The future of Islam is not in the middle east, it's in Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, Senegal, by Reza

[jammersat]

What an unholy union

 

[pursuit of happiness]

This Farsi struggles with math it seems. That are 450 million Arabs. Over 90% of them are Muslims. That's well over 400 million Muslims. It's by far the biggest Muslim ethnic group in the world. There are about 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. You make the math. At least 20%.

Islam's 3 holliest places are also found in the Arab world. 5 if you include Karbala and Najaf for our Shia friends.

His claim is like saying that the "future" of Judaism is in New York City and not Israel.

--
with all that good stuff.
Do arab follow true islam ?
Do SA follow true islam ?
What Arab did to spread islam and eradicate its shortcoming in practics .. ?
how arab helped muslim brother in need and west attack on mulsim country ?
--
Please let me know

 

[T-Rex]

Thats your definition which is not even close to what secularism means.

That's the definition of suckularism I've borrowed from your ram babajis in power.

 

[haviZsultan]

--
i read Jiinah was secular but Iqbal was.. ? i never know
if both were seculare .. as top 2 natioanl builders ...
why then Islamic republic of pak and not secular

That is the tragedy of my country. Even mentioning secularism feels like (for them) that we are pulling them away from Islam. The two (Islam and secularism) are perfectly compatible and can work alongside each other. Plus its the solution to our terrorism problem.

 

[pursuit of happiness]

That is the tragedy of my country. Even mentioning secularism feels like (for them) that we are pulling them away from Islam. The two (Islam and secularism) are perfectly compatible and can work alongside each other. Plus its the solution to our terrorism problem.

--
true..
but is their any is system -country where islam and secularism folowd.. may be tueky but they also goin toward islam side
--
Terrosiam nothing to do with islam
its unholy combination pak estabslihment who used islam for some nationa intresert of pak

 

[KingMamba]

even if they were elected purely democratically, Egyptian people did not want them anymore. So, they needed to go.

Which is what next elections are for.

That is the tragedy of my country. Even mentioning secularism feels like (for them) that we are pulling them away from Islam. The two (Islam and secularism) are perfectly compatible and can work alongside each other. Plus its the solution to our terrorism problem.

Yeah because telling the terrorists that Pakistan is secular now will stop their demands for an Islamic state? Especially considering they already say Pakistan is a fake Islamic republic anyway.

Cenk is the biggest cheerleader of that guy although he is agnostic

Cenk is agnostic but even he says that most of his family are Muslims so obviously that plays a part in the way he feels about certain things. I remember he got really emotional in one segment because he was just thinking how much some people hate Muslims and he was like wow they would hate my mother just because she is a practicing Muslim.

 

[rmi5]

Which is what next elections are for.

He wanted to destroy the constitution. So, it could not happen. Mursi was a dictator goon. Hopefully he got removed soon, before making more damages.

Egypt is an ancient country, with an astonishing historical heritage. It was very sad for me to see a goon like Mursi, ruling the Egypt.

 

[Norwegian]

Funny. Wherever Islam failed to destroy existing civilizations are given as 'future' of Islam

 

[KingMamba]

He wanted to destroy the constitution. So, it could not happen. Mursi was a dictator goon. Hopefully he got removed soon, before making more damages.

Egypt is an ancient country, with an astonishing historical heritage. It was very sad for me to see a goon like Mursi, to rule Egypt.

Egypt had no constitution, afaik he was trying to implement a new one that many did not agree with but quite frankly his rule was only a stop gap. The reason the MB won was because their opponents were members of Mubaraks old regime, by the time the next elections rolled around there would have been more options in terms of parties for Egyptians. Anyway most Egyptians I have come across here had those R4bia stickers on their doors and windows and were obviously anti coup and the ones I spoken to were also anti coup. My Coptic friends were more on the fence as I figured they would be.

 

[rmi5]

Egypt had no constitution, afaik he was trying to implement a new one that many did not agree with but quite frankly his rule was only a stop gap. The reason the MB won was because their opponents were members of Mubaraks old regime, by the time the next elections rolled around there would have been more options in terms of parties for Egyptians. Anyway most Egyptians I have come across here had those R4bia stickers on their doors and windows and were obviously anti coup and the ones I spoken to were also anti coup. My Coptic friends were more on the fence as I figured they would be.

