The enemy and Pakistan Army

[Joe Shearer]

Principles of Governance matters only to the top elite who have everything in life and whose own fiscal security does not depend on what the Govt does or doesnt. For the mango man its one and only the economy/development/adminstration that matters.

On the contrary, people fight for liberty and die for it if needed. They do not do so for development or a rise in the share markets index, or things like that.

Governance, living under the rule of law, with none entitled to twist the law to further their own interests, matters more than anything else.

 

[Joe Shearer]

No the Govt in power is the SP as regards the Buddha and Mahavira idols - the baap of Congress in such issues. Regards Azad Maidan it was Congress. And I dont like you feigning that you did not get the point he was trying to convey. Inaction of the Govt on such sensitive issues due to electoral calculations are THE biggest reason why right wing grows. And its not ignorance. It is something that is much more complex.

Oh, I get the point, all right. When nearly 800 people are killed, it is still the government responsible, and it is still the government inactive due to electoral reasons.

Don't you dare to tell me to my face that I am feigning this, that or the other.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Nobody is saying 2 wrongs make a right but Saffron groups will use that footage to drum up more indoctrination and it will be a chain reaction.

And so? Do you consider that action irresponsible? Do you think such a gang should be allowed to wield power?

Once completed they can but we have pending cases and those which are serious like rape, murder and fraud etc

Now go and look up how long they have been pending. Figure out for yourself how easy it is to disqualify a rival by slapping a false case on him (or her).

 

[KS]

On the contrary, people fight for liberty and die for it if needed. They do not do so for development or a rise in the share markets index, or things like that.

Governance, living under the rule of law, with none entitled to twist the law to further their own interests, matters more than anything else.

Looks good when published in the red book but cannot be farther from truth. You have a 1.3 billion sample size next door and still going on with this.

 

[KS]

And so? Do you consider that action irresponsible? Do you think such a gang should be allowed to wield power?

If you dont give them power, when their strength reaches a critical mass, they will take power. You know why ? Because of the demographics. Majoritarianism can never be tackled by law and order. The one and only way to tackle that is solving the problem tat they utilize for gathering support. By cutting their oxygen. For example if the MH and UP Govt had arrested the vandals and made a public show of the proceedings against them will they utilize that to drum up support ? People themselves will reject their agenda. On absence of any credible action, they are completely justified in taking that to the people and exposing the fakeness of the system. Why blame them when the problem lies somewhere else ?

 

[KS]

Oh, I get the point, all right. When nearly 800 people are killed, it is still the government responsible, and it is still the government inactive due to electoral reasons.

See now you are conflating two issues that are not comparable. I'm not going to go into your seemingly one point agenda of Gujarat riots. Anyway as I have been repeatedly telling you people are a part of the problem and not of the solution even though you think you are a part of the solution. The prescriptions you give rather than ending the menace actually increase it. As a person with rightist inclinations who doesn't want extreme right wingers to gain ground, take it that right wingers just feed off people like you - in the sense it is posts like these which have a unidimensional outlook without looking at the bigger picture that increases sympathy for the right wing. No offence.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Looks good when published in the red book but cannot be farther from truth. You have a 1.3 billion sample size next door and still going on with this.

Why look next door? Why not within our own borders? How many proofs do you want?

And these bids for liberty are directly due to the fact that both the Congress and the Muslim League had flawed concepts of the state as it should be constituted, the Congress with its nonsensical Gandhian majoritarian formula, the Muslim League with its equally nonsensical adaptation of the Two Nation Theory. Neither was successful in practice, one less successful, the other more, but both failed to recognize and be sensitive to the issue of identity.

If we had recognized that identity flows beyond the religious affiliation of an individual, a concept that was thrust on us by a fearful and envious religious minority that mistakenly thought that it would be relegated to helotry, we would have not had the multitude of problems that plagues us. It is ultimately not about political Maoism, it is about the identity of the tribal against the slick small-town trader who exploits him. It is not about the Tatar Hoho, it is about being recognized as a tribe that had been conquered but never been ruled.

If you dont give them power, when their strength reaches a critical mass, they will take power. You know why ? Because of the demographics. Majoritarianism can never be tackled by law and order. The one and only way to tackle that is solving the problem tat they utilize for gathering support. By cutting their oxygen. For example if the MH and UP Govt had arrested the vandals and made a public show of the proceedings against them will they utilize that to drum up support ? People themselves will reject their agenda. On absence of any credible action, they are completely justified in taking that to the people and exposing the fakeness of the system. Why blame them when the problem lies somewhere else ?

