The IAF’s Fleet Strength Is Depleting Fast, But Su-30MKI Is Flying To The Rescue

[帅的一匹]

Rafale is good, not good enough to deal with Su35 or J20.

 

[MilSpec]

AL31F will be an overkill for Mig27 and there is a high possibility not being fit for a strike fighter like that.

Under a separate program in cooperation with "Salut" enterprise it is offered to replace aboard the MiG-27M aircraft the obsolute R29B-300 engine with modern AL-31F ser. 30C engine which will ensure improvement of tactical performance of the fighter-bomber, reliability and cost efficiency of its operation.


http://www.migavia.ru/index.php/en/...ation-fighters/mig-23-mig-27-aircraft-upgrade

 

[karan.1970]

Let me draw some flak from Indian Members here.
Get two additional squadrons of MKI, LCA inductions are already planned. For interim Re-engine remaining Mig27 airframes with AL31'f, when airframe runs out of life cycle scrap the airframe, store the engine as spares for MKI.

Scrap Rafale altogether, I really am not interested in 36 fighters for 9 billion. Enough of this B.S.

Why flak.. Its common sense. 9 billion for 2 squads dont make sense for India. But the 9 billion price tag is not just for rafaels. It the purchase of Diplomatic equity.

 

[#hydra#]

Rafale is now a far too expensive to justify

Since the main role for Rafale is to take over the ground attack duties from the Mig27 and Jaguars
So we should just get the F/A18
It can do everything which the Rafale can except it has a higher RCS and lower ferry Range than Rafale and USA won't handover the Growler EW Suite which matches the French Specta EW



We can get 60 F/A18 Superhornet for 9 Billion
And Boeing can deliver at a faster rate than Dasault

Neither rafale & f18 have the reach of su27 family fighters. If we want to do a strike mission in China(mainland China not Tibet) with a decent load we should go for su34.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Let me draw some flak from Indian Members here.
Get two additional squadrons of MKI, LCA inductions are already planned. For interim Re-engine remaining Mig27 airframes with AL31'f, when airframe runs out of life cycle scrap the airframe, store the engine as spares for MKI.

Scrap Rafale altogether, I really am not interested in 36 fighters for 9 billion. Enough of this B.S.

I would be all for this idea IF the MKI was a perfect substitute for the Rafale OR the MKI offered significant bang for buck over the Rafale but I am not convinced on either count. Not only does the Rafale outclass the MKI in many key areas but the MKI price the Russians are now charging is not all that dissimilar to the unit cost of the Rafale and that too to deliver poorer servicability, higher AOG rates per a/c, less time between overhauls and generally less impressive support systems.

The gap between the Rafale and MKI (in terms of cost) is not as much as many may like to beleive. These are both heavy twin engined contemporary fighter a/c, exactly what miracles do the Russians perform to deliver their products with such a large discount relative to their competition? The answer is none. The Russians have always played the low unit/upfront cost game but isn't it funny that once the IAF/India switched over to true LCC analysis as a basis for procurement the Russians have lost EVERY single deal to Western competitors- Heavy Attack (Apache), AAR (A330 MRTT), Heavy Lift (CH-47F), RSH (Fennec) etc etc.

In the long term I am certain a 300 strong MKI fleet will cost the IAF a LOT more than a 300 strong Rafale fleet, Indians are just too easily duped by sticker prices (which incidently aren't all that flattering for Russian products anymore).

A friend of mine (former RAF) told me that whilst Western products may fetch a premium of up to 50% over their Russian/Eastern competitors, over the life of the product whilst the Western product would cost 2-3 times its upfront price to keep going, a Russian product would cost 4-5 times its unit price. You pay peanuts and you get monkey's, please let's not pretend that Russia is doing India any favours. There is a reason the MiG-35 has secured preciesly 0 orders whilst even the "over priced" Rafale is clinching them all around the world now.


@PARIKRAMA @Taygibay

 

[Taygibay]

Actually, the 30 is heavy; the Raffy is a light middle weight.
Jet fighters' operational cost follows weight! Check it out!

Q. In the pic below from India, which is the lightest fighter?

A. The best one, on the left. It also has a weapons load of 9 tons versus the 8 tons of the big couch.
... and better equipement on-board.

So if Abingdon is right in stating that the price difference may not be that big while the jet is, it follows ...

Thinking out loud, sorry, Tay.

