The intellectual roots of Asian anti-Westernism

[VCheng]

This book review presents a few good points for discussion, if anybody is interested, awake and/or paying attention:

from: Asia and the West: Never the twain | The Economist

Asia and the West
Never the twain
The intellectual roots of Asian anti-Westernism
Jul 28th 2012 | from the print edition

From the Ruins of Empire: The Revolt Against the West and the Remaking of Asia. By Pankaj Mishra. Allen Lane; 356 pages; £20. To be published in America in September by Farrar, Straus and Giroux; $27.

Rarely has the prestige of the West fallen lower in Asian eyes. Seemingly endless wars and the attendant abuses, financial crisis and economic malaise have made Europe and America look less like models to aspire to than dire examples to be shunned. In response, Asian elites are searching their own cultures and intellectual histories for inspiration.

As Pankaj Mishra, a prolific Indian writer, shows in this subtle, erudite and entertaining account of Asian intellectuals’ responses to the West, much the same was true over a century ago. He defines Asia broadly, as bordering with Europe at the Aegean Sea and Africa at the River Nile. A century ago, what he calls “an irreversible process of intellectual…decolonisation” was under way across this huge region. For Mr Mishra, and many Asians, the 20th century’s central events were the “intellectual and political awakening of Asia and its emergence from the ruins of both Asian and European empires”. China and India have shaken off foreign predators and become global powers. Japan has risen, fallen and risen again. It is commonplace to describe the current century as Asia’s.

Mr Mishra tells the story of this resurgence through the lives of a number of pivotal figures, as they grappled with the dilemma of how to replicate the West’s power while retaining their Asian “essence”. He pays most attention to two, both little known in the West. One, Jamal al-Din al-Afghani, was like most of them “neither an unthinking Westerniser, nor a devout traditionalist”. Despite his name, and despite a tomb in Kabul restored at America’s expense, al-Afghani was born in Persia in 1838. An itinerant Islamist activist, he also spent time in Egypt, India, Turkey and Russia, railing against the feebleness and injustices of Oriental despotisms and the immorality of Western imperialism, and trying to forge a Pan-Islamic movement. He had the ear of sultans and shahs.

The other main character is Liang Qichao, a leading Chinese intellectual in the twilight of the last imperial dynasty, the Qing, and the chaotic early years after it fell in 1911. Steeped in the old Confucian traditions and aghast at the weak new republic, he came to the conclusion that “the Chinese people must for now accept authoritarian rule; they cannot enjoy freedom”. Writing in 1903, however, he saw this as a temporary phenomenon. He would have been surprised to find China’s rulers today arguing much the same.

Two other developments would also have surprised these men. The first is how disastrously some of the syntheses of West and East worked out: from Mao’s and Pol Pot’s millenarian communism, to al-Qaeda’s brand of Islamist fundamentalism and Japan’s replication of the worst traits of Western imperialism.

Japan’s later aggression helps explain the other surprise: that in many ways the links between Asian thinkers look more tenuous now than they did a century ago. Then, men such as Liang, or Rabindranath Tagore from Bengal, would travel to Tokyo. They would dream of a pan-Asian response to the West, inspired by Japan’s example. China is now the coming Asian power, but it is not an intellectual hub of pan-Asianism, either in Communist orthodoxy or in efforts to revive Confucianism. And the Islam of al-Afghani’s ideological heirs has made little headway in non-Muslim countries.

There is one contemporary Asian phenomenon that, Mr Mishra notes, would seem far less surprising to the author’s subjects than to many present-day Westerners. That is the depth of anti-Western feeling. Millions, he writes, “derive profound gratification from the prospect of humiliating their former masters and overlords.” That prospect, however, masks what Mr Mishra concedes is an “immense intellectual failure”, because “no convincingly universalist response exists today to Western ideas of politics and economy”.

The ways of the West may not be working. Yet the alarming truth, Mr Mishra concludes, is that the East is on course to make many of the same mistakes that the West has made in its time.

from the print edition | Books and arts

 

[FaujHistorian]

Good review. Thanks for sharing.


Asians have multiple roots. Some are anti-West but others are very much pro-West.

This could not be more evident from the study of "The Tale of Two Koreas", almost on the same level as the original Tale of two cities by the greatest ever Dickens.

