The fate of minorities in Pakistan

[Baibars_1260]

Almost every constitution has broadly similar articles, even the Indian and US, but that in no way reflects the realities of how minorities are treated. Theory and practice are two very different things.

We have a problem in Pakistan how we treat our minorities. It is not physical violence so much as economic isolation. A few super-rich doctors and businessman politician families in Sindh and Punjab not withstanding the bulk of our minorities are wretchedly poor. In Thar- Parkar Sindh, both the Tharis and Parkaris are on the brink starvation and with frequent instances of suicides by women unable to feed their young. It is convenient for us to say that the Tharis and Parkaris have their own elected representatives and are free to manage their own affairs so their economic situation is not "our" fault. Political corruption is not restricted by religious or ethnic boundaries. Sometimes a minority must be saved from themselves.

Keeping the Thar-Parkaris in a preserve like Native Americans were kept in America is the vilest degradation of human principles. The difference is that the Native Americans lost the battle, and their lands to white settlers, the Thar Parkaris have been "left " on their land to degenerate into a stone age civilization on starvation levels that rival sub-Saharan Africa.
They are dying of thirst and hunger as climate change has caused a warming of the area and reduced the vegetation on which their goats and cattle grazed. This population badly needs food, drinking water, education and some means of improving their lives. They are human beings and more than a curiosity to be eyed by tourists driving through the area looking at peacocks.

Worst of all now there are reports of religious radical nut heads getting into the act to save their souls from hell, as if they are not in hell already.
The biggest hypocrites are their own lawmakers whom they elect to the reserved seats under our separate minority electorate laws.
These lawmakers once comfortably settled in Islamabad do nothing for their constituents.
The only people speaking up are the left wing NGOs .
We need to abandon separate electorates and instead mandate a law for every political party to have. 5-10 minority candidates from any constituency.

 

[Baibars_1260]

India should treat its minorities well not because it signed some treaty with Pakistan but because they are Indian citizens. Same should be the case with Pakistan, BD or any other country.

Pakistan lost most of it's minority population after the Civil War in 1971.
Pakistan's minority population
dropped from 21% to under 5 % . The bulk of our minorities were left behind in Bangladesh. Pakistan became religiously less diverse, which was a tragedy.
The founder of our nation had not envisaged a theocratic state.
See his 11th August 1947 speech in his own voice here ( Link )

 

[peagle]

We need to abandon separate electorates and instead mandate a law for every political party to have. 5-10 minority candidates from any constituency.

I agree with you 100%, the points in your above post are the actual issues facing our minority brothers and sisters. People make vague statements where the actual issues get lost.

I wanted to discuss just the above quotation.
The separate electorate issue is massively misunderstood in Pakistan across the board. I am shocked by almost everyone.

Pakistan does not have separate electorates, on the contrary, a minority woman has 3 votes and minority men have two votes. There have been a lot of constitutional changes and I do not have a single unified copy of the constitution anymore, the one I do have is a copy from the 1990s.

Allow me to explain.
1. Pakistan has reserved a percentage equal to the population share for the minorities in all assembles.
2. They are also allowed to stand for election in open seats, without any restrictions.
3. Women are also eligible to be appointed to assemblies on seats reserved for women, separate from the above 2 rights.

I have kept track of this issue and I am certain I am right, the previous constitutional amendment made fundamental changes to the constitution but it did not touch any of the rights due to the minorities, so the above rights stand unchanged.

Separate electorates existed in the 1990s, they were changed to reserved seats system, so separate electorates system does not exist. it's a massive misunderstanding of our system.

Under the present system, a male has assured seats in every assembly plus free to stand in an open seat and a woman has a third route into the assemblies. People do not fully understand how many rights have been afforded to the minorities, a lot of efforts have been made.
There is a 2012 policy, already approved, under which minority groups are to be given 5% of government jobs, its a target rather than legislation, but it exists, the minorities make up just under 4% of the population.

The only issue left that needs resolution is the Ahmadi issue, I am sure we will find peace with that as well.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Separate Electorates ( Link )

It is a shame we are persisting with separate electorates , an archaic inherited law from the British era .
This law has only ensured that the same minority lawmakers keep turning up like bad pennies in our National Assembly.
The laws have restricted the minorities from having a free and vocal political voice in our nation.
Instead of having these pipsqueak lawmakers claiming to be the "voice of their people " it is on the ground level that minorities should be knocking on the doors of the powerful majority elected lawmakers who can really help them.
The biggest disgrace to Pakistan is the separate electorates that are a form of political apartheid.

