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The Eagle and the Dragon - The Roman and Chinese Empire

MarkusS

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We have a super interesting exhibition in Rome which was created in cooperation with the national musim in Beijing, called "The Eagle and the Dragon". I was with some friends in rome two weeks ago and we decided we can skip some time and visit it.

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I must say it was by the far the best exhibition they had since years. They had some artifacts from China, even some of thos terracotta soldiers from Qin Shin Huangdi Emperor, but also chinese artifacts found in Rome and roman artifacts found in China.

We had a guided tour and it was really interesting.

She told us, that China saw rome as its only equal in the world. As the western pillar of humanity while China was the eastern pillar.

Psychological the esistance of rome and china was for both important because it was the rare possibility to get an outside view on each other. Both empires only had barbarians around themself so we have countless of scriptures about evryone but almost nothing about ourself from others.

There is a chinese book, called "Weilue" which was written by a chinese delegation visiting Rome. And its super interesting. It says:

"This country (the Roman Empire) has more than four hundred smaller cities and towns. It extends several thousand li in all directions. The king has his capital (that is, the city of Rome) close to the mouth of a river (the Tiber). The outer walls of the city are made of stone.

This region has pine trees, cypress, sophora, catalpa, bamboo, reeds, poplars, willows, parasol trees, and all sorts of plants. The people cultivate the five grains [traditionally: rice, glutinous and non-glutinous millet, wheat and beans], and they raise horses, mules, donkeys, camels and silkworms. (They have) a tradition of amazing conjuring. They can produce fire from their mouths, bind and then free themselves, and juggle twelve balls with extraordinary skill.

The ruler of this country is not permanent. When disasters result from unusual phenomena, they unceremoniously replace him, installing a virtuous man as king, and release the old king, who does not dare show resentment.

The common people are tall and virtuous like the Chinese, but wearhu (‘Western’) clothes. "

I find it super interesting, because its so accurate. And i wonder about some things.

The chinese diplomat lists almost all trees correctly that grow here but mentions bamboo. We don´t have Bamboo here so i wonder maybe he saw something similar? Also silkworms, we dont have those, maybe he meant something different.

What is interesting is, that he propably was impressed by the street artists we always had here even today, as he mentions them, that we can make fire with our mouth and juggle up to 12 balls with ease.

Its also interesting to see how he mentions our republican system there where an emperor could be replaced when he failed and a new one introduced. He didn´t mention often enough this happened with murder...so my guess is he got it explained from someone more nice than it actually was :D
 
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There is a tiny little difference between your beloved Eagle and the Dragon: your Eagle is dead. That is the main difference here we all should consider.
 
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There is a tiny little difference between your beloved Eagle and the Dragon: your Eagle is dead. That's is the main difference here we all should consider.


When do you have holiday? I advice you to visit us and i promise you, you will love it. Dont be so negative. The eagle is flying and strong. :)
 
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The vast majority of Westerners today are not even descendants of the Romans.

English is a Germanic language.

The Angles and the Saxons were Germanic tribes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxons

The vast majority of American whites are are mixture of German, Anglo, and Irish, i.e. not Roman. :)


I´m italian. We are the sons of the empire. Our capital is Roma. Our blood is roman. This topic is neither about Saxons nor about americans, british or all the otehr cultures we helped to create.

It would be nice if we could stay on topic,and talk about the relationship of our ancestors and chinese ancestors.
 
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I love Han vs Rome debates.

There are similarities between both empires and also stark differences. The Han dynasty is built on the Han people, a homogeneous and Confucian minded race. The ethnic Romans are few, the empire had many tribes and people under their rule who were varied in all ways.

Had Rome and Han made contact, maybe both could combine strengths to wipe out the barbarian menace that plagued both civilizations.
 
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I love Han vs Rome debates.

There are similarities between both empires and also stark differences. The Han dynasty is built on the Han people, a homogeneous and Confucian minded race. The ethnic Romans are few, the empire had many tribes and people under their rule who were varied in all ways.

Had Rome and Han made contact, maybe both could combine strengths to wipe out the barbarian menace that plagued both civilizations.
Chinese culture has way stronger assimilation power and stability ....
She has been supporting a united and centralised government until today and in the future.
We still learn the poems and essays written by our ancestors centuries before the birth of christ in our compulsory education from primary school to middle school.
I don't know much about roman and its culture.
As far as I know, roman empire was very loose....
And I'm not sure was that empire really related with today's italy.
 
