The courageous Pakistan army stand on the eastern front

[Pagla Dashu]

Where is the verified and vetted database of 'individual events of a million people'?

It does not, since there is absolutely no evidence to support the claim that the PA tried to either eliminate all Bengalis or all Hindu's in East Pakistan. Violence and atrocities were committed by both sides in the course of the war, but there is nothing to suggest that the PA was operating to eliminate all Bengalis in East Pakistan.

Various insurgent groups supported by India were however massacring non-Bengalis under the slogan of 'Bangladesh for Bengalis', which does amount to genocide.


As pointed out above, please show where a vetted and verified collection of all of these individual accounts supporting the claim of hundreds of thousands or millions killed by the PA exists. Just posting a few dozen links of anecdotal accounts which have not been verified by any authoritative and independent source does not justify your claims.

The refugees were fleeing violence, violence that was a result of the insurgents and terrorists creating instability through attacks on the PA and non-Bengali civilians. And violence that was supported and perpetuated by India training and support for the insurgents and terrorists. The PA was responding to a violent uprising by terrorists and insurgents, much as it is responding to the Taliban terrorists and insurgents in FATA, which has also resulted in refugees, but in lower numbers given lower density of population in FATA.

The invasion of Afghanistan by NATO also resulted in a few more million refugees pouring into Pakistan and Iran - refugees alone do not indicate genocide.

To be fair to you, and I am saying this with no tongue in my cheek, you do not have access to Bengali literature which actually provides a huge database. But unfortunately the problem with your posturing is that you appear to fall under the classic definition of deniers - "I can't see, therefore it isn't."

 

[Saleem]

Agnostic muslim (?!) the slaughter by the indian mukti terror squads was not only against non bengalis ---most of the bengalis were loyal or neutral in the conflict- the indian mukti terrorists attacked the bengalis to force them to side with their terrorist campaign - this is another reason why the awami league is so insistent on the trials - they want to remove the witnesses to their tyranny and their political opponents at one go....the Indian govt is very happy with this state of affairs as they awamis are very happy being the the proteges of calcutta ....

 

[LaBong]

Where is the verified and vetted database of 'individual events of a million people'?


It does not, since there is absolutely no evidence to support the claim that the PA tried to either eliminate all Bengalis or all Hindu's in East Pakistan. Violence and atrocities were committed by both sides in the course of the war, but there is nothing to suggest that the PA was operating to eliminate all Bengalis in East Pakistan.

Silly, a database of every single person isn't needed to validate a claim. Statistics does not work in this way, rather a sampling of random persons is used to validate a claim raised by a number of people. That sampling has been done by numbers of neutral foreign jurnos who visited the refugee camps and interviewed the people there, and is available in public domain.

Also did you miss all or part of the community bit? There's everything to suggest PA operation was directed to Bengali speaking diaspora or a substantial part of them for eliminating the same from Bangladesh.

Various insurgent groups supported by India were however massacring non-Bengalis under the slogan of 'Bangladesh for Bengalis', which does amount to genocide.

'Bangladesh for Bengalis' wasn't an approved slogan of Mukti Bahini, just as 'Pakistan ka matlab kya, ...' wasn't a slogan of Muslim league.

'Bangladesh for Bengalis' and yet scores of non-Bengalis still living in that country without any harm! Action speaks louder than words, both for Mukti Bahini and Muslim League!

As pointed out above, please show where a vetted and verified collection of all of these individual accounts supporting the claim of hundreds of thousands or millions killed by the PA exists. Just posting a few dozen links of anecdotal accounts which have not been verified by any authoritative and independent source does not justify your claims.

Answered above. Those few dozen links provide the samplings that has been done on refugees. A 10 million links aint needed.

The refugees were fleeing violence, violence that was a result of the insurgents and terrorists creating instability through attacks on the PA and non-Bengali civilians. And violence that was supported and perpetuated by India training and support for the insurgents and terrorists. The PA was responding to a violent uprising by terrorists and insurgents, much as it is responding to the Taliban terrorists and insurgents in FATA, which has also resulted in refugees, but in lower numbers given lower density of population in FATA.

