The Future of Kashmir? "Seven" Possible Solutions!

[RollingStones]

India cant keep on sending hundreds of thousands of its troop to Kashmir, how long will India keep on doing this?

The world is realizing now what is going on in Kashmir. I'm glad Obama is talking about it, the 61 year old dispute must come to an end for both India and Pakistan to move on.

If there was no Kashmir problem, there would not be any India-Pakistan tensions rising. The center of India-Pakistan problem is Kashmir.

That's what living in a false bubble would mean. Neither the US nor President Obama is remotely interested in a Kashmir solution, only to the extent that Pakistan would move its troops to their Western border. When the US Defense Secretary and the President repeatedly state that India is no threat to Pakistan means that:

a. The Kashmir issue is dead in the US' eyes. There is no single benefit that the US gets by even beginning to solve this issue. The US is not even interested in solving the Chechnya issue, which is far more volatile than Kashmir ever was. In fact the US currently is NOT interested in solving the Middle Eastern crisis either. When Obama appointed Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State, we all understood how low on the policy scale, the State Department came for Obama. He did not want Hillary anywhere near him and so he politically exiled her.
b. India has satisfied the US enough in its handling of Pakistan, that the US thinks that Pakistan is being uselessly India centric.
c. The US thinks that enough time has passed since the Bombay attacks that whatever justices need to be done has been done.
d. The US thinks that people of loosely sovereign areas are better off in India than in Pakistan, where they are taken advantage of and turned into undesirables.

If you want to bring the US into the discussion, you should at least be honest about what the US wants. My honest opinion is that Kashmir is a dead issue for the western world and unless you threaten to nuke India or nuke India, it is never going to become alive.

 

[RollingStones]

So you correct a wrong, by doing two more wrongs.

Seriously, i am not surprised, you are from the US.


You need to prove your yaps. Again you are just propagating your misplaced beliefs basing on which so run in circles.

Pakistani forces are and would remain present anywhere deemed necessary and this includes areas of GB (our fifth province) and AK whose defence is sanction by the UNCIP to which i have provided ample proof. Which you term 'gibberish' probably because you dont have anything to counter it and also that your toxicity has rendered your eyesight weak.

Your problem was the freedom fighters being supported by Pakistan, well you need to bring up something to support your claim or else it goes down that toxic drain or yours. Contemporary proofs with solid kills would be appreciated, please.

Then, you are completely ignorant of how world politics works. I would urge Pakistan to float lets say, a HR violation in Kashmir resolution in the UN, and see how many votes it gets. You can talk all you want and moralize all you want. If you dont take the rest of the world with you, you'll be stuck when all others would have moved on.

 

[Xeric]

That's what living in a false bubble would mean. Neither the US nor President Obama is remotely interested in a Kashmir solution, only to the extent that Pakistan would move its troops to their Western border. When the US Defense Secretary and the President repeatedly state that India is no threat to Pakistan means that:

What ever does SecDef or POTUS say, wouldnt matter. We have already at many occasions clarified that for us the priority one threat is on our East. i think you probably have forgotten the news piece where the US suggested us to move troops from our Eastern border towards the western front but was out-rightly rejected by Pakistan, and not a single man was moved there.

a. The Kashmir issue is dead in the US' eyes. There is no single benefit that the US gets by even beginning to solve this issue.

It wont matter, we already know how helpful the US has been to us in our critical times. Thanks, but no thanks. But then may be you need to worry about Kashmir issue as two nuclear armed nations sit eye ball to eye ball over it.

The US is not even interested in solving the Chechnya issue, which is far more volatile than Kashmir ever was. In fact the US currently is NOT interested in solving the Middle Eastern crisis either. When Obama appointed Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State, we all understood how low on the policy scale, the State Department came for Obama. He did not want Hillary anywhere near him and so he politically exiled her.

Yeah, we already know that, dont we? We know you have been held by balls in iraq and afghanistan so you are unable to think straight presently, none of your fault, that's quite natural.

b. India has satisfied the US enough in its handling of Pakistan, that the US thinks that Pakistan is being uselessly India centric.