My experience with Egyptians has been different. They were happy that Mursi is gone.
Anyway, I rest the case to @Frogman and @Mahmoud_EGY

 

[KingMamba]

Funny. Wherever Islam failed to destroy existing civilizations are given as 'future' of Islam

Funnier yet that you seem to be ignorant about how much of a role Islam plays in the lives of Malays or even in Indonesia itself. Not to mention in Senegal Islam also plays a huge role in the form of sufi orders as every Muslim follows their own Sheikhs. If you know about Sufism then you know in the life of a Sufi Muslim there is a lot more to just praying 5 times a day and as such Islam would play a much bigger part in their lives than those of most orthodox Muslims.

Only Turkey you can perhaps say Islam plays a little role in their day to day lives but it is debatable whether or not Islam tried to destroy their civilization or if it a part of their civilization. I guess Kemalists would certainly agree.

As for you I guess you can follow the ancient Pakistani civilization over there in Norway, as soon as you decipher the Indus scripts and figure out what exactly it entails that is.

 

[haviZsultan]

Funnier yet that you seem to be ignorant about how much of a role Islam plays in the lives of Malays or even in Indonesia itself. Not to mention in Senegal Islam also plays a huge role in the form of sufi orders as every Muslim follows their own Sheikhs. If you know about Sufism then you know in the life of a Sufi Muslim there is a lot more to just praying 5 times a day and as such Islam would play a much bigger part in their lives than those of most orthodox Muslims.

Only Turkey you can perhaps say Islam plays a little role in their day to day lives but it is debatable whether or not Islam tried to destroy their civilization or if it a part of their civilization. I guess Kemalists would certainly agree.

As for you I guess you can follow the ancient Pakistani civilization over there in Norway, as soon as you decipher the Indus scripts and figure out what exactly it entails that is.

What about central asian states like Uzbekistan which are secular and have 98% population educated. Universal education is common in largely secular nations. We should move towards secularism. Plus you are living in a secular country and reaping the benefits yourself otherwise you wouldn't be so loyal to America which has screwed up the rest of the Muslim world, yet you want mullah rule over us.

Islam and secularism are perfectly compatible. There is no reason Islamic ideals cannot be practiced in a secular society. I will give you one example a secular mindset gives. My mother was in a gym in Canada and requested to pray there. She was given permission. Imagine a Hindu worshipping without fear in Pakistan.

We need to create a system that gives each citizen equal rights. Our people do not want to give their girls the gift of education because of narrow mindedness and we are one of the most illiterate countries in the world. Secularism is the only way forward for us.

 

[Norwegian]

Funnier yet that you seem to be ignorant about how much of a role Islam plays in the lives of Malays or even in Indonesia itself. Not to mention in Senegal Islam also plays a huge role in the form of sufi orders as every Muslim follows their own Sheikhs. If you know about Sufism then you know in the life of a Sufi Muslim there is a lot more to just praying 5 times a day and as such Islam would play a much bigger part in their lives than those of most orthodox Muslims.

Nonsense. Religion and politics is BS!

Only Turkey you can perhaps say Islam plays a little role in their day to day lives but it is debatable whether or not Islam tried to destroy their civilization or if it a part of their civilization. I guess Kemalists would certainly agree.

Look at present state of the Middle East on how Islam destroyed cradle of civilizations!!!

As for you I guess you can follow the ancient Pakistani civilization over there in Norway, as soon as you decipher the Indus scripts and figure out what exactly it entails that is.

LOL

 

[KingMamba]

What about central asian states like Uzbekistan which are secular and have 98% population educated. Universal education is common in largely secular nations. We should move towards secularism. Plus you are living in a secular country and reaping the benefits yourself otherwise you wouldn't be so loyal to America which has screwed up the rest of the Muslim world, yet you want mullah rule over us.

Islam and secularism are perfectly compatible. There is no reason Islamic ideals cannot be practiced in a secular society. I will give you one example a secular mindset gives. My mother was in a gym in Canada and requested to pray there. She was given permission. Imagine a Hindu worshipping without fear in Pakistan.

We need to create a system that gives each citizen equal rights. Our people do not want to give their girls the gift of education because of narrow mindedness and we are one of the most illiterate countries in the world. Secularism is the only way forward for us.