There is a distinction between must and should.

The way of your thinking is not very logical, you must understand that every action has a reaction so those groups who started rioting in Mumbai and attacked a Buddah statue in UP will make for perfect recruitment for saffron groups.

A good example of this is the rise of the Far right in the west and its counter groups like Sharia4UK both of which thrive on outdoing each other and if you think rich countries like France and UK can't stop them what makes you think India can?

I have never claimed that I am omniscient. If you differ from my interpretation, you differ. What of it? I am allowed my own view, am I not?

 

[Joe Shearer]

See now you are conflating two issues that are not comparable. I'm not going to go into your seemingly one point agenda of Gujarat riots. Anyway as I have been repeatedly telling you people are a part of the problem and not of the solution even though you think you are a part of the solution. The prescriptions you give rather than ending the menace actually increase it. As a person with ringhist inclinations take it that right wingers just feed off people like you- in the sense it is posts like these which have a unidimensional outlook without looking at the bigger picture that increases sympathy for the right wing. No offence.

That applies to a case where the government is overcome by a wave of violence, not to a case where the government actively promotes violence. It applies to Kolkata 1947, not to Kolkata 1946. If you understand what I mean. Of course, you can always choose to do what you accused me of doing a short while ago, feign ignorance. No offence.

 

[KS]

One thing - it was economic insecurity as much as political insecurity that drove Jinnah's demand for Pakistan and it was the same economic insecurity that played a crucial role in drumming up support for the Anti-Hindi agitations in TN. I'll repeat give the mango man his daily necessities and provide a reasonably efficient administration, he will not care whether it is Ram or Raavana that is ruling him.

That applies to a case where the government is overcome by a wave of violence, not to a case where the government actively promotes violence. It applies to Kolkata 1947, not to Kolkata 1946. If you understand what I mean. Of course, you can always choose to do what you accused me of doing a short while ago, feign ignorance. No offence.

I dont agree that the Govt promoted violence. Not until some court of law gives its judgement. Actually the violence need not be promoted. Unlike you I acknowledge and admit that the relation between the two communities was never good to begin with and violence was always lurking underneath. It just takes a scratch on the surface and the pent up feelings come out. Same goes for states like UP, Bihar and now increasingly Hyderabad and Kerala.

That is why I differed with you when you contemptuously dismissed the TNT and that is why I mentioned that it is only time that can tell how certain decisions taken back in 47 with a rush of idealistic blood will turn out to be in the future. Ofcourse you can disagree with me, but it doesnt matter. I have my well-grounded reasons.

 

[Wickerman]

Nice post, but you didn't get the gist of my previous post. We are the Pakistani army, and they are the Pakistani people. Now read your post again after reading this.

I get it. Which further proves my point. Your (the people of Pakistan aka the Army according to you) psyche and your view of history, and your world view has undermined Pakistan. I appreciate that you are taking collective responsibility for the debacle. It also goes to mean that your government, judicial system, civilian governance etc are not important. Because obviously if all were working so seamlessly with a common identity and ideology, you wouldnt see this disorganized and weak political system. Nor would you see a large part of Pakistan fighting for a separate state. And this is the same system that actually represents your country, which undermines you instead of giving you credibility.

 

[Developereo]

I have skimmed the thread and not read every post fully -- notorious_eagle, RazPak and others have been fighting the good fight here --, so what I write below may be repetitive and already addressed. If so, please feel free to ignore.

First off, the OP is a brilliant piece of analysis; it is one of those information-dense treatises where every single line conveys meaning, unmarred by superfluous fluff. It is unfortunate, then, that so many people have missed some important statements in the OP.

The army’s primary task is to guard the borders against foreign threats. [...] The rest of the threats mentioned above need to be dealt with politically and with the support of [...] An internal security or specialised anti-terror force [...] the army should not be employed to solve political or economic issues

This should dispel any confusion that the article justifies the army's role in civilian affairs or denies the societal problems. The problems and their severity are acknowedged, along with the proper remedy: civilian political solutions aided, if needed, by specialized security forces. It is also acknowledged that many of these problems have indigenous origins but are used opportunistically by foreign elements, including India.

Next,

shift Islamabad’s strategic orientation away from New Delhi so that India could be pampered to compete with China and also entrench itself in Afghanistan

This is where American and Indian goals coincide. Talks of Asian brotherhood notwithstanding, India has an unflinching interest in seeking Pakistan's demise. The reasons are multifold:

- No one in the region will take India's role as leader seriously unless it can subjugate Pakistan, and India needs to dominate the region before it can even begin to think about any global ambitions.