The invasion of Afghanistan by NATO also resulted in a few more million refugees pouring into Pakistan and Iran - refugees alone do not indicate genocide.

Like I said, as the main refugee influx happened at the initial stage when the war didn't took it's pace(note, I'm not even implying refugees caused the war), so it can be said that refugees weren't a result of collateral impact of an ongoing war like that of Afghanistan.

Also comparing Mukti Bahini with Taliban is stretching the point as far as to be called desperate. A few civil unrest and mob with bamboos don't amount to terrorism.

 

[LaBong]

The HR Commission report based its casualty figures on reports submitted from the field, and its conclusions are in the range of the claims made to the newly formed Bangladesh's program to collect claims by Bangladeshis affected in the war (30,0000). Both these numbers come from verifiable methods, unlike the 'guesstimates and speculation' that results in the '300,000 to 3 million killed' claims.

Now if 'eyewitness testimonies and accounts' have been verified and compiled into a credible estimate by some neutral entity, please provide that evidence to support the claims of larger numbers killed - otherwise such claims are just speculative balderdash.

The same applies to the claims on the numbers raped - no conclusive or verifiable evidence to support those claims has been provided either.

Hogwash.

Hamidur Commission report is based on PA personnels(some 200 or so) testimony, they never even visited Bangladesh or interviewed any actual victim. That report is buffoonery at it's highest level.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Hogwash.

Hamidur Commission report is based on PA personnels(some 200 or so) testimony, they never even visited Bangladesh or interviewed any actual victim. That report is buffoonery at it's highest level.

The interviews are only part of the report - the casualty estimates are also based on the field reports submitted by PA units during the course of the conflict.

Secondly, the HR commission report figures fall in the same range as the claims made to the program set up by the newly formed Bangladesh government. Finally, this particular range also appears to be the conclusion drawn by the experts invited by the State Department, as indicated in the article posted above.

You and others like you on the other hand have offered no scientific or credible estimate of the numbers killed in East Pakistan other than highly speculative estimates based on anecdotal and Indian and separatist accounts (the latter two strongly biased for obvious reasons).

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

To be fair to you, and I am saying this with no tongue in my cheek, you do not have access to Bengali literature which actually provides a huge database. But unfortunately the problem with your posturing is that you appear to fall under the classic definition of deniers - "I can't see, therefore it isn't."

So now your substaniation of your absurd '300,000 to 3 million killed ' claims is resort to unverified stories in Bengali literature.

Get the UN to form a commission to have those 'stories' verified and compiled into a database to come up with an accurate and credible estimate - till then they are just unsubstantiated stories meant to brainwash generations of Bengalis into hating Pakistan and distorting history.

 

[Icarus]

And the names of the books are....? Why this hesitancy in naming the books?

If that article leaves you with the impression that reporting of during the time can't be trusted, then you should read it again. Ms Bose, the messiah, has actually used reports of two foreign newspapers, particularly of Nicholas Tomalin, in an attempt to establish her BS.

Neutral Source: History and Culture of Pakistan by Nigel Kelly(Cambridge University).
If you agree I can also quote Pakistani sources......
Now I would like to see a verified, neutral source for the 3 million figure........

 

[Pagla Dashu]

So now your substaniation of your absurd '300,000 to 3 million killed ' claims is resort to unverified stories in Bengali literature.

When I said Bengali literature I meant biographies and memoirs as well. But I understand. When you have a chip on your shoulder it hardly makes a difference. Why else would you constantly attribute something to me that I have never insinuated?

There is enough in English as well. But when you have already decided that you wouldn't go beyond Ms Bose and HR commission there is little that lesser mortals like me can do. We can take the horse to the well. Beyond that, its upto the horse if it would drink from it or pi$$ in it.

Get the UN to form a commission to have those 'stories' verified and compiled into a database to come up with an accurate and credible estimate - till then they are just unsubstantiated stories meant to brainwash generations of Bengalis into hating Pakistan and distorting history.