Prove that I want Mullah rule over Pakistan or else you are slandering me and issue a retraction. Go ahead find one post where I said mullahs should rule Pakistan.

You did not answer my question, my question was simple you said secularism would solve terrorism my point is would TTP throw down their arms if secularism was implemented or would it embolden them? Uzbekistan went through harsh commie rule for years on end before they became secularist governments and they too have a movement which you have probably heard of since the cadres of said movement were based in Pakistani tribal areas.

Nonsense. Religion and politics is BS!


Look at present state of the Middle East on how Islam destroyed cradle of civilizations!!!


LOL

Nice rebuttal , really I look at the middle east and I see how outside interference has led to the toppling of governments and a power vacuum that gave the crazies room to grow and flourish.

 

[haviZsultan]

Prove that I want Mullah rule over Pakistan or else you are slandering me and issue a retraction. Go ahead find one post where I said mullahs should rule Pakistan.

You did not answer my question, my question was simple you said secularism would solve terrorism my point is would TTP throw down their arms if secularism was implemented or would it embolden them? Uzbekistan went through harsh commie rule for years on end before they became secularist governments and they too have a movement which you have probably heard of since the cadres of said movement were based in Pakistani tribal areas.



Nice rebuttal , really I look at the middle east and I see how outside interference has led to the toppling of governments and a power vacuum that gave the crazies room to grow and flourish.

I am not slandering you but stating facts which might be painful for you.

The Taliban are animals. They would fight us regardless of the fact we declare ourselves a secular state or declare ourselves mullah republic of Pakistan because our version of Islam will never be compatible with them. They simply do not believe in modern theries like guys and girls hanging around together, jinai women going out of their houses or being married when they are older. Pakistan has already tried Zia Ul Haq. This is my article on secularism and explains my take on the matter perfectly.

Why do we fear Secularism?

By Havi Z Sultan

Many Pakistanis have a built in aversion towards the word secularism while taking an excessive pride in the Islamic Republic attached to Pakistan’s name. Despite the fact that many Pakistanis fail to follow the tenets of Islam and the word Islamic Republic makes a mockery of the meaning it remains a source of excessive pride. Scholars claim that today the country is very far from Islam because very few people in Pakistan really follow the tenets of Islam however very few of them can answer the question whether it's worthwhile to have an “Islamic Republic” only in name. However the real question is do we really have anything to fear from Secularism in the first place?

According to its dictionary meaning Secularism refers to the equal treatment of each and every religious group within the Nation and to the idea that religion should have a smaller role in politics and decision making because when it has too large a role people spend their time over their own separate interpretations of religion rather than Nation building and the tasks at hand.

Many Muslims in Pakistan fear secularism because they have a perverse idea of the concept fearing Islam will be diminished with Secularism. This is completely untrue. Pakistan’s Islamic identity will not be lost with a Secular system.

Will Secularism decrease Islam’s value in Pakistan?

Many Pakistanis continually fear that secularism will decrease Islam's value or worse will eliminate Islam from Pakistan.

The fact is no one is pushing Islam away and with 95% of the population of Pakistan being proud and extremely pious Muslims for the most part it is impossible to even try. Islam will still be practiced by the majority of people as it is being practiced today without any hindrance whatsoever. The only difference perhaps will be that religion will be a personal matter. A person who does not follow Islam devotedly or a follower of a different religion or a sect of Islam will not be persecuted for having his own separate beliefs.

If seen in such a light Secularism is nothing to be feared. We can be proud Muslims and defend Islam as much or even more with a secular constitution as we can by labelling a country ruled by very corrupt people with barely any link to Islam an “Islamic Republic”. An Islamic Republic where the rulers themselves have no link to Islam and others often use religion as a tool to fulfill their personal interests.

The fact is that a country that calls itself an Islamic Republic should have a constitution, laws (that are implemented instead of being cleared by people who can pay bribes), rules and regulations based on the tenets of Islam. A country lacking the Islamic economic and judicial system based on the teachings of the Prophet can't be an Islamic Republic. It's not that Pakistanis haven't tried. If proof is needed one needs to look at Zia's Islamicization. Pakistanis have tried to impose Islam in letter and spirit for 60 years and failed. It's more than time we revised our direction.

