The enemy and Pakistan Army

[KS]

And what responsibility towards us do you have? It doesn't take a woman's intuition to realize what is clawing at your insecurities. It hurts knowing that there are people like Ajtr that speak against your nation's hegemonic policies, while we the Pakistani people fully support our armed forces. An enemy is an enemy whether it bares teeth like a jackal, or comes in the form of an oasis.

A lemming is far more honorable than a hyena or an opportunist.

The point you made would have been more credible had you not mentioned ajtr -- of all !

 

[RazPaK]

The point you made would have been more credible had you not mentioned ajtr -- of all !

Credible?

There are people like Ajtr aunty and Arundhati Roy all over India. You can label them as left wingers or as crazies, but you cannot silence their voice. And that is the fallacy in your rodomontade of a democracy. You cannot quell the voices of your own citizens, as much as you would like to hope for.

Therein lies our strength and your weakness.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Blaming Sangh Parivar for everything will not set right anything nor are they even responsible for everything. They have had a promotion from being a 'nuisance' to a 'necessary nuisance' because of the prevailing political climate. So lets all hope for a change in the political climate which will take away the oxygen critical to their growth.

I don't blame the Sangh Parivar for everything, only for some things, some vital things. I blame them for creating an atmosphere of tension and hostility towards very important segments of our nation, and of concentrating on the imaginary wrongs and slights of the upper-caste Hindu, especially, but not exclusively those of north India, to the exclusion of other, far more important issues.

They are not necessary. The national alternative to them is corrupt, but the alternative to a corrupt and dynastic Congress is not a corrupt and bigoted Sangh Parivar. The corruption among BJP politicians stinks so much that they can never be, any longer, as for a brief period they might have been thought to be, a 'necessary' nuisance.

I share your hopes for a political climate, except that in my case, it is something better than hope.

My faith lies in the democratic process, a process, incidentally, hugely neglected and used as a tactical convenience, not as a way of political life, by the BJP and the larger Parivar. Their neglect of this process, and failure to understand that it is the long-term interests of the citizenry, not the prejudices of a self-appointed religious and cultural elite, that prevails in this process.

 

[Joe Shearer]

And what responsibility towards us do you have? It doesn't take a woman's intuition to realize what is clawing at your insecurities. It hurts knowing that there are people like Ajtr that speak against your nation's hegemonic policies, while we the Pakistani people fully support our armed forces. An enemy is an enemy whether it bares teeth like a jackal, or comes in the form of an oasis.

A lemming is far more honorable than a hyena or an opportunist.

We did not claim responsibility. On the contrary, unless you have difficulty in understanding my old-fashioned English, I was disclaiming responsibility. That is the opposite.

I am not sure which pop-psychology book you are reading at the moment, but am sure that you should stop reading it. If you have been reading PDF comments - sometimes, in case this has not yet been brought to your attention, it is edifying to read what others have to say, besides reading what conversations one is personally engaged in - you might have noticed that Indians belong to a huge variety of political opinion, and to many cultural and social points of view. There are people in India who criticise Indian policy, not just the policy of the party in power, but the policy of the nation-state. They continue to walk around free, and have their supporters. So the people of India may by and large support their own country, and its institutions; on the other hand, they may not. It is up to them. This is a free country. There are many critics of what the country does, ranging from the sublime to trolleys who have never read the Panchatantra tale of the jackal that lost its tail.

That is called democracy. It is more complex, more full of difficult choices than being in a military autocracy, and having your nappies changed.

So you may be sure that people brought up in such an atmosphere are not made insecure by it. Observers from a different milieu do feel insecure, as they are not used to thinking for themselves, and come out with formulae for leading their lives such as "we the Pakistani people fully support our armed forces."

It would in fact have been bettor for the country, as well as the army itself, if you had NOT supported the armed forces but had disapproved of it in its stupider movements, and there were many such, all faithfully reported and deemed stupid by Pakistani commentators themselves who wished to be more forthright in their approach than their national policy would have liked them to be.

As an opportunist throughout his life, this humble survivor wishes to salute your honour in your assuming a lemming posture, and the ultimate sacrifice that you propose to make.

Oh, by the way, what did you say were your favourite flowers?

 

[Joe Shearer]

The point you made would have been more credible had you not mentioned ajtr -- of all !

Why are you getting personal? Google 'cognitive dissonance' and much will be made clear to you. All of us have to justify our existence, if only to ourselves.

 

[KS]

Credible?

There are people like Ajtr aunty and Arundhati Roy all over India. You can label them as left wingers or as crazies, but you cannot silence their voice. And that is the fallacy in your rodomontade of a democracy. You cannot quell the voices of your own citizens, as much as you would like to hope for.

Therein lies our strength and your weakness.

Your strength in crushing the voices of dissent lead to 71, in country with mere 6 major ethnic groups and our weakness in allowing people to vent it out has preserved the territorial integrity with dozens of ethnic and linguistic groups.

Sure some weakness we have.

