The insanity of resuming cricket ties with Pakistan

[Areesh]

Hate for Pakistan, Yes, you may be right there.. Think about it.. How does one look at a good gesture favorably, till the time most of us in India believe that Pakistan's single minded agenda for last 60 years and for foreseeable future is to harm India. From a Pakistani perspective, this may not be entirely accurate, but unfortunately thats what most of us in India believe. Hence kind of difficult treating this and such minor peace gestures in isolation

Bold part. Many in Pakistan believe the same about India. Don't think this "reason" would work for us Pakistanis.

 

[mjnaushad]

Hate for Pakistan, Yes, you may be right there.. Think about it.. How does one look at a good gesture favorably, till the time most of us in India believe that Pakistan's single minded agenda for last 60 years and for foreseeable future is to harm India. From a Pakistani perspective, this may not be entirely accurate, but unfortunately thats what most of us in India believe. Hence kind of difficult treating this and such minor peace gestures in isolation

We resumed relation even after 71 when Pakistanis were getting killed on daily basis by people trained by India...... We resumed relations when Our cities were blow up by "Spies" of yours......



Its a shame Indians are now making 26/11 a base for all their hate...... Justice wont be achieved by cutting relations...it can be achieved by improving relations..... But Indian Media, Govt and also people to some extent are not serious about 26/11.... Because they knows crying about it benefits there propaganda more than it will to catch the real responsible.........And this is just another episode of that crying

 

[Jackdaws]

Given the BCCI's clout in the ICC - I am surprised that no one has raised the issue of suspending Pakistan from the ICC. South Africa was suspended till they got rid of apartheid. The same should be done to Pakistan till they clean up their act.

We resumed relation even after 71 when Pakistanis were getting killed on daily basis by people trained by India...... We resumed relations when Our cities were blow up by "Spies" of yours......



Its a shame Indians are now making 26/11 a base for all their hate...... Justice wont be achieved by cutting relations...it can be achieved by improving relations..... But Indian Media, Govt and also people to some extent are not serious about 26/11.... Because they knows crying about it benefits there propaganda more than it will to catch the real responsible.........And this is just another episode of that crying

You see for Pakistan 26/11 was just another terror attack. But for Indians it was a lot more. It is sad that it took an attack on the upper echelon of Indian society for us to feel the pain of those who were killed in terror attacks like those in trains and small towns.

And as far as visas to Pakistani fans for cricket are concerned - check out this thread -

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...kistan-passport-gang-smashed.html#post3219320

Now what can we expect when Pakistani "fans" demand Indian visas?

 

[Icarus]

I think the issue is more than just about cricket. The GoI chose this moment to restart cricketing ties (ostensibly stopped a mark of protest after 26/11) without anything to show for it.

That's because the GoI knows that this is their own fault, when you are investigating a trans-national crime, you need full co-operation between the investigating parties. However, whereas the Indian commission was allowed full access to all sites and persons, the Indian side did not reciprocate the same for the Pakistani commission. Here is a short summary of what the commission wanted:

Interview with Kasab-Denied
Interview with policemen who detained him-Denied
Interview with security men who investigated his ship-Denied
Access to his belongings-Denied
Interview with policemen who saw them run a mock at the train station-Denied
Interview with survivors of their attacked locations-Denied
A visit to the attacked location-Denied

Among many others, in such critical shortage of evidence, what are the Pakistani courts supposed to do? Try everyone that India says based on their own testimony? You guys respect your courts, it's best that you respect ours.

It also comes in the wake of Abu Jundal's "confession" on the roles supposedly played by state actors & repeated by the Union cabinet minister in charge of Home affairs.

That 'Confession' will be considered as such when the commission has access to the man and can then verify that the characters he is incriminating are actually somehow associated with the case. It's a trans-national investigation, not a game of chor-police.