One Korea in the North fights tooth and nail against the West. Intellectually, and militarily. And as a result it is a cesspool of poverty, and dictatorship not too different from the Al-Assad goons in Syria. And yet it begs for oil and rice in return for not exploding nukies on the South. Something like MQM mafia's bhata khori but on global scale.

The other Korea in the South is vibrant, forward looking, dominating in key industries like shipping, refineries, cars, electronics, trucks and you name it. Within south there is an anti-Western strain, but it doesn't amount much. South Korea houses HUGE American military base too.


The rest of the Asia is also divided intellectually, in not too different ways.


I guess it is just human. You pick your role models and decide to live like them.

Pakistanis have decided to live like North Koreans and Middle Eastern tribals. And guess what we are living pretty much like North Koreans, or perhaps Somalians, or Yemenis or somewhere in-between. Haters of the West and yet beggers of the Western aid and visas.

This author's ramblings aside, modern day India has decided to live like South Koreans, and thus they seem to be on the path to prosperity even if the odds are stacked against them, all due to huge population and abject poverty.


peace.

 

[VCheng]

...............
Pakistanis have decided to live like North Koreans and Middle Easter tribals. And guess what we are living pretty much like North Koreans, or perhaps Somalians, or Yemenis or somewhere in-between. Haters of the West and yet beggers of the Western aid and visas......................

Did they really? I mean, when did Pakistanis ever have that authority to decide for themselves?

 

[FaujHistorian]

Did they really? I mean, when did Pakistanis ever have that authority to decide for themselves?

Well. I am not stating this in absolute terms. Just check out this forum, and see each poster decides about his/her posts and views.

I am sure you have met Pakistani-Americans who have strong views about the West, one way or the other.

If you come to Pakistan, you will find the same thing. Each one of us from General to Sipahi, from billionaire to Khawancha farosh, from old wife to high school boy, the teacher and doctors, students and farmers all have specific views be they pro-West or anti-West.

They all decide in their heads and in their hearts if they want to follow a behavior that is also being followed by North Korea or South.


Hope this helps you understand.

 

[VCheng]

Well. I am not stating this in absolute terms. Just check out this forum, and see each poster decides about his/her posts and views.

I am sure you have met Pakistani-Americans who have strong views about the West, one way or the other.

If you come to Pakistan, you will find the same thing. Each one of us from General to Sipahi, from billionaire to Khawancha farosh, from old wife to high school boy, the teacher and doctors, students and farmers all have specific views be they pro-West or anti-West.

They all decide in their heads and in their hearts if they want to follow a behavior that is also being followed by North Korea or South.


Hope this helps you understand.

Not really.

Social norms and sanctions go a long way in stifling those who wish to exercise independence of thought and/or action. Who wants to pay with their life for trying to follow behavior that they deem to be correct for them in modern day Pakistan?

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

Interesting article, but I disagree with many points that it brings forth. I have never heard much about Pan-Asianism, & I doubt that such an ideology would every present a threat to anyone. That's because the continent of Asia consists of a variety of different races completely different from each other. All of them have their own history, language, & culture. It would be next to impossible to unite such a diverse continent. Secondly, using Pan-Islamism against the West is another foolish idea. Islam isn't an Asian religion, or at least it doesn't claim to belong to a specific group. Islam, according to its own teachings is meant for all nations, thus, using Islam to cause division between the East & the West is the equivalent of mental retardation. In the Medieval ages, the wars between Muslims & Christians had more of a religious twist rather than a racial one.

I found this part of the article exceptionally weird: "millions, he writes, “derive profound gratification from the prospect of humiliating their former masters and overlords". Most of us do not desire to humiliate anyone. We understand that all nations from every corner of the earth have fought, conquered, & enslaved each other for a variety of reasons. That is simply how the world was in the past, there is no point in dwelling over it or crying rivers of blood & tears. However, I do agree that many people dislike the American government for all the wars that have taken place in the last decade. It's important to note that dislike for a government doesn't imply dislike for the people.

In my opinion, all nations should derive inspiration from their own cultures, revered historical figures, & from the efforts of other nations too. Adopting good values & traditions from others is a good thing & it will aid us in our progress. The free flow of ideas is crucial for progress & development. A culture that encourages creativity & provides people with the opportunity to implement or test their ideas is something that I feel is missing in some Eastern nations. This may be noticed by observing the products manufactured in Asian nations. Most of them tend to mimic Western products or only make slight improvements to them. Asian nations don't pay as much attention to research & development as Western nations do. Keep in mind that I am not talking about countries like China, Russia, or Japan while referring to R&D. Many factors synthesize to form a prosperous nation, some of those factors are; good leadership, strong economies, innovative industries, good moral values, knowledge & military might. There are other factors too, but these are some of the basics a country needs to focus on.