 

[KS]

I don't blame the Sangh Parivar for everything, only for some things, some vital things. I blame them for creating an atmosphere of tension and hostility towards very important segments of our nation, and of concentrating on the imaginary wrongs and slights of the upper-caste Hindu, especially, but not exclusively those of north India, to the exclusion of other, far more important issues.

They are a reactionary group and I'm a firm believer in Newton's third law. As I have been saying the pseudo-secularism and various societal factors that is rife in our country is having the un-intended consequence of driving more and more people to the right - especially the youngsters who are more assertive. Unless that (the pseudo-secularism) is addressed, right wing will continue to have more tickets to sell.

They are not necessary. The national alternative to them is corrupt, but the alternative to a corrupt and dynastic Congress is not a corrupt and bigoted Sangh Parivar. The corruption among BJP politicians stinks so much that they can never be, any longer, as for a brief period they might have been thought to be, a 'necessary' nuisance.

I share your hopes for a political climate, except that in my case, it is something better than hope.

My faith lies in the democratic process, a process, incidentally, hugely neglected and used as a tactical convenience, not as a way of political life, by the BJP and the larger Parivar. Their neglect of this process, and failure to understand that it is the long-term interests of the citizenry, not the prejudices of a self-appointed religious and cultural elite, that prevails in this process.

And your absolutely,terribly way off the line here. The two national parties compared, BJP is way more democratic than Congress and way less corrupt.Relatively. And if the alternative to a corrupt, communal and dynastic Congress, if not BJP, is whom ? Third front..sorry no one likes those opportunistic scumbags who share as much idealogy amongst each other as Israel, Saudi Arabia and Papua New Guinea share amongst them... Arvind Kejriwal ? With his ultra-anarchist, far-left views. Sorry. Your faith is hugely misplaced. Without giving us an alternative there is no point in asking us not to believe in something that we see as the alternative.

Anyway this is not the thread for this and I have left it to time to decide whether certain decisions taken 6 decades back would come back to haunt us..whether history would repeat. Lets hope for the best.

 

[RazPaK]

We did not claim responsibility. On the contrary, unless you have difficulty in understanding my old-fashioned English, I was disclaiming responsibility. That is the opposite.

I am not sure which pop-psychology book you are reading at the moment, but am sure that you should stop reading it. If you have been reading PDF comments - sometimes, in case this has not yet been brought to your attention, it is edifying to read what others have to say, besides reading what conversations one is personally engaged in - you might have noticed that Indians belong to a huge variety of political opinion, and to many cultural and social points of view. There are people in India who criticise Indian policy, not just the policy of the party in power, but the policy of the nation-state. They continue to walk around free, and have their supporters. So the people of India may by and large support their own country, and its institutions; on the other hand, they may not. It is up to them. This is a free country. There are many critics of what the country does, ranging from the sublime to trolleys who have never read the Panchatantra tale of the jackal that lost its tail.

That is called democracy. It is more complex, more full of difficult choices than being in a military autocracy, and having your nappies changed.

So you may be sure that people brought up in such an atmosphere are not made insecure by it. Observers from a different milieu do feel insecure, as they are not used to thinking for themselves, and come out with formulae for leading their lives such as "we the Pakistani people fully support our armed forces."

It would in fact have been bettor for the country, as well as the army itself, if you had NOT supported the armed forces but had disapproved of it in its stupider movements, and there were many such, all faithfully reported and deemed stupid by Pakistani commentators themselves who wished to be more forthright in their approach than their national policy would have liked them to be.

As an opportunist throughout his life, this humble survivor wishes to salute your honour in your assuming a lemming posture, and the ultimate sacrifice that you propose to make.

Oh, by the way, what did you say were your favourite flowers?

What you fail to realize is that the institution you are propagating against is not an institution at all. It is the will and the pride of the people. I can understand that India is large country. I can understand that the majority have no affiliation with those that are serving. I can understand that your government sidelines your institutions, but in Pakistan this is not the case.

80% of our citizens are either army personnel or are affiliated to them. These people are not a separate entity, but a reflection of our nation. We think for ourselves as a unit, instead of whistling to your hegemonic tune.

Some generals may have implemented failed strategies, but their noble intentions were observed nonetheless.

With risk comes victory.

We are not deterred by the failure of our military, but are emboldened and inspired.

This is something that your old age and Victorian styled English will never grasp.

 

[Joe Shearer]

They are a reactionary group and I'm a firm believer in Newton's third law. As I the pseudo-secularism that is rife in our country is having the un-intended consequence of driving more and more people to the right - especially the youngsters. Unless that is addressed, right wing will have more tickets to sell.

What a confession! To be driven to do things in opposition to what others do, rather than having a mind and a will of one's own! How inglorious!

As for the pseudo-secularism, that is concentrated in one corrupt party, which has seen an inexorable dwindling of its popular support, so where is the motive for driving more and more people to the right? Unless you mean that pseudo-secularists deserting the Congress will now become anti-secularists joining the right?