Shyt like cold start and two front war have been flying from our East and you tell us it is useless? You people have forgotten the cold war, didnt you?

c. The US thinks that enough time has passed since the Bombay attacks that whatever justices need to be done has been done.

Well, the justice that already had been done is at par with the amount of proof available/provided, and we dont have any worries over that.

d. The US thinks that people of loosely sovereign areas are better off in India than in Pakistan, where they are taken advantage of and turned into undesirables.

If you want to bring the US into the discussion, you should at least be honest about what the US wants. My honest opinion is that Kashmir is a dead issue for the western world and unless you threaten to nuke India or nuke India, it is never going to become alive.

Who cares?

BTW, its you people who want us to go inside NWA, so whose at the receiving end?

 

[Xeric]

Then, you are completely ignorant of how world politics works. I would urge Pakistan to float lets say, a HR violation in Kashmir resolution in the UN, and see how many votes it gets. You can talk all you want and moralize all you want. If you dont take the rest of the world with you, you'll be stuck when all others would have moved on.

Well it was not us who denied visa to a war criminal and another indian national....

 

[RollingStones]

Well it was not us who denied visa to a war criminal and another indian national....

Yeah, but its we who also signed a large scale nuclear power treaty with India. In the scale of things, would you rely on actions such as large scale, multi billion dollar treaties suggest or small stuff such as visa denials, which is largely done to show some American rights organizations that the State department still cares for these issues and get them off their backs?

 

[Xeric]

Yeah, but its we who also signed a large scale nuclear power treaty with India. In the scale of things, would you rely on actions such as large scale, multi billion dollar treaties suggest or small stuff such as visa denials, which is largely done to show some American rights organizations that the State department still cares for these issues and get them off their backs?

First, it the visa was not denied by the US, by Canada.

Ok, so now have the gotten the guts to show your true face by saying that whatever you do is just superficial and just a hogwash. Well, not surprised, international politics work that way, but then i am worried about the american people who claim their basis from freedom, justice and truth! Poor people!

BTW, arent we people talking Kashmir here?

 

[RollingStones]

What ever does SecDef or POTUS say, wouldnt matter. We have already at many occasions clarified that for us the priority one threat is on our East. i think you probably have forgotten the news piece where the US suggested us to move troops from our Eastern border towards the western front but was out-rightly rejected by Pakistan, and not a single man was moved there.


It wont matter, we already know how helpful the US has been to us in our critical times. Thanks, but no thanks. But then may be you need to worry about Kashmir issue as two nuclear armed nations sit eye ball to eye ball over it.


Yeah, we already know that, dont we? We know you have been held by balls in iraq and afghanistan so you are unable to think straight presently, none of your fault, that's quite natural.


Shyt like cold start and two front war have been flying from our East and you tell us it is useless? You people have forgotten the cold war, didnt you?


Well, the justice that already had been done is at par with the amount of proof available/provided, and we dont have any worries over that.



Who cares?

BTW, its you people who want us to go inside NWA, so whose at the receiving end?

If you dont care, the leave the US out of Kashmir discussions. Pn Pakistani wars, you cannot accept money from us and then send your own soldiers to fight and die and then claim we are at the receiving end. Either you dont work for us or work for us. You cannot work for us and then complaint about us not being good. If you had refused all our moneys and refused to work, then we can see your locus standi, and we may have even admired your courage. To complain now is rather weak.

 

[Xeric]

Off topic post, ignored.

 

[RollingStones]

First, it the visa was not denied by the US, by Canada.

Ok, so now have the gotten the guts to show your true face by saying that whatever you do is just superficial and just a . Well, not surprised, international politics work that way, but then i am worried about the american people who claim their basis from freedom, justice and truth! Poor people!

BTW, arent we people talking Kashmir here?

Not superficial, but done in ways that overall balances relationship between countries and protects US interests. I mean you wouldnt want us to cut trade with India because Canada refused entry to some bozo, would you? Its like plea bargain - we could ultimately prove you wrong at considerable expense but if you admit upfront you are wrong, we'll reduce your punishment and everyone can move on. You wouldnt call this a superficial exercise, would you? Nothing is absolute in this world. Everything has to be bargained for. No one has unlimited resources.