 

[peagle]

Separate Electorates ( Link )

It is a shame we are persisting with separate electorates , an archaic inherited law from the British era .
This law has only ensured that the same minority lawmakers keep turning up like bad pennies in our National Assembly.
The laws have restricted the minorities from having a free and vocal political voice in our nation.
Instead of having these pipsqueak lawmakers claiming to be the "voice of their people " it is on the ground level that minorities should be knocking on the doors of the powerful majority elected lawmakers who can really help them.
The biggest disgrace to Pakistan is the separate electorates that are nothing more than religious and political apartheid.

Come on yaar, at least attempt to understand the issue before posting links to support an incorrect argument, that's not right.

What I have stated above is correct.
What that request deals with is totally different.
They are two different topics, please read your link again, thereafter if you are still confused, please ask and I shall explain.

Hindu women elected on a seat reserved for women in 2018, category 3 mentioned in my above post.
This system has been in place since around the early or mid 2000s.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1393129

 

[Baibars_1260]

I agree with you 100%, the points in your above post are the actual issues facing our minority brothers and sisters. People make vague statements where the actual issues get lost.

I wanted to discuss just the above quotation.
The separate electorate issue is massively misunderstood in Pakistan across the board. I am shocked by almost everyone.

Pakistan does not have separate electorates, on the contrary, a minority woman has 3 votes and minority men have two votes. There have been a lot of constitutional changes and I do not have a single unified copy of the constitution anymore, the one I do have is a copy from the 1990s.

Allow me to explain.
1. Pakistan has reserved a percentage equal to the population share for the minorities in all assembles.
2. They are also allowed to stand for election in open seats, without any restrictions.
3. Women are also eligible to be appointed to assemblies on seats reserved for women, separate from the above 2 rights.

I have kept track of this issue and I am certain I am right, the previous constitutional amendment made fundamental changes to the constitution but it did not touch any of the rights due to the minorities, so the above rights stand unchanged.

Separate electorates existed in the 1990s, they were changed to reserved seats system, so separate electorates system does not exist. it's a massive misunderstanding of our system.

Under the present system, a male has assured seats in every assembly plus free to stand in an open seat and a woman has a third route into the assemblies. People do not fully understand how many rights have been afforded to the minorities, a lot of efforts have been made.
There is a 2012 policy, already approved, under which minority groups are to be given 5% of government jobs, its a target rather than legislation, but it exists, the minorities make up just under 4% of the population.

The only issue left that needs resolution is the Ahmadi issue, I am sure we will find peace with that as well.

I understand the reasons which actually date back to pre-partition and was actually intended by the British to afford proportional representation to the Muslims who were a minority in united India .

Pakistan is a Muslim majority country and we copied those laws into our own election system for own minorities.
People will point a finger next door and say see what happens when majoritarianism takes hold, there isn't a single minority representative in the ruling party either at the Federal or Provincial level. My answer is if the population of the neighboring country goes fascist must we fear going the same way ?
We have NEVER elected a religiously fundamentalist party to power. We are confident in our political system to represent all minorities. In fact ironically when the electoral process was suspended under martial law, the minorities felt safest as our armed forces have little tolerance for religious nut heads.

Come on yaar, at least attempt to understand the issue before posting links to support an incorrect argument, that's not right.

What I have stated above is correct.
What that request deals with is totally different.
They are two different topics, please read your link again, thereafter if you are still confused, please ask and I shall explain.

Hindu women elected on a seat reserved for women in 2018, category 3 mentioned in my above post.
This system has been in place since around the early or mid 2000s.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1393129

Apologies...
My post was independent of your post. I posted it before I read your post. I am hammering my keyboard so fast that our posts crossed.

 

[Itachi]

Buffalo is not male cow. Buffalo is a different mammal. I mentioned already that I do not favor any law for ban but would favor social change to convince everyone to become vegetarian.

I know. He or was it you....still called a bull a buffalo.


Humans aren't vegetarians, we're omnivorous. We have canines....we eat meat. We can't all be veggie loving retards.