Keep in mind that the thirst for knowledge & the desire to progress must be for the sake of prosperity, success & benefiting not only the individual's own nation, but mankind as a whole. Helping other nations results in greater respect from the beneficiary, & all those observing international developments. These were some of my views on the subject. I typed this out in a hurry, so I apologize if some points seem to be jumbled up.

 

[VCheng]

This is just a book review, the book itself will be released next month.

 

[livingdead]

Interesting article, but I disagree with many points that it brings forth. I have never heard much about Pan-Asianism, & I doubt that such an ideology would every present a threat to anyone. That's because the continent of Asia consists of a variety of different races completely different from each other. All of them have their own history, language, & culture. It would be next to impossible to unite such a diverse continent. Secondly, using Pan-Islamism against the West is another foolish idea. Islam isn't an Asian religion, or at least it doesn't claim to belong to a specific group. Islam, according to its own teachings is meant for all nations, thus, using Islam to cause division between the East & the West is the equivalent of mental retardation. In the Medieval ages, the wars between Muslims & Christians had more of a religious twist rather than a racial one.

I found this part of the article exceptionally weird: "millions, he writes, “derive profound gratification from the prospect of humiliating their former masters and overlords". Most of us do not desire to humiliate anyone. We understand that all nations from every corner of the earth have fought, conquered, & enslaved each other for a variety of reasons. That is simply how the world was in the past, there is no point in dwelling over it or crying rivers of blood & tears. However, I do agree that many people dislike the American government for all the wars that have taken place in the last decade. It's important to note that dislike for a government doesn't imply dislike for the people.

In my opinion, all nations should derive inspiration from their own cultures, revered historical figures, & from the efforts of other nations too. Adopting good values & traditions from others is a good thing & it will aid us in our progress. The free flow of ideas is crucial for progress & development. A culture that encourages creativity & provides people with the opportunity to implement or test their ideas is something that I feel is missing in some Eastern nations. This may be noticed by observing the products manufactured in Asian nations. Most of them tend to mimic Western products or only make slight improvements to them. Asian nations don't pay as much attention to research & development as Western nations do. Keep in mind that I am not talking about countries like China, Russia, or Japan while referring to R&D. Many factors synthesize to form a prosperous nation, some of those factors are; good leadership, strong economies, innovative industries, good moral values, knowledge & military might. There are other factors too, but these are some of the basics a country needs to focus on.

Keep in mind that the thirst for knowledge & the desire to progress must be for the sake of prosperity, success & benefiting not only the individual's own nation, but mankind as a whole. Helping other nations results in greater respect from the beneficiary, & all those observing international developments. These were some of my views on the subject. I typed this out in a hurry, so I apologize if some points seem to be jumbled up.

As usual, your post is a pleasure to read. Thanks for taking time to write.

 

[Audio]

There is one contemporary Asian phenomenon that, Mr Mishra notes, would seem far less surprising to the author’s subjects than to many present-day Westerners. That is the depth of anti-Western feeling. Millions, he writes, “derive profound gratification from the prospect of humiliating their former masters and overlords.”

Some of those millions have found their way here and they engage each other with verbal masturbation about the demise of their former "masters".
It's funny as hell, observing but knowing that apart from words there's really not much of anything they can do.

The ways of the West may not be working.

I agree with this. Hopefully we will find a new direction without so much corporatism and getting back to basics of humanity.

Many factors synthesize to form a prosperous nation, some of those factors are; good leadership, strong economies, innovative industries, good moral values, knowledge & military might.

We are lacking good moral values in an epic amount.
Also leadership could be better, for one thing they should have stopped the bloating bubbles and rampant loans fueled by consumerism gone wild.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

We are lacking good moral values in an epic amount.
Also leadership could be better, for one thing they should have stopped the bloating bubbles and rampant loans fueled by consumerism gone wild.

What do you mean by "bloating bubbles"? I agree with you on the consumerism bit. Consumerism isn't bad at all if people spend on products & services they actually require. The misuse of credit cards & the ease of borrowing loans has managed to put many families in long term debts. Credit counselling or debt consolidation may ease the burden of paying back dues, but they are by no means a relief.