 

[toxic_pus]

Pakistani forces are and would remain present anywhere deemed necessary and this includes areas of GB (our fifth province) and AK whose defence is sanction by the UNCIP to which i have provided ample proof. Which you term 'gibberish' probably because you dont have anything to counter it and also that your toxicity has rendered your eyesight weak.

Can you cite me the resolution or any explanatory letter, where it is mentioned that PA is allowed to 'remain present anywhere deemed necessary' including 'areas of GB and AK'.

Meanwhile, can you please explain how does the freedom of population of the evacuated territories to pursue 'legitimate political activities' translates into vesting in the GoP, 'the authority to govern these territories', when GoP itself, is required by UNSC resolution of 13th Aug, 1948 to completely remove 'the tribesmen and Pakistan nationals' and withdraw all its military from Kashmir.

Also do explain how PA was supposed to take care of AJK's defense once Pakistan had withdrawn all its nationals and military.

 

[genmirajborgza786]

Well it was not us who denied visa to a war criminal and another indian national....

First, it the visa was not denied by the US, by Canada.

Ok, so now have the gotten the guts to show your true face by saying that whatever you do is just superficial and just a hogwash. Well, not surprised, international politics work that way, but then i am worried about the american people who claim their basis from freedom, justice and truth! Poor people!

BTW, arent we people talking Kashmir here?

dont try to stretch your nose where it wont fit. We have already appologized to india we have moved on

Friday, May 28, 2010 11:33 AM

Tories apologize to India over visa feud
Campbell Clark

The Harper government has issued a groveling apology to India in a spat that began when Canadian visa officers barred several members of the country’s security agencies from coming here.

New Delhi had summoned Canada’s high commissioner to lodge a protest over the rejection of Indians who had worked for its army or intelligence services in the contested Kashmir region – which the Canadian visa officers termed notoriously violent.

Immigration Minister Jason Kenney issued a statement Friday saying Canada works closely on security matters with India.

“The Government of Canada therefore deeply regrets the recent incident in which letters drafted by public service officials during routine visa refusals to Indian nationals cast false aspersions on the legitimacy of work carried out by Indian defence and security institutions, which operate under the framework of democratic processes and the rule of law,” Mr. Kenney said in the statement.

“This language, or the inaccurate impression it has created, in no way reflects the policy or position of the Government of Canada.”

Mr. Kenney said non-political civil servants review visa requests, but the incident showed they have too much latitude. He said the government’s whole policy on judging whether people should be admitted to Canada is now being reviewed.

Mr. Kenney’s own office is already being accused in the Federal Court of Canada of manipulating the same sections of the immigration law to bar controversial British MP George Galloway from entering Canada. He was judged a member of a terror group for leading a “Viva Palestina” aid convoy to Hamas-controlled Gaza. Mr. Kenney’s office denies claims it interfered politically to keep Mr. Galloway out.

Tories apologize to India over visa feud - The Globe and Mail.

Visa rejection: Canada reviewing situation

The Hindu : News / National : Visa rejection: Canada reviewing situation

Visa row ends: Canada regrets, India says chapter closed

Visa row ends: Canada regrets, India says chapter closed-Visa Power-Travel-Services-News By Industry-News-The Economic Times

India, Canada put visa spat behind them
India, Canada put visa spat behind them

we are not interested in pakistan administered northern areas & azad kashmir ' nor indian administered jammu & kashmir.

 

[Xeric]

NA and AK are part of Pakistan just like any other province/city and it can send whatever it likes there. None of your business. It is india who needs to prove its illegal occupation or Kashmir and illegitimate claim over NA and AK, not us, so there is nothing that requires a proof, you pathetic attempt to show us Pakistan on the receiving end is hereby ignored.

--------
Anywaz, apart from the above statement there's something i like to share for those who are habitually sickened by delusive contentment:

Historically The Gilgit and Northern Areas have never been part of Jammu and Kashmir.