The timing stinks to high heaven. With Pakistan showing almost no movement on this issue, what, many of us ask, is the need to rush to bail out Pakistan with a cricket tour? It's the coffers of the Pakistani cricket board that are in shambles not that of BCCI and Pakistani cricket is directly suffering from the effect of the country's refusal to crackdown on terrorism.

I don't know if you follow the news much but if the Ops in FATA, Swat and Malakand aren't 'Cracking down on terrorism', then you people are impossible to satisfy and it is best that we remain at logger heads.

Make no mistake, Pakistan's tour of India will be followed at some point with a reciprocal tour (probably in England) which will help the Pakistani cricket board to become financially viable. Why should India bail out something which is finally suffering from the effects of the similar terror that Pakistan, we believe, has inflicted on us.

1) On a neutral venue Pakistan gets zip.
2) You guys don't even know the meaning of suffering, one attack and you guys till haven't forgotten it and we have had to contend with much more.

The isolation of Pakistani cricket is actually that rare time when ordinary Pakistanis have to face up to the consequences that the unbridled run that terrorist groups have had in their country. Eventually, that isolation would have been one of the pressure points (even if a minor one) on those at the helm of the Pakistani state just like the anti-apartheid boycott affected a feeling of being piah's on the white South Africans.

If I wasn't reading it here, I would think it was straight out of the Indian foreign office, the same old lame rhetoric.

 

[mjnaushad]

Given the BCCI's clout in the ICC - I am surprised that no one has raised the issue of suspending Pakistan from the ICC. South Africa was suspended till they got rid of apartheid. The same should be done to Pakistan till they clean up their act.



You see for Pakistan 26/11 was just another terror attack. But for Indians it was a lot more. It is sad that it took an attack on the upper echelon of Indian society for us to feel the pain of those who were killed in terror attacks like those in trains and small towns.

And as far as visas to Pakistani fans for cricket are concerned - check out this thread -

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...kistan-passport-gang-smashed.html#post3219320

Now what can we expect when Pakistani "fans" demand Indian visas?

I dont think terrorist needs any passport...... As its confirmed many In India are willing to help...... Getting a passport and that a Pakistani to travel to India means they are under watch all the time..... They rather get Intel from their Indian friends and Infiltrate by other means instead of going via flight.... The 26/11 boat was found because after landing the infiltrators start shooting.... No one know from how many directions how many men are entering India silently with Indians help.....

 

[karan.1970]

No it's not....

'Tis.. 'Tis Not..

 

[Jackdaws]

I dont think terrorist needs any passport...... As its confirmed many In India are willing to help...... Getting a passport and that a Pakistani to travel to India means they are under watch all the time..... They rather get Intel from their Indian friends and Infiltrate by other means instead of going via flight.... The 26/11 boat was found because after landing the infiltrators start shooting.... No one know from how many directions how many men are entering India silently with Indians help.....

Yes, it is one thing to man the borders and another to roll out the welcome carpet.

 

[Bang Galore]

That's because the GoI knows that this is their own fault, when you are investigating a trans-national crime, you need full co-operation between the investigating parties.

Hardly the case, it was the Indian Home Minister, one of the highest ranking ministers in the cabinet leveling the charge of state involvement after the extradition of Abu Jundal.

However, whereas the Indian commission was allowed full access to all sites and persons,

Really? To whom exactly has Pakistan given access?

the Indian side did not reciprocate the same for the Pakistani commission. Here is a short summary of what the commission wanted:

Interview with Kasab-Denied
Interview with policemen who detained him-Denied
Interview with security men who investigated his ship-Denied
Access to his belongings-Denied
Interview with policemen who saw them run a mock at the train station-Denied
Interview with survivors of their attacked locations-Denied
A visit to the attacked location-Denied

All of this was agreed to before the arrival of your commission to India, if they were not interested then they should not have come. Do you actually believe that the Indian courts will allow for the kind of tamasha you are asking for? You commission can only collect information within limits it has no jurisdiction in India to cross examine nor will any court in India cede that right to a foreign commission.