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Chinese culture has way stronger assimilation power and stability ....
She has been supporting a united and centralised government until today and in the future.
We still learn the poems and essays written by our ancestors centuries before the birth of christ in our compulsory education from primary school to middle school.
I don't know much about roman and its culture.
As far as I know, roman empire was very loose....
And I'm not sure was that empire really related with today's italy.

Its a combination of Chinese culture and the Han ethnic group that gives Chinese civilization continuity and strength.

Rome did have a culture and some ways one can argue that the western world of today is in a loose way based on Roman culture of democracy and civil law.

The Roman ethnic group on the other had was small, the collapse of Rome and then the collapse of the Eastern Roman Empire was the end, there was no resurgence as there are no Ethnic Romans to continue the civilization.
Towards the end of the western Roman empire, the military was made up predominantly by auxiliary and mercenary soldiers recruited from the barbarians to fight the barbarians.
 
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I love Han vs Rome debates.

There are similarities between both empires and also stark differences. The Han dynasty is built on the Han people, a homogeneous and Confucian minded race. The ethnic Romans are few, the empire had many tribes and people under their rule who were varied in all ways.

Had Rome and Han made contact, maybe both could combine strengths to wipe out the barbarian menace that plagued both civilizations.

I think both developed in a way that was predetermined by our geography.

Han Empire in China was as you said build around a largely monolithic society, while our empire was build around the italian center empire spanning across vast lands of different tribes.

The italian central culture was used as glue to make celts work together with egyptians and iberians for example.

I find those contacts between china and rome so interesting because for both empires its the only way to get an outside look on themself, bot were sourounded from barbarians and that means a belt of silence around them.

Chinese culture has way stronger assimilation power and stability ....
She has been supporting a united and centralised government until today and in the future.
We still learn the poems and essays written by our ancestors centuries before the birth of christ in our compulsory education from primary school to middle school.
I don't know much about roman and its culture.
As far as I know, roman empire was very loose....
And I'm not sure was that empire really related with today's italy.


It is the same here. We read the books of Sueton, Cicerio, Caesar. Caesars book "de bello gallico" about his war in Gallia is obligatory to read in italian schools.

The roman empire was not very loose. It was strictly bound and hold togetehr by the most powerful military at that time.

Today italy is basicly the core of the old roman empire with all the good and bad aspects.

Sometimes its a burden. We have so many things to preserve that it is extremly expensive to do so. Also its very hard to build new things. When you go to Rome as an investor and you want build something, its like hell.

1. you must match that your building does not hurt one of the several thousands laws to protect roman architecture.

2. then you must get thousands of permissions and if tehy find a coin while digging your fundaments your building is screwed because archeologists turn evrything down.
 
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I think both developed in a way that was predetermined by our geography.

Han Empire in China was as you said build around a largely monolithic society, while our empire was build around the italian center empire spanning across vast lands of different tribes.

The italian central culture was used as glue to make celts work together with egyptians and iberians for example.

I find those contacts between china and rome so interesting because for both empires its the only way to get an outside look on themself, bot were sourounded from barbarians and that means a belt of silence around them.




It is the same here. We read the books of Sueton, Cicerio, Caesar. Caesars book "de bello gallico" about his war in Gallia is obligatory to read in italian schools.

The roman empire was not very loose. It was strictly bound and hold togetehr by the most powerful military at that time.

Today italy is basicly the core of the old roman empire with all the good and bad aspects.

Sometimes its a burden. We have so many things to preserve that it is extremly expensive to do so. Also its very hard to build new things. When you go to Rome as an investor and you want build something, its like hell.

1. you must match that your building does not hurt one of the several thousands laws to protect roman architecture.

2. then you must get thousands of permissions and if tehy find a coin while digging your fundaments your building is screwed because archeologists turn evrything down.
Caesars used Italian?
Sorry, I know little about roman culture. :frown:
I mean, what we learn on our Chinese textbook is those poems and essays written in classical Chinese centuries before BC.
Today, we directly use those classical poems, words and phrases very frequently in our everyday life.
 
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Caesars used Italian?
Sorry, I know little about roman culture. :frown:
I mean, what we learn on our Chinese textbook is those poems and essays written in classical Chinese.

Italian is the modern version of latin.

Its hard to explain, but i try too, when i as an italian, see latin texts or hear someone speak latin, i can understand it. It just sounds strange, because its a little bit different. Like another dialect.