In 1935, the British demanded J&K lease to them for 60 years Gilgit town plus most of the Gilgit Agency and the hill-states Hunza, Nagar, Yasin and Ishkuman. The leased region was then treated as part of British India, administered by a Political Agent at Gilgit responsible to Delhi, first through the Resident in J& K and later a British Agent in Peshawar. J& K State no longer kept troops in Gilgit and a force, the Gilgit Scouts, was recruited with British officers and paid for by Delhi.

On 31 July, the Governor arrived to find “all the officers of the British Government had opted for service in Pakistan”. The Gilgit Scouts’ commander, a Major William Brown aged 25, and his adjutant, a Captain Mathieson, planned openly to engineer a coup détat against Hari Singh’s Government. Between August and October, Gilgit was in uneasy calm. At midnight on 31 October 1947, the Governor was surrounded by the Scouts and the next day he was “arrested” and a provisional government declared.

Hari Singh’s nearest forces were at Bunji, 34 miles from Gilgit, a few miles downstream from where the Indus is joined by Gilgit River. The 6th J& K Infantry Battalion there was a mixed Sikh-Muslim unit, typical of the State’s Army, commanded by a Lt Col. Majid Khan. Bunji controlled the road to Srinagar. Further upstream was Skardu, capital of Baltistan, part of Laddakh District where there was a small garrison.

On 4 November 1947, Brown raised the new Pakistani flag in the Scouts’ lines, and by the third week of November a Political Agent from Pakistan had established himself at Gilgit. Brown had engineered Gilgit and its adjoining states to first secede from J&K, and, after some talk of being independent, had promptly acceded to Pakistan.

According to Alister Lamb a noted historian of Kashmir, the actions of India have cast several doubts on the article of accession. The events as noted by several Indian historians do not make sense. Recently both the timing of the event as well as the intentions of the Indian National Congress have come under close scrutiny. India’s claim to accession is in dispute. The U.N. recognized the dispute, and treats Kashmir as disputed territory between India and Pakistan.

According to Alister Lamb, the Northern Areas rose up in revolt against the Dogra rule before the annexation that supposedly was signed between the Dogras and India. This makes them independent of the rest of Kashmir and the accession document does not apply to them. The article of accession was never given to Pakistan or the United Nations. India now claims that the “article of accession” is lost if it ever existed. There are several errors in the published version of the article of accession. The dates do not match and show that the Indian forces had moved into Srinagar before the article had been “signed”.?Pakistan?s 5th province?: ?Gilgit-Baltistan has no connection to Kashmir? | Pakistan Daily http://independentindian.com/2009/02/18/a-brief-history-of-gilgit/

 

[Materialistic]

Scenario 5,6 are impossible to happen since its impossible for such a small state to independently state to exist in Nuclear Giants with such pushing each other over the map.

 

[ejaz007]

Singh’s Kashmir plan in shambles

* Progress report says only half of 67 projects sanctioned by Indian prime minister in 2004 completed

By Iftikhar Gilani

NEW DELHI: While the Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh begins his Srinagar visit on Monday, the Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) submitted to him an unflattering report on the progress of a Rs 240 billion reconstruction plan the PM announced six years ago to fast-track development in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK).

The report on gross delays on part of the state government in implementing projects under the PM’s plan has been prepared by the Delivery Monitoring Unit (DMU).

The unit was set up in the PMO under the PM’s Principal Secretary TKA Nair to keep track of the United Progressive Alliance government’s flagship programmes.

Completion: The report said that only half of the 67 projects that Singh sanctioned during his two-day trip to Srinagar in November 2004 have so far been completed.

These include the expansion of the economic infrastructure to provide basic services and enhance local employment opportunities for victims of militancy and families uprooted from the Kashmir valley.

Singh’s reconstruction plan included a project to bring electricity to all villages in IHK by March 2010, but the state government now says it will only be completed by March 2012.

The DMU report said only 40 percent work had been done until now on the project, for which an agreement was signed between the IHK government and the National Hydro Power Corporation back in 2005.

“The state government has noted the concern of the ministry of power regarding slow progress, security and non- availability of manpower,” the report said.

