The Ground-zero mosque, continued

[Awesome]

How Flawed. Do you read the teaching of Rumi, do you understand the teachings of the prophet and the interpretations of the Quran. Or do you base your opinion of what "moderate Islam" is based on the comments made by halfwit radicals veiled in a guise of tolerance and moderation?

Enlighten yourself about Islam and it's mystical aspects before making such ludicrous statements:

YouTube - What Am I?

It is unfortunate that the less learned are condemning Islam as a heinous monster without learning the literature that has helped shaped Islamic society for centuries such as this Bulley Shah translation.

 

[magg]

My freedom would end if it took away any of your freedoms, not in any other way.

Actually I am neither for nor against it's building since my views or your views or even Barack Obama's views are not reflective of views of the local people. All that I am saying is that the building should not be build just to show solidarity with muslims and to prove America's "Secularism".

If it affects the lifestyle of local people and create any disturbance to them then any such activity should not happen as it would make people angry and that may affect the secular harmony. On the other hand if it doesn't affect the locals then it should be build irrespective of any other persons view. Local harmony is more important then any gestures to prove secularism or 9/11.

 

[GentlemanObserver]

actually, i should make it clear that i am talking from the enlightenment intellectual standpoint. i understand that populist politics has different reasons to oppose islam and muslims(xenophobia / racism etc)

however, i don't think islam will get much support from the enlightenment intellectuals either until major reforms happen over time.

Again you seem to align the malpractice of the practitioner and burden it onto the system. It would be just as erroneous to blame the constitution for a specific statute

enlightenment intellectual standpoint

Eisenhower put it well "An intellectual is a man who takes more words than necessary to tell more than he knows."

 

[inddef]

i'd probably know more about mystical thought and monism if we got down to discussing it.

unfortunately, that is not what the majority of muslims follow, its not the orthodox teaching nor is it the most politically influential (wahhabis have the most money, outreach and control of the holy sites etc).

 

[Awesome]

Actually I am neither for nor against it's building since my views or your views or even Barack Obama's views are not reflective of views of the local people. All that I am saying is that the building should not be build just to show solidarity with muslims and to prove America's "Secularism".

Actually the building should or should not be build should be done in accordance to the LAW of the land.

Which it has already gotten the approval for.

Now there is a second debate. Should the law be overridden to prevent the mosque to be built? I see no other way of doing that other than legally declaring Islam as the enemy of America and foregoing your claim that America is a secular state.

 

[GentlemanObserver]

i'd probably know more about mystical thought and monism if we got down to discussing it.

unfortunately, that is not what the majority of muslims follow, its not the orthodox teaching nor is it the most politically influential (wahhabis have the most money, outreach and control of the holy sites etc).

i'd probably know more about mystical thought and monism if we got down to discussing it.

*look over your shoulder, see that chip, dust it off, then we will continue".

most politically influential

Sigh. Do you know how many Sufi shrines are in Pakistan, in Iran, in Indian, in Turkey in North Africa?

that is not what the majority of muslims follow

Generalisation much, since your an "intellectual" do you have the empirical data to back up this broad brush statement?

wahhabis have the most money, outreach and control of the holy sites etc

And yet there are Sufi's the world over, yet still despite their money and power, and publicity, Wahhabi are shunned by Sufi scholars... Holy Sites? You mean Mecca and Medina, there are more site then those you know, and they are controlled by Shia and Sunni alike.

Besides, holy sites are mere constructs of stone and timber, the divine dwells in our hearts.

 

[magg]

should be done in accordance to the LAW of the land.

The LAW of the land doesn't maintain make sure harmony among the people. The people to people contact does. If the locals are against it and they go ahead with building it then it will only create hatred among the locals and the extremists among them will attack it. The police protection might help but the enmity generated will harm the muslims in long term.

 

[Awesome]

The LAW of the land doesn't maintain make sure harmony among the people. The people to people contact does. If the locals are against it and they go ahead with building it then it will only create hatred among the locals and the extremists among them will attack it. The police protection might help but the enmity generated will harm the muslims in long term.

The hatred of the local people is not above the law. The law is final - not the sentiments.

Why have courts, penal codes, judges and juries - why not just revert America back to the lynch mob justice system? Either exercise your sentiment and declare a LAW against Islam or let the secular law be implemented. You can't have it both ways.