The consensus history does consider the massacre of Bengalis and Hindus as genocide, although there may not be a consensus on the number killed. There is no need for any UN commission anymore; not for the Bangladeshis. Not for the Bengalis. History, it appears, has already been 'distorted' by the bad, bad world which is for some unknown reason is out there to get Pakistan.

 

[Pagla Dashu]

Neutral Source: History and Culture of Pakistan by Nigel Kelly(Cambridge University).

Thanks. It wasn't that hard. Was it? I will try to get hold of the book.

If you agree I can also quote Pakistani sources......

No need. One source is enough.

Now I would like to see a verified, neutral source for the 3 million figure........

I would likewise want to see exactly where I have mentioned this '3 million' figure.

 

[LaBong]

The interviews are only part of the report - the casualty estimates are also based on the field reports submitted by PA units during the course of the conflict.

Secondly, the HR commission report figures fall in the same range as the claims made to the program set up by the newly formed Bangladesh government. Finally, this particular range also appears to be the conclusion drawn by the experts invited by the State Department, as indicated in the article posted above.

You and others like you on the other hand have offered no scientific or credible estimate of the numbers killed in East Pakistan other than highly speculative estimates based on anecdotal and Indian and separatist accounts (the latter two strongly biased for obvious reasons).

So we are depending on PA troopers conscience as a proof of numbers of people killed. One can make a comparison to the famous law where rapist and witnesses of raping decide whether or not the rape at all been done!

Any investigation on a genocide which doesn't even talk to genocidal subjects or visit to places where the actual genocide occurred, means zilch, null and void.

However there are numbers of neutral sources as provided in my post #45 quotes the estimated number of causalities as deduced by not so statistically-challenged persons and organizations.

Here's the permalink: http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...n-army-stand-eastern-front-3.html#post1278864

Me and people like me however weren't mulling over the numbers of people killed, and it already been proved in my previous posts that knowing or not knowing the actual numbers of people killed doesn't validate/invalidate a genocidal claim. It's you and people like you pulling off the magic number based on Hamidur Commission and Ms Bose who's thoughtful research which is once again based on Hamidur Commission reports and some other reports of same calibre.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

When I said Bengali literature I meant biographies and memoirs as well. But I understand. When you have a chip on your shoulder it hardly makes a difference. Why else would you constantly attribute something to me that I have never insinuated?

There is enough in English as well. But when you have already decided that you wouldn't go beyond Ms Bose and HR commission there is little that lesser mortals like me can do. We can take the horse to the well. Beyond that, its upto the horse if it would drink from it or pi$$ in it.


The consensus history does consider the massacre of Bengalis and Hindus as genocide, although there may not be a consensus on the number killed. There is no need for any UN commission anymore; not for the Bangladeshis. Not for the Bengalis. History, it appears, has already been 'distorted' by the bad, bad world which is for some unknown reason is out there to get Pakistan.

So after all that verbosity, still no compendium of verifiable accounts substantiating any kinds of numbers from your side, let alone the 300,000 to 3 million claims routinely heard. In the absence of any scientific or verifiable body counts from your side, the numbers argued by myself and others in previous posts remain the only verifiable body counts of the 1971 civil war.

And indeed, history has indeed been distorted by speculative balderdash in Indian, Bengali and Western literature - why else would complete speculation and propaganda be bandied about as fact?

So there is therefore a need for a 'UN commission' to validate all these fantastic claims of 'genocide' and '300,000 to 3 million killed', since the only researched and verified claims indicate tens of thousands dead, not hundreds of thousands or millions.

 

[LaBong]

So now your substaniation of your absurd '300,000 to 3 million killed ' claims is resort to unverified stories in Bengali literature.

Get the UN to form a commission to have those 'stories' verified and compiled into a database to come up with an accurate and credible estimate - till then they are just unsubstantiated stories meant to brainwash generations of Bengalis into hating Pakistan and distorting history.