In my opinion, some of the problems in Western societies result from materialism. To an average individual materialism means that everything that exists is composed of matter, thus reality is the physical world we live in. In this individual's mind, there is nothing beyond that which is observable by the eyes, thus he or she is likely to reject religion almost immediately. A rejection of religion will cause a loss of moral values. You may argue that religion isn't necessary for us to decide whatever is right or wrong. While that is true to an extent, it's still undeniable that religion has had more influence on moral values or morality than individual thought. Without religion, moral values would be completely subjective, what one individual considers to be wrong, may be considered right by another. For example; murder would be considered a crime by everyone, but drinking & driving might be acceptable to a couple of people. In any case, this could turn out to be an extremely lengthy discussion. Lets just say that it's better for a society to adopt values that result in a healthy social life & aid in reducing or eliminating societal ills.

Moving on, there is a possibility that "out of control" consumerism may be fueled by materialism. The reasons for this are obvious, a materialistic individual cares more about physical things instead of intellectual or cultural values. I should add that to an extent, all of us care about physical things. For example, all of us desire to own the best products available, this includes vehicles, gadgets, etc. The difference is that our desire for physical things or comforts hasn't distracted us from intellectual pursuits & neither has it resulted in a loss of moral & cultural values. Anyway, these were my views on the subject.

 

[Hello_10]

I would like to say about one of the senior management person, who finally moved to India because he had 3 daughters. he was based in US, was relative of my one friend in Sydney. he moved to India just because he had got a feeling that soon his daughters may run with those males of their schools who are just generation of Single Mother type families, who themselves dont have any family nor their daughters will remain like how he wanted them to study hard and grow in life, have a career. that gentleman had good work experience with foreign degree so he could get a very good job in India also and moved........

that gentleman had a simple thinking that his daughters were going to be 12-13 and this is the age when they are generally taken by the boys in the schools of US/UK/Australia. in australia I saw, you can't say anything to your kid against his/her wish and its legal there if people of same age wish to do whatever they want to do in life. its also acceptable to an extent if you find your kids on the track even in this Western life style but it is usually seen that by just 17 to 18 year age, these kids just become like common australians who just earn for 5 days and spend on weekends, with keep changing boy friends/girl friends by every 5-6 months. hence, after just 18-19 year age, first you kids then start living with their own boy friends/girl friends, leave home, and at the same time they become almost like these generation of Single Mother, no attachment with parents and just earn few days while doing a labor type job and spend on weekends. and if you want this then raise your kids in Australia and if not then send them to India so that they may try to study hard and have a bright career, like how the environment in the schools of India........ you just won't like to think that one day your kids will do labor jobs and migrants of India doing White Collar jobs as you wanted them to have fun in life in australian schools, but you couldn't give them a good environment which could help them have a bright career

and those who oppose this type of Western life style in US/UK/Australia say that even if the kids of Single Mothers grow, then its the tax the high paid migrants pay there which then feed these people by Welfare/free Medical etc. as these Single Mothers first can't bear expanses of their kids by themselves and second they aren't not sure who are father of these kids. you may send your kids to India to study hard but they dont have this option as their kids simply don't have known father. hence, adopting any lifestyle if good only to that extent which may not destroy your family/society/nation completely. and there must not be any reason to support every right and wrong of Western nations, just because you are a citizen.....

 

[kawaraj]

I agree with this. Hopefully we will find a new direction without so much corporatism and getting back to basics of humanity.

no, not that easy.

the world is balanced and sometime it falls into worldwide pendulum effect. I would say the West's best time has just gone, not coming back in this thousand year. And the East, with all those intellectual reviews and pondering of the fall over last 800 years, will just revive faster than expected.

what the West need to do is to alleviate their crimes in the last 800 years, or they will be enslaved by the East the same way they had done to the East, including the African nations.

The oppressed world including Africa, Latin America, Asia (except China and Japan) were all severely harmed by colonists, with treasures looted, cultures slaughtered, human capital robbed shipped as slaves, etc. It can not just be wiped out like it never happened.

Just worry the future nightmares you and your future countrymen will face if you are not taking measures to compensate what you have committed, or even still bullying the oppressed world.

 

[Hello_10]

no, not that easy.

the world is balanced and sometime it falls into worldwide pendulum effect. I would say the West's best time has just gone, not coming back in this thousand year. And the East, with all those intellectual reviews and pondering of the fall over last 800 years, will just revive faster than expected.

what the West need to do is to alleviate their crimes in the last 800 years, or they will be enslaved by the East the same way they had done to the East, including the African nations.