Among many others, in such critical shortage of evidence, what are the Pakistani courts supposed to do? Try everyone that India says based on their own testimony? You guys respect your courts, it's best that you respect ours.

We will when your courts actually convict anyone. May I point out that your courts are in an absurd situation of trying a crime that has been committed in a place where the Pakistan i courts have no jurisdiction. If the trial is only for the act of plotting a terrorist attack elsewhere from within Pakistan, then it is incumbent on your authorities to investigate a crime that has essentially been committed in your jurisdiction. India cannot be expected to be the sole provider of evidence for what is a crime committed in Pakistan territory. The fact that not one of the other 9 attackers have even been identified by your police & that Kasab's own family suddenly vanishes never to be found is hardly indicative of any real attempt to investigate this matter with any seriousness.

That 'Confession' will be considered as such when the commission has access to the man and can then verify that the characters he is incriminating are actually somehow associated with the case. It's a trans-national investigation, not a game of chor-police.

Not for your consumption. What we do know without a shadow of a doubt is that Pakistan tried desperately to prevent extradition of a man who was wanted specifically on the Mumbai attack.

I don't know if you follow the news much but if the Ops in FATA, Swat and Malakand aren't 'Cracking down on terrorism', then you people are impossible to satisfy and it is best that we remain at logger heads.

Your cracking down selectively on terrorist groups that affect you while leaving those that target India to run free impresses nobody as any sort of a change in mindset. We will continue to remain at logger heads as you suggested if you believe that we will be satisfied with a limited pursuing of terrorists of your choice.

1) On a neutral venue Pakistan gets zip.

Not really, you still get all the money paid as TV rights which is what the Pakistani board is after.

2) You guys don't even know the meaning of suffering, one attack and you guys till haven't forgotten it and we have had to contend with much more.

That's like arguing that if a neighbour complains about your rabid dog, you respond by saying that you suffer more because that dog of yours bites you too. You are facing the consequences of your own actions of fostering & patronising terrorist groups for decades, what we are facing are as the result of the actions of groups & entities that operate from & with the support of Pakistan based organisations.

If I wasn't reading it here, I would think it was straight out of the Indian foreign office, the same old lame rhetoric.

The rhetoric reflects reality.

 

[saiyan0321]

Given the BCCI's clout in the ICC - I am surprised that no one has raised the issue of suspending Pakistan from the ICC. South Africa was suspended till they got rid of apartheid. The same should be done to Pakistan till they clean up their act.

you keep crying about this thing but reality is its not going to happen senseless at its best

i have no idea why this is being used in sports its crazy infact extremely crazy to mis terrorism with sports what they think junaid khan will blow himself up in the stadium. you know indians over here shriek and shout that pakistan is the problem but it looks like india is the one with the problem when it comes to resuming ties and creating better relations we are not messing up the neighborhood its people who are against this are.

fine mumbai attack was bad but you know we had our attacks too from you guys and from terrorist but we are letting things go we had our people burned in the samjhota trai but no matter we are still trying to move forward but it seems baby india is still crying and making excuses... oh and about saving pcb read the news bcci said no revenue sharing and hey we accepted that too do you know why bcz we want better relations

All of this was agreed to before the arrival of your commission to India, if they were not interested then they should not have come. Do you actually believe that the Indian courts will allow for the kind of tamasha you are asking for? You commission can only collect information within limits it has no jurisdiction in India to cross examine nor will any court in India cede that right to a foreign commission.

what tamasha this is how courts do work both lawyers investigate the criminal what kind of tamasha was your officials asking for huh give judgement based on what india would say

That's like arguing that if a neighbour complains about your rabid dog, you respond by saying that you suffer more because that dog of yours bites you too. You are facing the consequences of your own actions of fostering & patronising terrorist groups for decades, what we are facing are as the result of the actions of groups & entities that operate from & with the support of Pakistan based organisations

what more do you want to do terrorist are in only one place and guess what those places are under crackdown excuses like you are taking care of your terrorist not ours is just an excuse nothing more and extremely baseless lies