 

[peagle]

I understand the reasons which actually date back to pre-partition and was actually intended by the British to afford proportional representation to the Muslims who were a minority in united India .

Pakistan is a Muslim majority country and we copied those laws into our own election system for own minorities.
People will point a finger next door and say see what happens when majoritarianism takes hold, there isn't a single minority representative in the ruling party either at the Federal or Provincial level. My answer is if the population of the neighboring country goes fascist must we fear going the same way ?
We have NEVER elected a religiously fundamentalist party to power. We are confident in our political system to represent all minorities. In fact ironically when the electoral process was suspended under martial law, the minorities felt safest as our armed forces have little tolerance for religious nut heads.

Apologies...
My post was independent of your post. I posted it before I read your post. I am hammering my keyboard so fast that our posts crossed.

I am sorry to say but you do not understand, it is ok to ask, why? I am not making empty statements.
And, you have made a few irrelevant statements that I will answer in the morning. I was having trouble sleeping so still awake lol
but my eyes are shutting now, so feel free to add anything and I shall try to answer in the morning. If you so desire.

 

[Baibars_1260]

What I have stated above is correct.
What that request deals with is totally different.
They are two different topics, please read your link again, thereafter if you are still confused, please ask and I shall explain.

Hindu women elected on a seat reserved for women in 2018, category 3 mentioned in my above post.
This system has been in place since around the early or mid 2000s.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1393129

Reserved Electorates:

It IS a fair system on paper an it is working to the effect that there IS proportional representation but the buck stops there.
Minority lawmakers seldom speak in the NA on any topic other than minority issues and. even then it wasn't until 2017 that the NA passed the Hindu Marriage Bill.
Lawmakers should represent all regardless of religion. Those of us who live abroad in Western democracies, even as non-citizens are represented by elected politicians regardless of race, color or religion. I know this idealistic but we do have sincere lawmakers still who if given a chance will speak up for minorities.

 

[magra]

Pakistan lost most of it's minority population after the Civil War in 1971.
Pakistan's minority population
dropped from 21% to under 5 % . The bulk of our minorities were left behind in Bangladesh. Pakistan became religiously less diverse, which was a tragedy.
The founder of our nation had not envisaged a theocratic state.
See his 11th August 1947 speech in his own voice here ( Link )

Even if your founder had not made the speech, the more important question is what you and I as normal citizens of Pak & India want our nations to be. Do we want them to be oppressing our minorities or treating them as equal citizens with equal rights?

 

[magra]

Humans aren't vegetarians, we're omnivorous. We have canines....we eat meat. We can't all be veggie loving retards.

First - being retard or not has nothing to do with the fact that you are making your stomach a graveyard of dead bodies or not.

Second - Humans are capable of being vegetarians as well as eating meat. That does not mean humans HAVE to eat meat. We can choose to be compassionate on other beings.

Even if you want to continue being cruel to animals, other reason would be to avoid climate change. Instead of me going into details, if you are interested, read this article based on UN research.

Plant-based diet can fight climate change - UN

A major report says the West's high consumption of meat is fuelling global warming.

www.bbc.com

.

Having said that, I can understand that it is next to impossible to convince people who have been life long non-vegetarians to become vegetarians.

 

[GHALIB]

Sad but when the majority isn't getting justice, what can one hope for minorities? We have a case of model town, 14 deaths and 7 years, victims still waiting for justice.

Do Muslim lives matter in Pakistan?

You're right and what should be stopping this sort of thing? Law and order. In our country minorities do face discrimination, but having such a low standard of law enforcement and such a poor judiciary makes the impact of such discrimination even higher.

I think the original comments Krash replied to were stating the very same problem rather than whitewashing over the discrimination.

The atrocities being committed on the majority is also by the majority. There is no sitting back when the majority will get justice, minority will also get justice, there is no preferential treatment. An example, do tell me the pedophilia has been wiped from Pakistan.

45:30, do tell me he has wiped this crime from Pakistan, he is in government no? There are issues, over issues, tons and tons of 'em. You worry about one, and scratch it, out pops another one. The leadership and those who are in power have to make, judicial and police reforms.

sad state of affairs .minority girls are targeted .

 

[Baibars_1260]

I wanted to discuss just the above quotation.
The separate electorate issue is massively misunderstood in Pakistan across the board. I am shocked by almost everyone.