The oppressed world including Africa, Latin America, Asia (except China and Japan) were all severely harmed by colonists, with treasures looted, cultures slaughtered, human capital robbed shipped as slaves, etc. It can not just be wiped out like it never happened.

Just worry the future nightmares you and your future countrymen will face if you are not taking measures to compensate what you have committed, or even still bullying the oppressed world.

one day we argued, there won't be any migration to US/EU if they don't need a professional desperately otherwise they themselves have very high unemployment rate, make sense???? and then we said, even if US/UK/Australia also have limited but home made professionals, they are simply not 'competent' enough to develop new technologies or improve the existing ones, as, they simple didn't grew up in the 'competitive' environment that they may help in any research to make 'competitive' products. there is just one competition in the australian schools, that is, who has how good body and hence can have more girl friends. this attitude do help you in winning more medals in sports and also performing pretty good while doing labor jobs, not more......

and I have met even many Indians in australia who simply say that no one would have kids if he knows that just after the age of 13-14, he/she will run with girl friend/boy friend, as how will it benefit the family this way? ...... Indians still have the belief that a son/daughter means by only those who may help your family earn honor in future, by performing good in different competitions including in business. having a son who just work for 5 days and spend on weekend with bringing a new girl from pubs every week, similar to normal life in australia, is a disaster for the whole family which encourage other kids also to have similar fun in life.....

indians having western citizenship have serious feeling that they are superior to the indians based in India and they feel bad when they see indian professionals coming from India very successful in western nations while many of their own kids are just labors? there is no meaning of having kids if you can't give them bright career, make them a good citizen, other than just giving them fun in life....

 

[Audio]

no, not that easy.

the world is balanced and sometime it falls into worldwide pendulum effect. I would say the West's best time has just gone, not coming back in this thousand year. And the East, with all those intellectual reviews and pondering of the fall over last 800 years, will just revive faster than expected.

what the West need to do is to alleviate their crimes in the last 800 years, or they will be enslaved by the East the same way they had done to the East, including the African nations.

The oppressed world including Africa, Latin America, Asia (except China and Japan) were all severely harmed by colonists, with treasures looted, cultures slaughtered, human capital robbed shipped as slaves, etc. It can not just be wiped out like it never happened.

Just worry the future nightmares you and your future countrymen will face if you are not taking measures to compensate what you have committed, or even still bullying the oppressed world.

lol, you are dreaming, clueless and delusional. I have no time and good will to entertain your stupid beliefs.

And yeah, we will keep on bullying. People like you need it.

or wait, scratch that....after i come from lunch id like to hear how you plan to carry it all out? This enslaving with a vengeance part i mean, lol.

and I have met even may Indians in australia who simply say that no one would have kids if he knows that just after the age of 13-14, he/she will run with girl friend/boy friend, as how will it benefit the family this way? ...... Indians still have the belief that a son/daughter means by only those who may help your family earn honor in future, by performing good in different competitions including in business. having a son who just work for 5 days and spend on weekend with bringing a new girl from pubs every week, similar to normal life in australia, is a disaster for the whole family which encourage other kids also to have similar fun in life.....

That's because in India, like in China, there is no institutionalized pension system. In the "west" children are free to go at some point, in fact most are even urged to go on their own, i dont know how you see this as a bad thing?
You want us all to be momma's boys?

in India and in China the way i see it, children are an investment for parents to cash in at an older age. That might possibly be the reason for so many kids in families in India (of course in China the 1 child policy comes into play.)
Also your badly disguised hate seeps through every line. I think you are just jealous like the Japanese immigrant worker above.
And at the same time some basic math skills eludes you both, but that never let anyone from some good ole fashioned hating.

 

[Audio]

What do you mean by "bloating bubbles"?

IT (bursted in 2000's) , real estate bubble (bursted in 2008), green energy (smaller) bubble ( bursting now with billions of dollars of government subsidies going down the drain).
I dont have time to post links, im out for lunch, just search Google for green energy startups going bankrupt under Obama.

Also, gradual deregulation of government oversight over the stock traders (process that took decades and required a huge amount of lobbying and cash probably) has a large part in it.

In other words, generation after generation of businessmen have been nibbling away at the regulation law until it became virtually useless and allowed banks to do "creative accounting".