The Drag on India’s Military Growth

[Joe Shearer]

Can you please elaborate on this one for purely informational purpose?

I will be happy to, but please wait till this evening, when I hope to take up #38 for answer first, and then come to your response.

Just to give you a head-up, the PLA N is a very short-legged fleet, now aspiring to be and progressively becoming a blue-water fleet. It really does not yet have reach inside the Indian Ocean.

However, when it does reach inside the Indian Ocean, which is not very far away, it will find the Indian Navy ill-prepared, because the Indian Navy has stars in its eyes; it finds it difficult to look at the ground beneath its feet. Or water in front of its bows.

More this evening, please.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Dear huzihaidao12

Please go back to the third line of my last post; I have already agreed that this needs to be done. Just to spell it out in unmistakable detail, I concur with you: a realistic, urgent attitude by India will be helpful for both China and India.

I hope that this statement puts my views beyond doubt, and that you have no further need to refer to this point again! ;-)



I disagree.

A theory formulated by the Brookings Institute, this paper, in 2010, cannot be retrofitted on the Indian government and the bureaucracy for the previous 63 years. The theory can only try to put that government and that bureaucracy's actions within a framework, it cannot create the framework at a point of time before today.

There was never any theoretical formulation of this sort, so its use by the civil service as a piece of cloth is obviously not possible; the use of a non-existent thing is not possible.



Countries do not hold territory depending on how they can solve the infrastructural or other problems of that territory. If I may say this without hurting your feelings, you are making innovations in political science with your statement.



No.

Your post stated:

Do you think the Indian army officers and government officials what is the difference? The military is more honest? Even without public oversight?


I answered that, saying 'Yes'. The military is more honest.

I did not answer saying that the military is without fault.

It is a relative matter; the Indian military is relatively cleaner, compared to the Indian civil service.



The most powerful wing of the Indian government is the Indian Finance Ministry. Corruption takes place among politicians and bureaucrats only if and when the Finance Ministry, and its organs, decide to let it happen. Usually the Finance Minister has to know that something wrong is going on, for it to go on.

There is no affiliation between the Finance Ministry and the military. Military accounts are separately maintained by a branch designated Defence Accounts. These accountants are vigilant in checking examples of 'waste', but not when these are due to the actions of the minister in charge. If you have any examples, I can prove to your entire satisfaction how each originated from the Minister in charge.

I say this because you are unlikely to know the details of the Indian Army's own corruption. That takes the shape of doing favours to each other. The Corps Commander at the time of the Kargil Incident was absent at crucial times, because he was inaugurating a golf tournament in which his son-in-law was playing. Certain senior officers were punished when they bought lawn mowers for maintaining golf greens with surplus funds after buying other transport equipment. A senior general persuaded the local Corps Commander to give a no-objection certificate for the use of a piece of land next to military property, but not military property itself, for building a school, where he was to be the Director after his retirement. These are the cases that occur. The big ones involve politicians exclusively.

Comparing the Indian military to the US is, I am sorry to use harsh words, completely ridiculous.



In this, as in the question of border disputes between India and smaller neighbours, it is your fanciful thinking, not backed, not supported by a single small piece of evidence. We are back to the bachelor being told not to beat his wife.

I am unable to deal with your statements unless you have some facts to put forward. It seems that you are thinking of some other military and addressing these faults to the Indian military.

I am not a militarist, far from it. If anything, I have been bitterly critical of present Indian military leadership, for technical reasons. Knowing them closely as I do, I find these repeated charges of corruption, with no evidence, very disturbing.

Please produce facts; without facts, this amounts only to aggressive needling.



It is indeed, as you pointed out originally, not I. These choices have to be taken by an elected government, because that is the way we work, that is the way we are organised.

In conclusion, I really would like you to examine your posts and see for yourself that making unsupported allegations does not make for a good meaningful discussion. More facts, please, and less of our fears and inclinations.

Regards,

I know what you want to say, just say you there are many cognitive errors, however, sunny or rainy, if need to take an umbrella, can be decided by quickly looking at the sky, not to launch a debate. All my direct.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I know what you want to say, just say you there are many cognitive errors, however, sunny or rainy, if need to take an umbrella, can be decided by quickly looking at the sky, not to launch a debate. All my direct.

I cannot pretend that i understand what you are trying to say. If you are referring to India's policy regarding China, it is not made on PDF. I am sorry, you have the wrong address.

Regards,

 

[huzihaidao12]

I cannot pretend that i understand what you are trying to say. If you are referring to India's policy regarding China, it is not made on PDF. I am sorry, you have the wrong address.

Regards,

Do not misunderstand, I maintained respect for you, but some of your view is wrong, is not about India's policy regarding China, but your many ideas.

 

[praveen]

will china and India go to war again ?
No definetly not for a pile of rocks across the Himalayas which are useless
b)Will China try to contain India?
Yes beijing will fight us to the last pakistani as they are doing now,this in turn will make india as a hedge for US to contain China
c)Can China come out of this encirclement?
Yes it can buy having some reconcilation with india by taking out chinese nukes given to pak in the 80's.This will relieve india some pressure and the trust deficit with the Chinese will turn to a good partnership.Both have bigger fish to fry than this slugfest

 

[Joe Shearer]

Do not misunderstand, I maintained respect for you, but some of your view is wrong, is not about India's policy regarding China, but your many ideas.

1. Nothing wrong in saying that some of my views are wrong;
2. I note that these views are understood not to be views of GoI;
3. Many of my ideas are eccentric, and not understood at all, not just by you, but by most ordinary men and women

However, this with great respect and sincerity: I am increasingly unable to understand you, particularly your last three posts.

 

[Perceptron]

Just to give you a head-up, the PLA N is a very short-legged fleet, now aspiring to be and progressively becoming a blue-water fleet. It really does not yet have reach inside the Indian Ocean.

I have heard that the Chinese Navy has a long way to go into developing C4ISR systems (which could be their KJ-2K AWACS, for all i know) and full-fledged CBGs so as to assume Naval water Control rather than Denial. As of now the posture is of safety of Sea Lanes. Moreover, will not the Diego Garcia factor weigh on the Chinese minds vis-a-vis control over the Indian ocean ?

However, when it does reach inside the Indian Ocean, which is not very far away, it will find the Indian Navy ill-prepared, because the Indian Navy has stars in its eyes; it finds it difficult to look at the ground beneath its feet. Or water in front of its bows.

This to a great extent is true ; The ToI report also highlighted the aging of Naval Submarines, and also India's own lack of a C4ISR System. On top of it, we have a slugging pace of Indigenous militaryware development, so even the time factor weighs heavily.