The tenets of Islam support Secularism & harmony

“To you be your Faith, and to me mine.”

Ayat 109:6

During the rule of Ali Ibn Abi Talib the fourth Caliph of Islam a Jew stole a shield that belonged to the Caliph and claimed that it was his. He was brought to the court of Ali to settle the dispute. However due to lack of proof and according to Islamic law the Jew was allowed to keep the shield as Hazrat Ali could not prove he owned the shield. This was a verdict going against a Muslim Caliph in his own court. However Hazrat Ali accepted the decision calmly. On the other hand the Jew was dumbfounded as he had indeed stolen the shield. He was quick to embrace Islam and declared that he had lied in front of the entire court.

This was one example of how Islam spread to become one of the largest religions in the World and won hearts and minds. It was due to the insight and tolerance our ancestors had that we got to where we are, that Cordova and Baghdad became centres of learning and Islam spread from the corners of Spain to the boundaries of the far east.

Unfortunately many people in Pakistan do not understand that human rights and the equal treatment of all individuals in the country is more important in Islam rather than a notion of Islamic pride and superiority where labelling a country an “Islamic Republic” is deemed necessary. This pride comes from a past that our ancestors built with policies that we fail to understand today.

The Quaid E Azams Principles

“In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State — to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non- Muslims — Hindus, Christians, and Parsis — but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.”

Quaid E Azam, February 1948

The above quote is the greatest proof that Quaid E Azam did not want a state that was built solely on the basis of religion. Unfortunately since his death the constitution has been changed to suit every new leader that came and the title “Islamic Republic” untrue it may be has been added along with many laws that are completely out of line with Quaid E Azam's original ideas for Pakistan. If we look closely at many of his speeches we will notice Quaid E Azam was a staunch supporter of secularism with an added focus on Islamic thought and ideology. Therefore until he was alive the Islamic Republic was never attached to the countries name. That happened when Ayub Khan came into power.

Other speeches by Quaid E Azam that clearly supported the message of peace, harmony and equality between all groups whether they are ethnic or religious are stated below.

‘We are starting with the fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one state. No matter what is his colour, caste or creed is first, second and last a citizen of this state with equal rights, privileges and obligations….”

“In due course of time Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be Muslims – not in a religious sense for that is the personal faith of an individual- but in a political sense as citizens of one state.”

“[If you] work together in a spirit that everyone of you no matter what is his colour, caste or creed, is first, second and last a citizen of this state with equal rights, privileges and obligations, there will be no end to the progress you will make.”

11 August 1947

“The tenets of Islam enjoin on every Musalman to give protection to his neighbours and to the Minorities regardless of caste and creed. We must make it a matter of our honor and prestige to create sense of security amongst them.”

30th October 1947

Clearly Quaid E Azam understood that a Nation could not be built until differences were eliminated and people saws themselves as equal members of a single society regardless of faith or ethnicity.

Perhaps if that spirit was alive today Pakistan would not be afflicted with minor issues and infighting over Shia-Sunni, Barelvi-Deobandi, Wahabi-Mainstream Muslim, and the principles of personal freedom would have given way to building a Nation that was the most glorious one in history. Unfortunately this destiny still awaits the Pakistani race which dreams for justice and equality. Many conservatives continuously deny Quaid E Azam wanted a secular country believing that such a concept is against Islam when it is not. Perhaps they fear for their own interests but Quaid E Azam did indeed want a Nation that was Secular or Socialist and gave equal opportunity to all inhabitants.

People try to deny this but the fact is, being Muslims this is not something for us to be ashamed of but something glorious. That a leader who did so much for Muslims, gave them a new homeland and independence, still understood the morals of our ancestors because of whom Islam to spread is truly remarkable.

Issues caused by the misinterpretation of Islamic Law & resources used to contain them

The fact that laws created to safeguard Islam are being used for the benefit and self interest of bad people does not do anything great for the image of Islam. A clear example is the blasphemy law, a law that makes an insult to Islam, the Prophet or the Quran illegal and punishable by death. This law has been used against minorities for a long time. However Muslims have fallen victims to this law as well.

