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The funniest Darism till date - To beg IMF on my own terms

500 Billion is just the circular debt that we owe to petro companies. Actual public debt is hovering around ~7000 Billion

You do realize that 'public' debt is not the responsibility of the state, I thought you were some sort of a financial expert??

It is actually the foreign and domestic debt that counts, which is actually the responsibility of the federal Government.



Had they been wary of N and PPP, whats stopping them in KPK? An interesting term has been coined for Expats,"Good for remittances only."

Honestly, if the system is weak at the core, there is no point strengthening any weak side. The core needs to be fixed first. Federal Government is where the system needs to be fixed.
 
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You do realize that 'public' debt is not the responsibility of the state, I thought you were some sort of a financial expert?? It is actually the foreign and domestic debt that counts, which is actually the responsibility of the federal Government.
Do you know the concept of implicit and explicit sovereign backing and guarantee? Okey just tell me whats the difference between the debt of Gene mae's and Fannie Mae's debt and why do they behave similarly despite having corporate differences. Okey lets qoute an example of Pakistan. Do you know how PSE's debt is issued and who owns implicit obligation to that debt?


Honestly, if the system is weak at the core, there is no point strengthening any weak side. The core needs to be fixed first. Federal Government is where the system needs to be fixed.
And the point is?
 
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Well why didn't musharraf take action against the dam grand mansions of london if they were from "looted money"? The "pakeezgi" of his merrymen is still an example.

Most likely because of the deal that Musharraf had to offer NS because of Saudi intervention.



The jadoo of financial wizard of musharraf was that he, instead of going to IMF, borrowed from foreign commercial banks (e.g. Citibank etc) albeit expensively and told the nation that they have got rid of IMF:yahoo:. Moreover, the raised money through issuing bonds in international markets (which trade in junk status these days) which was always risky for a country with negative external profile so the problems on the external front were amplified covertly and the nation was kept in dark.

Musharraf must have been a financial wizard alright since he was able to actually lower foreign debt and eliminate domestic debt. During his tenure, the debt had been reduced to roughly USD 30 Billion from USD 40-45 Billion (from memory) that was left by NS. Furthermore, NS left the USD at 84/Rupee which was pulled back by Musharraf to Rs. 60. If my calculations are correct, Musharraf put us in a position where our foreign debt had been reduced to PKR 1800 Billion!!!



On domestic front, the wizard tried to implement demand model by keeping interest rates near zero and artificially inflating the incomes of people through encouraging personal,car,home lending. However, the real incomes of people didn't grow and the bubble went burst as the rising inflation prompted SBP to raise interest rates. The deliquancies increased, banks booked losses, producers postponed their expansion plans and we ended and Pakistan was back to recession just like "Jithay de se khoti, othay e aan khaloti."

So Musharraf was actually making people poorer by lowering taxes, lowering interest rates, lowering USD, giving massive subsidies on everyday commodities and electricity and in general by allowing the common man access to personal transport, accommodation, mobile and financial security? Hmm.....



By increasing development expenditure just like Dar did. There is no economic progress without investments and peace. And thanks to Musharraf Bhai for taking away both!

Would you like to compare the total investments under Musharraf and after him, please?? We can, then, safely terminate this argument.



Even more, because debt is not the only problem, peace and security is also necessary for good economic growth. War-ridden countries don't grow at 6-7%.

Partially correct. We were still progressing @ 7% in 2005. However, unfortunately, this war was thrust upon us and we were, are and will remain a part of it whether we like it, want it or not. Had the political magicians been unable to garner the kind of support they did ever since 2005/06, Pakistan would have been in a much much better position today.


Check the link again.

Do you know the concept of implicit and explicit sovereign backing and guarantee? Okey just tell me whats the difference between the debt of Gene mae's and Fannie Mae's debt and why do they behave similarly despite having corporate differences. Okey lets qoute an example of Pakistan. Do you know how PSE's debt is issued and who owns implicit obligation to that debt?

A simple "I have no response to that argument" would have sufficed.



And the point is?

Point is, majority of Pakistan still voted for PML/PPP, if we ourselves aren't willing to change our bad habits, why should the expats bother?
 
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It is so painful to see my fellow countrymen so disillusioned that most of the times it is pointless to even read their posts. I mean, what were our options, really????



You forgot the many other mills and factories, steel mills, sugar foundries, qarz utaro mulk sanwaro, yellow cabs, duty free import of luxurious cars for just a month and so on....

then i will be blamed for derailing of thread?
 
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I made some arguments, If you have anything against them, please bring forth. Argument for argument, logic for logic and evidence for evidence is the essence of discussion.

sure!
with all the experties of mr dar would you be able to enlighten us!
with all of his super brain options could he or pmln s can bring down the ruppes to 70 against dollors if not why?
isnt i made it simple?
 
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Musharraf must have been a financial wizard alright since he was able to actually lower foreign debt and eliminate domestic debt. During his tenure, the debt had been reduced to roughly USD 30 Billion from USD 40-45 Billion (from memory) that was left by NS. Furthermore, NS left the USD at 84/Rupee which was pulled back by Musharraf to Rs. 60. If my calculations are correct, Musharraf put us in a position where our foreign debt had been reduced to PKR 1800 Billion!!!

