be fix. It got a strong heart right from the beginning.



The security situation for China is far more dangerous than 10 years ago, when US is pre-occupied with the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Now, the war in Syria is going nowhere for the US. It's CIA trained and equipped ISIS terrorists are in danger of being wipe out. It is looking to start another war somewhere else, like Iran, N. Korea, and South China Sea, or East China Sea, or in the Taiwan Strait.

I am afraid those stupid neocons and neolibs will miscalculate and start a war with China AND Russia.

I remember Steve Bannon predicting war between the US and China within the next 10 years. Thankfully, he was axed this month. Now the Trump administration knows that the only war it can wage on China is one involving trade, which the US isn't even guaranteed of winning.

 

[Asoka]

I remember Steve Bannon predicting war between the US and China within the next 10 years. Thankfully, he was axed this month. Now the Trump administration knows that the only war it can wage on China is one involving trade, which the US isn't even guaranteed of winning.

While not all trade wars (sanctions) ended up as shooting wars, all shooting wars started first with economic sanctions (not trading with you anymore).