An example of how this law is misused was the case of Mohammad Imran who was arrested in Faisalabad for blasphemy on the 28th of October 2007. He was falsely blamed because of a personal argument. After being arrested he was first tortured by the police, then the inmates and later he was placed in solitary confinement without anyone looking after his injuries. He was only released in April 2009 after being declared innocent.

Another example was the framing of Akhtar Hammed Khan, an 81 year old writer and sociologist by business interests and authorities unwilling to let his development work take place in Orangi, Karachi. He had launched a development project on the behalf of the people of Orangi. His project offering real estate loans on good terms and work to improve the condition of women through education, and access to employment and family planning was not well-liked by these authorities. Thus they decided to book him on false charges with the police under the blasphemy laws. He was later released due to inadequate evidence but the case proves how the law is being used to settle personal scores and disputes.

Minorities have many such stories to share as 60% of all victims who are framed under this law are Non Muslims. The law has become a tool for fanatics, murderers and people seeking to settle personal scores yet the law still hasn’t been repealed due to the fact that militants have some influence on governance. Land disputes or personal quarrels are by far the main reason for people to be booked under this law.

Another such law is the Hudood Ordinance where in a case of Rape four witnesses are required to confirm that a rape has taken place. This is practically impossible. However the woman who complains that a rape has taken place is often booked for being with another man while the culprits of the rape run free.

Therefore the Hudood Law became a tool in the hands of rapists and today any woman can be raped. But when she goes to the police to get justice the Hudood Law can be used to frame her because by claiming that she has been raped she also admits that she has been with another man and committed Zinah. Some figures claim that in the year 1979 there were only 70 women in Pakistani jails. A decade later, in 1988, this figure had risen to 6000 and over 80% of the women in prison were there because of these laws. It is said many more women do not even report rapes in fear of being persecuted due to this law.

Is Pakistan really Islamic?

Better to have a Secular constitution than Islam only in name

There is no doubt that our leaders found us a land that was a safe haven for Muslims and gave us freedom to make our own decisions without the fear of suffering biased treatment for the faith we followed. However the question today is how much Islam is being followed in the country?

For instance the Quran states “Keep yourselves away from bribes because it is kufr and one who receives them will never smell the scent of paradise”. The fact is in Pakistan taking and giving bribes is so common that even a noble person can hardly live without paying one. Some honourable folk still struggle on but their lives are much more difficult. If a person has money it is a possibility he has given or taken a bribe at least once. Unfortunately the entire bureaucracy is at the forefront of this rot. Justice is sold and witnesses can be bought.

On the other hand while drinking is not allowed and a license is required in order to drink in Pakistan, people who want to drink do so with impunity and with no fear of being punished. The law is not even being implemented while if a drunkard happens to get caught a simple bribe wins back the persons freedom. On the other hand while adultery is considered a punishable law under the constitution it is practiced by many people in the country without any fear of punishment. The same goes for many other laws. It is virtually impossible to implement these laws and it costs resources to do so.

The fact is many laws related to Islam exist in Pakistan but they are there only in name. They are either being misused by people for their own interests or they are not implemented and people who commit heinous crimes are allowed to go free because of them, without any fear of punishment while the innocent are framed.

The real question for Pakistan today is whether it is sensible to have a false, broken and corrupt “Islamic Republic” in name or is it better to have a secular constitution that guarantees freedom to everyone and ensures that there are no vaguely addressed laws that make a mockery of our religion and are misused for the benefit of a few criminals.

It explains my view on the matter perfectly. You did not respond to my question. Why live in the US when you don't believe in secular society. I am very anti american but I know many people loyal to it and their reasons are the same. Question them why and they will tell you whatever they do across the world within their country they have a system which treats each of them as equal-as a secular society they have given you respect and you respect them in return. In our country we are focused on imposing not religion but our version of Islam.

In an Islamic republic who can say who's Islam is right? Mine or yours or the Talibans. It is impossible. Then there is the Shia and Sunni view. If we impose one view on the other it will be unfair. If in the time taken to impose religion we separated church and state we wouldn't have this problem. Also if we have a fund for Haj why do we not have a fund for Pakistani Hindus yatra? The system is glaringly unfair Mambi, try to understand this.

The amount of tolerance shown to you in a secular society is incomparable elsewhere. That is why you are in America to reap its benefits.