Lol, Jhoot ki b koi had hotti hey.. When NS left Dollar was 57 not 84, it once touched 65 for a day, but afterwards it dropped. Also you calculation is wrong, since foreign debit reduction was started from NS era, and Musharraf continued same while selling Pakistani assets for pennies. Steel Mills was the full stop for him. back then...
 
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Most likely because of the deal that Musharraf had to offer NS because of Saudi intervention.
And commando succumbed to Saudis, Just like he did to India in Kargil?





Musharraf must have been a financial wizard alright since he was able to actually lower foreign debt and eliminate domestic debt. During his tenure, the debt had been reduced to roughly USD 30 Billion from USD 40-45 Billion (from memory) that was left by NS. Furthermore, NS left the USD at 84/Rupee which was pulled back by Musharraf to Rs. 60. If my calculations are correct, Musharraf put us in a position where our foreign debt had been reduced to PKR 1800 Billion!!!
Here are the figures
1998 23,009 Million USD
1999 26,735
2000 26,589
2001 26,966
2002 27,773
2003 28,487
2004 28,847
2005 29,630
2006 32,550
2007 37,535
2008 39,916
http://www.sbp.org.pk/departments/stats/PakEconomy_HandBook/Chap-9.4.pdf
And secondly while Mushi maintained this at 60, the forex reserves exhausted in 2007 (as exchange rate inteventions to make it stable at and then came the famous jump to 80+ from 60 within weeks.

So Musharraf was actually making people poorer by lowering taxes, lowering interest rates, lowering USD, giving massive subsidies on everyday commodities and electricity and in general by allowing the common man access to personal transport, accommodation, mobile and financial security? Hmm.....
Direct taxes to total taxes (Direct+Indirect) ratio
1996 29.16%
1997 30.15%
1998 35.14%
1999 35.72%
2000 32.54%
2001 31.76%
2002 35.29%
2003 31.60%
2004 31.67%
2005 30.97%
2006 31.96%
2007 38.19%
2008 38.39%
http://www.sbp.org.pk/departments/stats/PakEconomy_HandBook/Chap-3.1.pdf
So except for last two years Mushi Admin's direct tax/ total tax ratio was lower than where N left it in 1999.

Would you like to compare the total investments under Musharraf and after him, please?? We can, then, safely terminate this argument.
The total investment in one or two year is another thing but was Pakistan economy able to grow at consistent rate of 7% after or before 2006-2007? Two years of outstanding growth and average growth before and after that doesn't mean a sustainable growth. It was also at the Middle of Mushi's government that power crisis started to emerge. Please do enlighten me how many magawatts were added to national grid during his tenure. How much investment in energy sector was made? The economy grows on real production.
 
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Lol, Jhoot ki b koi had hotti hey.. When NS left Dollar was 57 not 84, it once touched 65 for a day, but afterwards it dropped. Also you calculation is wrong, since foreign debit reduction was started from NS era, and Musharraf continued same while selling Pakistani assets for pennies. Steel Mills was the full stop for him. back then...

When Musharraf took power, USD was at 84/$ in effect in the open market. The Government was cashing FCA USD @ Rs. 45/$. Which was the actual price, the open market price or the Government exchange rate?

Take examples of first world countries, the government makes policies and implements them while the private sector runs public utilities such as Gas/Electricity/Telecom etc. Musharraf was on the right track and had he succeed, we'd not only have abundance of electricity (through proper recovery by private companies) but also cheaper electricity (no theft)!!
 
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@hasnain0099,

what happens if the Federal govt. fails (or refuses) to repay the interest on State Bank's loans? What consequences are we looking at?
 
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@hasnain0099,

what happens if the Federal govt. fails (or refuses) to repay the interest on State Bank's loans? What consequences are we looking at?
Federal Government doesn't need to pay any interest on SBP loans. Because whatever government pays in interest is subsequently recieved back in the shape of SBP's income (which is derived from interest on government borrowing). So central bank debt is most lucrative for governments around the world. However, there is a severe downside, debt from central banks causes instantanious injection of High-Powered/Hot money (also called M0 technically) into the system. This causes inflation to rise. So central bank borrowing are virtually free but highly inflationary.
 
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When Musharraf took power, USD was at 84/$ in effect in the open market. The Government was cashing FCA USD @ Rs. 45/$. Which was the actual price, the open market price or the Government exchange rate?

Take examples of first world countries, the government makes policies and implements them while the private sector runs public utilities such as Gas/Electricity/Telecom etc. Musharraf was on the right track and had he succeed, we'd not only have abundance of electricity (through proper recovery by private companies) but also cheaper electricity (no theft)!!

This is open Market

http://www.forex.pk/currency-converter.php?send=Y


and second My father is currency exchange dealer... So I know you are lying..
 
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This is open Market

Currency Converter


and second My father is currency exchange dealer... So I know you are lying..

I don't know what kind of currency exchange dealer your father is, but I know what the rate of USD was in 1999 because we were one of the many affected by the NS govt.'s decision to freeze FCAs. Open market rate went as high as 84 after Kargil & just before Musharraf assumed power.
 
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