- Access to the CARs, both for their resources and also as a chess move against China. India blew it in Afghanistan post Soviet withdrawal, so Uncle Sam had to come along and reinstate a pro-India puppet. Note that the Indian access to Afghanistan through Iran is suboptimal because of the perpetual need to placate the GCC Arabs. Of course, the Indians will say that their diplomacy has managed the problem well, but the one thing better than a managed problem is a non-existent problem. With a balkanized Pakistan and emasculated puppet regimes lining the road from Delhi to Tashkent, India will be sitting pretty.

The big thorn in the bushes here is, of course, Pakistan's pesky nuke arsenal. Therein lies the additional conformance of goals with the US. De-nuking Pakistan is high on the US agenda, not because it has something specifically against Pakistan, but one less player in the nuke game is always a good thing. Especially if that player is cozy with the Chinese and is uncomfortably close to the Middle East.

However, the American animosity to Pakistan is indirect and can be alleviated in time. The only irritant is the constant Indian reinforcement of its demand -- uttered not in so many words -- that emasculating Pakistan is India's price for any cooperation in the US's wider geopolitical games.

Some Indians will claim that all this is hogwash and India, pure as the driven snow, seeks nothing but honest friendship with Pakistan. Some Indians may even believe that. But Pakistan's policy cannot be formulated based on the best elements from the other wise, but realistic appraisals. With festering issues like Kashmir and water disputes still extant, the needle shifts from 'realistic' towards 'malicious'. Constantly antagonistic diplomatic moves and other clandestine actions reinforce that appraisal.

Finally, coming to future projections, the Indians here are absolutely right that India's economic advantage is only increasing, along with all that it entails. The article, as mentioned above, acknowledges that Pakistan needs to get the engines firing on all cylinders instead of relying solely on a military defence.

 

[Developereo]

Support for insurgencies are a long slow process, control over water is way simpler as a method of applying pressure.

Huge difference: dam building and water rationing lacks the crucial element of plausible deniability which has been the hallmark of Indian aggression against Pakistan so far.

 

[Developereo]

It is all very well for an institution to represent the will and pride of the people. That does not allow the people to abdicate responsibility.[...]Seeking accountability is in no way, for instance, an absence of affiliation, and asking for accountability does not amount to sidelining

You have to understand the Pakistani affinity for the army in the proper context of the disaster that is the civilian setup. People are concerned about the army's finances and accountability, but its excesses are by far the lesser evil compared to the feudals'.

As I noted elsewhere, Pakistan is stuck in a rut because of the feudal domination, not because of the army. I see no easy answers.

Pakistan waste the water it gets and you wish to blame India?

Bang Galore's post specifically mentioned using water as a weapon. That is an internationally recognized act of hostility, even war, regardless of what Pakistan does on its side.

 

[somebozo]

You have to understand the Pakistani affinity for the army in the proper context of the disaster that is the civilian setup. People are concerned about the army's finances and accountability, but its excesses are by far the lesser evil compared to the feudals'.

As I noted elsewhere, Pakistan is stuck in a rut because of the feudal domination, not because of the army. I see no easy answers.

.

The feudals survive at the whim of a state with tactics understanding of the army much like how the Taliban were mushroomed up. Four periods of military dictatorships and none has been able to depose the feudal and hang the corrupt..enough of an evidence.

 

[Bang Galore]

Huge difference: dam building and water rationing lacks the crucial element of plausible deniability which has been the hallmark of Indian aggression against Pakistan so far.

Not suggesting that it won't but we were talking about upping the ante. As I have already said, the dams have & are still being built. It gives us unprecedented control over Pakistan's waters which should make anyone in Pakistan advocating a super belligerent position against India, to take a deep breadth & pause. The fact remains that the IWT continues to function because India allows it, an abrogation can always happen. Reducing your water will not necessarily cause rationing but the economic impact will be substantial. Just another advantage in the chess game proposed to be played. Whether used or not, it still has tremendous blood pressure raising ability.

Bang Galore's post specifically mentioned using water as a weapon. That is an internationally recognized act of hostility, even war, regardless of what Pakistan does on its side.

Nope. The IWT can be abrogated & international principles of water sharing applied which will automatically reduce Pakistan's share. The IWT is an incredible generous treaty to the lower riparian state. In the face of unrelenting hostility from Pakistan (if), there is no particular reason to continue to be generous.

Something for Pakistan's strategists to mull about.