The PM’s plan included upgradation of the Jammu Medical College to All India Institute of Medical Sciences. The DMU report added that progress on this was so slow that it could not meet the target date.

The Indian government had deposited Rs 27.6 million in 2006-07 for land acquisition required for the Uri-Salamabad-Kamanpost road project, but the land was yet to be handed over to the Border Road Organisation, which was to construct the road up to the Line of Control.

“There is no progress since last review dated May 31, 2009. The chief secretary has agreed to review all land acquisition cases. No progress report has been received by the state government,” the DMU said.

It also lamented that another road project for providing access to Swalkot was sanctioned at an estimated cost of Rs 1.19 billion, but there was hardly any progress on the project.

Also, the power transmission and distribution network involving 67 schemes (32 grid stations and 35 transmission lines) was facing similar slow progress, the report added.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

 

[toxic_pus]

NA and AK are part of Pakistan just like any other province/city and it can send whatever it likes there. None of your business. It is india who needs to prove its illegal occupation or Kashmir and illegitimate claim over NA and AK, not us, so there is nothing that requires a proof, you pathetic attempt to show us Pakistan on the receiving end is hereby ignored.

To this I will say the same thing I had said to a friend of yours a while back.

This is called cognitive dissonance. A self-serving version of ‘reality’ has been drip fed to you by your State and you have convinced yourself that it is the truth. So when you are faced with the real ‘reality’ that completely contradicts your perceived ‘reality’, it becomes difficult, if not impossible, for you to rationalize the dichotomy between what you perceive it should be and what you see it really is. Instinctively, you just reject the real ‘reality’, out of hand and cling on to your perception, because it is easier for you to rationalize your perception than the dichotomy.

Historically The Gilgit and Northern Areas have never been part of Jammu and Kashmir.

In 1935, the British demanded J&K lease to them for 60 years Gilgit town plus most of the Gilgit Agency and the hill-states Hunza, Nagar, Yasin and Ishkuman. The leased region was then treated as part of British India, administered by a Political Agent at Gilgit responsible to Delhi, first through the Resident in J& K and later a British Agent in Peshawar. J& K State no longer kept troops in Gilgit and a force, the Gilgit Scouts, was recruited with British officers and paid for by Delhi.
?Pakistan?s 5th province?: ?Gilgit-Baltistan has no connection to Kashmir? | Pakistan Daily A Brief History of Gilgit Independent Indian: Work & Life of Dr Subroto Roy

It appears that your appetite for embarrassment is insatiable.

Firstly, Article 2 of the Lease agreement recognizes that Gilgit was part of ‘dominions of His Highness, the Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir’ and undertakes, accordingly to ‘honour’ the tradition of the land and to hoist ‘the flag of His-Highness’ at the ‘official headquarters of the Agency, throughout the year’. It reads:

In recognition of the fact that the said territory continues to be included within the dominions of His Highness the Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir, salutes and customary honours shall be paid in the said territory by the administration on the occasion of the birth day of His Highness, Baisakhi, Dussehra, Basant Panchmi and on such other occasions as may be agreed upon by His Highness and the Viceroy and the Governor-General of India. The flag of His-Highness will be flown at the official headquarters of the Agency throughout the year.​

Clearly, except for restricting it, the lease didn't end Maharaja's sovereignty over Gilgit. Also, the fact that the Brits took the lease from the Maharaja and not from any Afghans, Pathans, Sikhs or any pink giraffe under my bed, is an attestation of Maharaja's ownership of Gilgit.

Secondly, the lease agreement was officially terminated on 1st August, 1947, just before the transfer of power and Gilgit reverted back to the Maharaja. So when the Maharaja signed the Instrument of Accession he had complete ownership of Gilgit and as such the legal rights passed over to India on signing of the Instrument.

Thirdly, even if the lease agreement hadn’t been terminated just before the date of transfer of power, it still wouldn’t have made any difference, because according to Section 7(1)(b) of Indian Independence Act, 1947, all outstanding agreements between the British India and the Princely States stood automatically terminated.

For an even better and thorough debunking of your amusing claim, you may read this.

So soldier boy, are we done yet?