Pakistan does not have separate electorates, on the contrary, a minority woman has 3 votes and minority men have two votes. There have been a lot of constitutional changes and I do not have a single unified copy of the constitution anymore, the one I do have is a copy from the 1990s.

I agree .
Here is the text of the Amendment motion to Article 106 submitted in the NA by Dr. Ramesh Vankwani:

General seats. Women. Non-Muslims Total


Baluchistan 51. 11. 4 66




Khyber Pakhtunkhwa 99. 22. 4. 125



Punjab 297. 68. 20. 373


Sindh. 130. 29. 14. 173


Statement of Object and Reasons.

Under Article 36 of the constitution the state is obliged to safeguard the legitimate rights and interests of minorities. Presently under Article 51 ( 4 ) of the Constitution ten seats are reserved for non-Muslims in the National Assembly. As regards seats in the Provincial Assemblies under Article 106 of the Constitution three seats are reserved in the Provincial Assembly of Baluchistan, three in Khyber Pakhtoonkhwa, eight in Punjab and nine seats in the Provincial Assembly of Sindh. Three seats were added or increased long back.

There were ten reserved seats for non-Muslims when the number of general seats were 207. When general seats were increased to 272 in 2002, the number of seats for non-Muslims remained the same i.e 10. Minority community strongly feel that minority's representation in National and Provincial Assemblies may be increased according to the proportion to the population of non-Muslims.

Direct Electorate instead of choosing from party list.

By choosing from parties list the minorities have no say in who occupies the 10 reserved seats in the National Assembly, instead these seats become a tool for victorious parties to pick their favorites. Moreover there is a fragile relation between those selected on reserved seats and those who are active members of the community.

Sensing the sentiments of the minority community in Pakistan it is time to end the party list system. Changing the election procedure of reserved seats of Non-Muslims is not a new phenomenon. In 1985 separate electorates were introduced for non-Muslims five elections were held which were totally abolished by 2002. On top of that in the Global community religious and ethnic minorities are represented the parliament through direct elections. Taking examples of Jordan, Lebanon, India, New Zealand, Fiji, Croatia, Iran, and Belgium, where religious and ethnic minorities are elected through direct electorate.

Dual vote system for non-Muslims.

Besides changing the election criteria of reserve seats for non-Muslims it is also proposed that to give the right to non-Muslims to cast double vote. This means dual franchise, and enables non-Muslims to cast one vote to a general seat candidate and the second to a member of their own community. This way they would remain integrated with the main stream politics, and true representatives of their communities would surface. The representatives would be answerable to the community and taking interest in the welfare of development of their communities. the argument of double votes cites the example of the residents of Azad Jammu and Kashmir, who cast votes both in their AJ K hometown constituencies and in the Pakistani constituencies where they reside.

Constituency on divisional basis.

For election on reserve seats for non-Muslims, the de-limitation of Constituencies may be made on divisional basis by the Election Commission of Pakistan. The number of divisions included in each contingency shall be on the basis of non-Muslims population so as to make a total of 15 constituencies for the National Assemblies.

Using the same mechanism 4 constituencies shall be formed in Baluchistan, 4 in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, 10 in Punjab and 14 in Sindh, for Provincial Assemblies. Since 2002, the electoral role in general election do not identify voter by their religions. In this this regard NADRA is the only source to track down non-Muslims population in all divisions of Pakistan, because NADRA has documented religion of every citizen who applies for NADRA CNIC



DR. RAMESH KUMAR VANKWANI

Member, National Assembly

 

[Baibars_1260]

Even if your founder had not made the speech, the more important question is what you and I as normal citizens of Pak & India want our nations to be. Do we want them to be oppressing our minorities or treating them as equal citizens with equal rights?

Even if your our founder had not made the speech, the more important question is what you and I as normal citizens of Pakistan & India what would we want our nations nation to be.

Do we want them to be to be like other nations in the region who are oppressing our their minorities or treating them as equal citizens with equal rights?

 

[magra]

Even if your our founder had not made the speech, the more important question is what you and I as normal citizens of Pakistan & India what would we want our nations nation to be.

Do we want them to be to be like other nations in the region who are oppressing our their minorities or treating them as equal citizens with equal rights?

question is what normal citizens of India would want our nation to be.

Do we want to be like other nations in the region who are oppressing their minorities or treating them as equal citizens with equal rights?