 

[MilSpec]

I would be all for this idea IF the MKI was a perfect substitute for the Rafale OR the MKI offered significant bang for buck over the Rafale but I am not convinced on either count. Not only does the Rafale outclass the MKI in many key areas but the MKI price the Russians are now charging is not all that dissimilar to the unit cost of the Rafale and that too to deliver poorer servicability, higher AOG rates per a/c, less time between overhauls and generally less impressive support systems.

The gap between the Rafale and MKI (in terms of cost) is not as much as many may like to beleive. These are both heavy twin engined contemporary fighter a/c, exactly what miracles do the Russians perform to deliver their products with such a large discount relative to their competition? The answer is none. The Russians have always played the low unit/upfront cost game but isn't it funny that once the IAF/India switched over to true LCC analysis as a basis for procurement the Russians have lost EVERY single deal to Western competitors- Heavy Attack (Apache), AAR (A330 MRTT), Heavy Lift (CH-47F), RSH (Fennec) etc etc.

In the long term I am certain a 300 strong MKI fleet will cost the IAF a LOT more than a 300 strong Rafale fleet, Indians are just too easily duped by sticker prices (which incidently aren't all that flattering for Russian products anymore).

A friend of mine (former RAF) told me that whilst Western products may fetch a premium of up to 50% over their Russian/Eastern competitors, over the life of the product whilst the Western product would cost 2-3 times its upfront price to keep going, a Russian product would cost 4-5 times its unit price. You pay peanuts and you get monkey's, please let's not pretend that Russia is doing India any favours. There is a reason the MiG-35 has secured preciesly 0 orders whilst even the "over priced" Rafale is clinching them all around the world now.


@PARIKRAMA @Taygibay

Serviceability issues due to poor MRO stores management is not just just the doing of the russians, we are equally to blame for it.

As far a LCC, is concerned, I will buy it when I see it. There is a reason why MKI inflated from from original 100 odd units to more than twice of initial plan. and a good reason why none of the other systems ever saw that growth. And bang for the buck has a lot to do with it.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Serviceability issues due to poor MRO stores management is not just just the doing of the russians, we are equally to blame for it.

No sir, I'm sorry I just don't buy it. Russians are notoriously hapless when it comes to after sales support, almost every Russian product one could care to mention in Indian service has been hit by this issue. There is a reson the MoD took the unprecedented step of looking to third party vendors to source spares for many Russian-origin systems as the OEMs were simply unable to deliver.

The very best availability Sukhoi has promised the IAF for its MKI fleet is 75% (should be the case in a few months) but Dassualt is willing to commit to 85-90%.

As far a LCC, is concerned, I will buy it when I see it. There is a reason why MKI inflated from from original 100 odd units to more than twice of initial plan. and a good reason why none of the other systems ever saw that growth. And bang for the buck has a lot to do with it.

The reasons being
1) No LCA induction to date
2) MMRCA still a distant dream
3)An uptake in the economy (the past decade has seen unprecedented growth for the GDP and budget by extension)
4) Localised production of the MKI means it is easy to simply "tack on" addtional units when the need is felt for the above reasons.

If the IAF had had its way they would have got 126-189 Mirage 2000s by now which would have seen an expnsion of their M2K fleet by around 500%. The MKI has seen a 300% increase from the orginal mandate.

 

[dadeechi]

Neither rafale & f18 have the reach of su27 family fighters. If we want to do a strike mission in China(mainland China not Tibet) with a decent load we should go for su34.

China is already procuring S-400s.

 

[帅的一匹]

Neither rafale & f18 have the reach of su27 family fighters. If we want to do a strike mission in China(mainland China not Tibet) with a decent load we should go for su34.

For that you need Tu160 bomber. I'm sorry your aircraft won't able to penetrate China's air defense.

 

[Dash]

Under a separate program in cooperation with "Salut" enterprise it is offered to replace aboard the MiG-27M aircraft the obsolute R29B-300 engine with modern AL-31F ser. 30C engine which will ensure improvement of tactical performance of the fighter-bomber, reliability and cost efficiency of its operation.


http://www.migavia.ru/index.php/en/...ation-fighters/mig-23-mig-27-aircraft-upgrade

I was not aware of it, so, thanks for the link.
I am not trying to work out how viable a financial deal it is and what operational gap it will fulfil for IAF. The one thing that has to be debated right now, and I will quote the man Mr Arup Raha, when he says he "doesn't" have a plan B.