 

[AstanoshKhan]

We're gonna have a lot of brainwashed angry people once this is built:

"First they came and destroyed our buildings and killed everyone... Now they want to BUILD A F-ING MOSQUE THERE?!? KILL ALL MO-SLEMS!!"

If only they knew the truth:

September Clues: SEPTEMBER CLUES new 2008 COMPLETE

9/11 Blueprint for Truth: 9/11 Blueprint for Truth presented by Architect Richard Gage, AIA

The Mosque is an insensitive idea and plays on peoples islamophobia. Remember these people do not know the truth behind those attacks. Can you blame them? This is purposely made to fuel hate and animosity towards Muslims. we do not need this!

 

[fallstuff]

i think we are talking past each other actually. i sympathize with concerns of vilification of moderate muslims.

i am talking about the fact that even moderate islam isn't mature enough to be compatible with values of the enlightenment, let alone the extreme versions.

Some folks have very little knowledge of history or forgotten it all togather. European killed about a good 50 million of their own with their enlightened values. Almost annihilated the Jewish population in Europe. Its called the WW2.

You really do not have any clue about what you are talking about.

 

[fallstuff]

Imam's Wife Speaks Out On Mosque Controversy

The wife of the imam who wants to put a mosque near Ground Zero is vowing not to give up on the project.
Daisy Khan told "The Washington Post" opposition to the proposed mosque is evidence that, quote, "the post 9-11 controversy is not finished." The wife of Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf blamed Republicans for clouding the issue and called this a "defining moment" in the fight against "Islamophobia." Khan said she and her husband wanted to build a 13-story mosque and cultural center two blocks from the World Trade Center site as a way to unite people of all religions.
She says now, it's taken on a larger meaning about Constitutional rights, the status of American Muslims and the example the U.S. is setting for the rest of the world.
Khan said her group is talking with families of 9-11 victims, but that the issue has become too important for the mosque builders to back down.
She said, quote, "We have to take our opponents and transform them.
We have to convince people that not all Muslims are extremists." Khan's comments come as her husband is on a two-week, State Department-sponsored trip to promote religious tolerance in the Middle East.

Imam's Wife Speaks Out On Mosque Controversy - MyStateLine.com

 

[inddef]

Some folks have very little knowledge of history or forgotten it all togather. European killed about a good 50 million of their own with their enlightened values. Almost annihilated the Jewish population in Europe. Its called the WW2.

You really do not have any clue about what you are talking about.

the last line is deliciously ironic.

 

[fallstuff]

the last line is deliciously ironic.

Say that to this girl:

What kind of values these guys have ? A girl was stripped naked and forced to walk 8 km. She possibly walked for hours and not a soul helped that girl. I know why, there are busy bad mouthing other people with their enlightened values.



Or to these guys:

"International General Secretary of Vishwa Hindu Parishad(VHP) Dr. Praveen Bhai Togadiya said that the glorious temple will be constructed at the birth place of lord Ram, No mosque would be allowed in the cultural boundaries of Ayodhya and Babri mosque is not allowed in any part of the country."

Like I said take a good look at your self first, there is a lot of clean up to do.

 

[Solomon2]

Moral in the sense that the place of worship they are building is promoting a code of tolerance and peaceful co-existence.

And so to the families of the victims of 9-11 you have nothing to say, other than acknowledge that they should, in your opinion, learn to live with what they currently see as a cruel gesture by the Muslim community.

 

[GentlemanObserver]

cruel gesture by the Muslim community.

I think the Muslim community in the USA should just give up making this centre, there is no point of preaching understanding when all your words of wisdom, understanding and cohabitation are met with:

It is apparent from the many articles i have read and many prominent American politicians against Park51 centre see muslims as the following:

I understand the grief of the victims of 9/11, having lost a cousin to terrorists in Pakistan, i know the pain far to well. But do i blame all pathans for killing my cousin who was just serving his country, or do i blame the terrorists.

When you start associating a particular race, religion or creed with those who carried out such acts, you have already conceded to the will of the terrorists which i want to remind some learned posters here is to breed misunderstanding and sow the seeds of hatred and conflict.

Muslims have come out and Vociferously condemned 9/11 and those who carried out that disgusting atrocity on humanity. Why then are people still looking to Muslim to atone for sins not theirs to bare?

Why?