Yes, it is one thing to man the borders and another to roll out the welcome carpet.

roll out the carpet a team is coming on a tour not a thousand civilians are bing given visa,s how can those accounted for do an attack tell me what between drinks brake afridi will disappear shoot people and come t bat and bowl do you see ho baseless that sounds a team is coming and going not a hundred people

 

[IceCold]

Does it look like Indians are getting bored, neither the BCCI or the Indian players are hurting for money. Look, no one in India believes that anything will come out of the Pakistani investigations because we are convinced that there is some level of involvement of actors with state connections whether authorised or otherwise. The desperate attempts to prevent the extradition of Abu Jundal by claiming him to be a Pakistani citizen has conceivably removed any doubts on that score if any did exist after Headley's confession & now that of Abu Jundal. What Pakistanis may think about this matter is irrelevant to the opinion formed within India. It's one of the reasons that most Indians now believe that it would be neither prudent nor advisable to share anything of substance with the Pakistani authorities and in any case, would most certainly be a waste of time since Pakistan cannot & will not investigate against itself(something that your High Commissioner said from a different perspective). So essentially, there is no one waiting with bated breath for the illusory Pakistani co-operation which is why many feel that keeping Pakistani state(& its accessories including the cricket team) at an arms length might not be a bad way to go about things.

How ironic. One one hand you guys accuse us of not doing anything and when we start doing, you guys already have a made up mind and call it an illusion. Then tell us exactly which route shall we follow. The way we see it, since you guys already have made up your mind, nothing that we will ever do, is going to change that. We will still see a complaining and a whining face like the ones above, so why should we do anything at all?
Don't you see the problem here that lies with the attitude of even the educated ones forget the extremist. You cant clap with just one hand, it has to be both. I know you guys don't believe in our judicial process, but there is one in Pakistan and if it can sack a PM and send him home, it can sure do things provided evidence is provided for the prosecutor to make his case.

 

[Bang Galore]

How ironic. One one hand you guys accuse us of not doing anything and when we start doing, you guys already have a made up mind and call it an illusion. Then tell us exactly which route shall we follow. The way we see it, since you guys already have made up your mind, nothing that we will ever do, is going to change that. We will still see a complaining and a whining face like the ones above, so why should we do anything at all?
Don't you see the problem here that lies with the attitude of even the educated ones forget the extremist. You cant clap with just one hand, it has to be both. I know you guys don't believe in our judicial process, but there is one in Pakistan and if it can sack a PM and send him home, it can sure do things provided evidence is provided for the prosecutor to make his case.

It's not about whether I or people like me want peace. We do, we just don't believe that we have any way of getting there with you chaps. It's not about making up our mind, it's about accepting reality. As I have said, no serious investigations has ever been done in Pakistan on who the 9+Kasab were, their backgrounds & how they got to be involved in this group, who recruited them, who trained them & how they managed to get the training required, let alone the more serious business of investigating a guy like Hafeez Saeed. You have refused consistently to provide voice samples, tried your very best to play down Headley's confession even when it came from American sources & not Indian, now tried your utmost to prevent the extradition of Abu Jundal, what other conclusion could anyone come to? All you have done is attempt from the very beginning to obfuscate the facts, first claiming that Kasab was not Pakistani, sacking the NSA when he revealed that Kasab was indeed Pakistani, mocked Indian evidence without ever digging up any of your own, dragged on a trial with the Americans now confirming that the suspects are actually running the operations of the LeT from within the jail. Real confidence builder that!

Maybe your courts will surprise us but I wouldn't recommend holding anyone breadth on that hope. Your courts prefer the more populist arena of taking on the civilians, letting the darker, harder elements go scot free. I expect nothing different here.

 

[ajtr]