 

[MilSpec]

What you fail to realize is that the institution you are propagating against is not an institution at all. It is the will and the pride of the people. I can understand that India is large country. I can understand that the majority have no affiliation with those that serving. I can understand that your government sidelines your institutions, but in Pakistan this is not the case.

80% of our citizens are either army personnel or are affiliated to them. These people are not a separate entity, but a reflection of our nation. We think for ourselves as a unit, instead of whistling to your hegemonic tune.

Some generals may have implemented failed strategies, but their intention was observed nonetheless.

With risks comes victory.

We are not deterred by the failure of our military, but are emboldened and inspired.

This is something that your age and Victorian styled English will never grasp.

The army that has subjugated the political process, the army that has sold it's sovereignty and it's constitution to pentagon for mil aid, an army that has murdered an elected prime minister, an army that was primarily responsible for severing the nation in half, an army that was condemned by the world for brutal genocide of their own people. The same army that has thrown the founders idea in trash and made sure it remains there for another millennium. Your Indian boogeyman syndrome has been perpetrated, nurtured and flourished due to your military-mullah alliance, these ideologies will continue to thrive, your army has perfected the art of disinformation, demonisation and threat profiteering.

 

[INDIC]

Two Nation Theory or not, Savarkar or not, Jinnah or not, Waliullah or not, a United India would not have been a feasible/practical entity and we would have gone the Yugoslav way with multiple tiny republics instead of the present three, had there not been a Partition. And lets agree to disagree on your utter dumping of the Two Nation Theory.

I agree with you. India would have become meddling place all countries from petrodollar to West and Soviets, all would be interfering for their stake in United India. Creation of Pakistan was good for the us.

 

[RazPaK]

The army that has subjugated the political process, the army that has sold it's sovereignty and it's constitution to pentagon for mil aid, an army that has murdered an elected prime minister, an army that was primarily responsible for severing the nation in half, an army that was condemned by the world for brutal genocide of their own people. The same army that has thrown the founders idea in trash and made sure it remains there for another millennium. Your Indian boogeyman syndrome has been perpetrated, nurtured and flourished due to your military-mullah alliance, these ideologies will continue to thrive, your army has perfected the art of disinformation, demonisation and threat profiteering.

So many of your points are so wrong that, I will just say that your post was a bharti brain fart. Really.

It seems like you have not read anything here, nor do you know the situation of my country.

 

[MilSpec]

So many of your points are so wrong that, I will just say that your post was a bharti brain fart. Really.

It seems like you have not read anything here, nor do you know the situation of my country.

whom are you kidding, time to come back from your utopia...

Has or has not your army subjugated the political process??

Did zia influence bhuttos murder?

what is the preamble to your constitution, is your army not selling it to pentagon??

Is bangladesh sitll east pak?

 

[KS]

What a confession! To be driven to do things in opposition to what others do, rather than having a mind and a will of one's own! How inglorious!

C'mon man. Is it criminal to say that we live in world in which action cause reactions and they constitute the action for another round. Do we live in a vaccuum where incidents happen in isolation or are treated as such. Every incident - whether I like it or not, whether you like it or not - is inter connected with one another and influences the outcome. Right or wrong is a different matter, but what is practical and what is utopian is another.

As for the pseudo-secularism, that is concentrated in one corrupt party, which has seen an inexorable dwindling of its popular support, so where is the motive for driving more and more people to the right? Unless you mean that pseudo-secularists deserting the Congress will now become anti-secularists joining the right?

One corrupt party ? Every single party in India that matters barring the BJP exhibit that. Why go the level of parties. Our constitution is not secular in the true sense of the word. Anyway dwindling of support to Congress has much more reasons that just corruption. As I said, the years and years of unabashed pseudo-secularism has brought out the right wing tendencies among the youth and unless that is curbed it is only going to grow. But the irony is that cannot be curbed, because any attempt at course correction would bring you the label of being "communal".

And again what is the alternative to the "one corrupt,dynastic party" leaving out the BJP ? None, nilch, nada.

Anyway this is not the thread for this and I have left it to time to decide whether certain decisions taken 6 decades back would come back to haunt us..whether history would again repeat. Lets just hope for the best.

 

[Bang Galore]

What a confession! To be driven to do things in opposition to what others do, rather than having a mind and a will of one's own! How inglorious!

As for the pseudo-secularism, that is concentrated in one corrupt party, which has seen an inexorable dwindling of its popular support, so where is the motive for driving more and more people to the right? Unless you mean that pseudo-secularists deserting the Congress will now become anti-secularists joining the right?

I actually think that you are wasting your time worrying about the BJP. They have tasted money. Any principles they might have had have long gone for a toss. They are now no more of a threat than the congress because they are not in the least interested in rocking the gravy train they feed of. Not that stupid, these chaps! The BJP & the Congress are far more similar when compared to the Republicans & the Democrats in the U.S. If the U.S. can live with the Republicans, we should be able to survive with the BJP.