 

[Mentee]

can anyone tell me what is the loiter time of su30mki with and without drop tanks?

 

[MilSpec]

The reasons being.
1) No LCA induction to date
2) MMRCA still a distant dream
3)An uptake in the economy (the past decade has seen unprecedented growth for the GDP and budget by extension)
4) Localised production of the MKI means it is easy to simply "tack on" addtional units when the need is felt for the above reasons.

If the IAF had had its way they would have got 126-189 Mirage 2000s by now which would have seen an expnsion of their M2K fleet by around 500%. The MKI has seen a 300% increase from the orginal mandate.

Hi,

IAF has had thier way, it did not see expansion of Mirage, or Jaguar or the Mig29, but it saw expansion in MKI. The point being as simple as price to capability ratio that MKI brings is immense. y.
Compare an IAf fleet with 100 MKI and 126 Mirages, instead of 55 mirages and 272 MKI - and see the difference yourself. Serviceability issue is only partly due to Russia's after sales support, it has a lot to do with the way we manage our own BRD's. I have seen firsthand what BRD's have done to the Mig29's and let me assure you we are to be equally blamed. You don't hear the chinese crying every day about there russian platforms, because they know how to manage there fleet, if they don't get a system from russia, they maintain an entire warehouse of pack stock spares and consumables. We on the other hand have the expectations of paying lada and expecting 5 series support.

Anyways, MoD is handling this in a terrible way, I just read that capex is 40% underutilized or something to that effect. So infact policy paralysis remain in effect despite regime change.... what a shame.

I was not aware of it, so, thanks for the link.
I am not trying to work out how viable a financial deal it is and what operational gap it will fulfil for IAF. The one thing that has to be debated right now, and I will quote the man Mr Arup Raha, when he says he "doesn't" have a plan B.

Then he should quit and let a competent man handle the affairs.

 

[[Bregs]]

Hi,

IAF has had thier way, it did not see expansion of Mirage, or Jaguar or the Mig29, but it saw expansion in MKI. The point being as simple as price to capability ratio that MKI brings is immense. y.
Compare an IAf fleet with 100 MKI and 126 Mirages, instead of 55 mirages and 272 MKI - and see the difference yourself. Serviceability issue is only partly due to Russia's after sales support, it has a lot to do with the way we manage our own BRD's. I have seen firsthand what BRD's have done to the Mig29's and let me assure you we are to be equally blamed. You don't here the chinese crying every day about there russian platforms, because they know how to manage there fleet, if they don't get a system from russia, they maintain an entire warehouse of pack stock spares and consumables. We on the other hand have the expectations of paying lada and expecting 5 series support.

Anyways, MoD is handling this in a terrible way, I just read that capex is 40% underutilized or something to that effect. So infact policy paralysis remain in effect despite regime change.... what a shame.

well said dear Indian base repair depots of fighters have messed around al ot with Russians equipment, it was Russians fighters in all the major wars India fought and won

 

[#hydra#]

China is already procuring S-400s.

So what?I don't think s400 is weapon from heaven to defend any thing fly in air.

For that you need Tu160 bomber. I'm sorry your aircraft won't able to penetrate China's air defense.

Almost all air defence can be penetrated,you only need proper tactics & proper weaponry,Israelis has done this earlier in many times,even Iraqis also done the same with their scud in first gulf war.

Hi,

IAF has had thier way, it did not see expansion of Mirage, or Jaguar or the Mig29, but it saw expansion in MKI. The point being as simple as price to capability ratio that MKI brings is immense. y.
Compare an IAf fleet with 100 MKI and 126 Mirages, instead of 55 mirages and 272 MKI - and see the difference yourself. Serviceability issue is only partly due to Russia's after sales support, it has a lot to do with the way we manage our own BRD's. I have seen firsthand what BRD's have done to the Mig29's and let me assure you we are to be equally blamed. You don't hear the chinese crying every day about there russian platforms, because they know how to manage there fleet, if they don't get a system from russia, they maintain an entire warehouse of pack stock spares and consumables. We on the other hand have the expectations of paying lada and expecting 5 series support.

Anyways, MoD is handling this in a terrible way, I just read that capex is 40% underutilized or something to that effect. So infact policy paralysis remain in effect despite regime change.... what a shame.


Then he should quit and let a competent man handle the affairs.

Nice observations bro.