Unfortunately i dont know anything about chinese language to give you an example from your culture thats similar.

We read Caesars books in their original lation version.
 
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Its a combination of Chinese culture and the Han ethnic group that gives Chinese civilization continuity and strength.

Rome did have a culture and some ways one can argue that the western world of today is in a loose way based on Roman culture of democracy and civil law.

The Roman ethnic group on the other had was small, the collapse of Rome and then the collapse of the Eastern Roman Empire was the end, there was no resurgence as there are no Ethnic Romans to continue the civilization.
Towards the end of the western Roman empire, the military was made up predominantly by auxiliary and mercenary soldiers recruited from the barbarians to fight the barbarians.
Chinese empire is based on common culture....
Qing Dynasty was founded by a nomad tribe called Manchu...
But Manchu reckoned themselves as the legit successors and protectors of Chinese civilisation. And they spoke Chinese and adopted Chinese culture, finally nearly completely ditching their own nomadic culture.

Italian is the modern version of latin.

Its hard to explain, but i try too, when i as an italian, see latin texts or hear someone speak latin, i can understand it. It just sounds strange, because its a little bit different. Like another dialect.

Unfortunately i dont know anything about chinese language to give you an example from your culture thats similar.

We read Caesars books in their original lation version.
The romance language family?
From my perspective, since you guys use letters, so local dialects can change the spelling. (such as how Hochdeutsch is different from low land German in spelling @Götterdämmerung ) Gradually, after centuries, dialects become separate languages. You know, language is one part of the identity of a nation. I am just thinking, if you do not use letters, perhaps you will be a huge united country, as opposed to a bunch of province-size small states. (since all romance languages originate from latin).

The case in China is, no matter how dialects change (i couldn't' understand a word of Shanghainese when I was there at first), our written system is unchanged. It helps us stay united and forms a uniform identity of our civilisation.

Just my thoughts.
It's actually very interesting to compare China and Europe....How different they developed in history, resulting in different geopolitical states today...
 
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Chinese empire is based on common culture....
Qing Dynasty was founded by a nomad tribe called Manchu...
But Manchu reckoned themselves as the legit successors and protectors of Chinese civilisation. And they spoke Chinese and adopted Chinese culture.


The romance language family?
From my perspective, since you guys use letters, so local dialects can change the spelling. (such as how Hochdeutsch is different from low land German in spelling @Götterdämmerung ) Gradually, after centuries, dialects become separate languages. You know, language is one part of the identity of a nation. I am just thinking, if you do not use letters, perhaps you will be a huge united country, as opposed to a bunch of province-size small states. (since all romance languages originate from latin). The case in China is, no matter how dialects change (i couldn't' understand a word of Shanghainese when I was there at first), our written system is unchanged. It helps us stay united and forms a uniform identity of our civilisation.

Just my thoughts.

nahhh not quite right.

Let me explain. :D

French, spanish, portuguese, romanian and so on are romanic languages, based on latin. They seperated a little bit.

I can easily understand spanish and portuguese (portuguese just written...when they speak i just dont know...they talk so slow like they are on something...no hard feelings xD)

French is so so.

But Italian is basicly the modern form of Latin. Its virtually the same language which just changed in spelling over the time.

I give you an example.

If i greet you in Latin, i would simply say "salve" and its the same in italian. Italian basicly changed grammar a bit and introduced fome foreign words later on.

Your explanation is quite good actually. Our letter system transforms with the spoken word over time since its not static

P.s.: whats that rabbit in your picture? It looks kinda cool. It has short ears?
 
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nahhh not quite right.

Let me explain. :D

French, spanish, portuguese, romanian and so on are romanic languages, based on latin. They seperated a little bit.

I can easily understand spanish and portuguese (portuguese just written...when they speak i just dont know...they talk so slow like they are on something...no hard feelings xD)

French is so so.

But Italian is basicly the modern form of Latin. Its virtually the same language which just changed in spelling over the time.

I give you an example.

If i greet you in Latin, i would simply say "salve" and its the same in italian. Italian basicly changed grammar a bit and introduced fome foreign words later on.

Your explanation is quite good actually. Our letter system transforms with the spoken word over time since its not static

P.s.: whats that rabbit in your picture? It looks kinda cool. It has short ears?
I haven't read OP yet...
I will read tomorrow and see if I have more comments....

I'm Ili Pika.....
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