Bengalis do have access to various Bengali sources from both Bangladesh and West Bengal, so no brain washing needed for them.

Rest of the world weighs the neutral credible sources more than HC and Ms Bose's fallacy, so no brain washing for them as well.

Only stakeholder that is in denial mode is Pakistan and it's more advantageous for India, as by denying the genocide they are only prolonging the atrocities that has been done on Bangladeshis, thus alienating them further.

Why should we go to UN for something which has been accepted by all but Pakistan?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

So we are depending on PA troopers conscience as a proof of numbers of people killed. One can make a comparison to the famous law where rapist and witnesses of raping decide whether or not the rape at all been done!

Any investigation on a genocide which doesn't even talk to genocidal subjects or visit to places where the actual genocide occurred, means zilch, null and void.

However there are numbers of neutral sources as provided in my post #45 quotes the estimated number of causalities as deduced by not so statistically-challenged persons and organizations.

Here's the permalink: http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...n-army-stand-eastern-front-3.html#post1278864

Me and people like me however weren't mulling over the numbers of people killed, and it already been proved in my previous posts that knowing or not knowing the actual numbers of people killed doesn't validate/invalidate a genocidal claim. It's you and people like you pulling off the magic number based on Hamidur Commission and Ms Bose who's thoughtful research is once again based on Hamidur Commission reports and some other reports of same calibre.

I have already responded to that post of yours - it does not prove either the genocide or '300,000 to 3 million killed' claims.

As for the tens of thousands dead, those figures are now confirmed from three sources - the number of claims made to the Bangladesh government after independence, the calculations arrived at by the HR commission report, based on interviews with civilian and military officials and military field reports from East Pakistan, and the calculations by scholars and representatives from Bangladesh, Pakistan and India invited to a State Dept. conference on declassified documents related to the 1971 war.

You and others like you on the other hand have offered nothing but speculation to justify your claims.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Bengalis do have access to various Bengali sources from both Bangladesh and West Bengal, so no brain washing needed for them.

The 'stories' are the 'brainwashing' - any Joe Shmo or Chatterjee can concoct tales of horror and claim that the PA did it, but that does not make those tales true.

Without vetting those claims and verifying them, those tales are just tales, especially given that the three sources mentioned above claimed 30,000 or so deaths.

Rest of the world weighs the neutral credible sources more than HC and Ms Bose's fallacy, so no brain washing for them as well.

Only stakeholder that is in denial mode is Pakistan and it's more advantageous for India, as by denying the genocide they are only prolonging the atrocities that has been done on Bangladeshis, thus alienating them further.

Why should we go to UN for something which has been accepted by all but Pakistan?

Without substantiation of claims, the 'rest of the world' is obviously not believing 'facts'. And instead of merely engaging in ad hominems against Bose, try to refute her claims. Merely resorting to attacking her character only indicates the moral bankruptcy and desperation to perpetuate lies and propaganda about the events in 1971 by people like yourself.

 

[LaBong]

I have already responded to that post of yours - it does not prove either the genocide or '300,000 to 3 million killed' claims.

As for the tens of thousands dead, those figures are now confirmed from three sources - the number of claims made to the Bangladesh government after independence, the calculations arrived at by the HR commission report, based on interviews with civilian and military officials and military field reports from East Pakistan, and the calculations by scholars and representatives from Bangladesh, Pakistan and India invited to a State Dept. conference on declassified documents related to the 1971 war.

You and others like you on the other hand have offered nothing but speculation to justify your claims.

So far all your claim is based on two sources only.

1. Hamidur Commission Report
2. Ms Bose article(pardon me for not calling it research).

Both of them mean nought for various reasons as posted above and post #45.

Show me an official Bangladeshi statement which says the causalities were 30,000.

I however for the sake of debate didn't post any Indian or Bangladeshi sources but derived my conclusion based on -

Gendercide Watch ( Gendercide Watch: Genocide in Bangladesh, 1971),

Estimation as done by R.J. Rummel (STATISTICS OF PAKISTAN'S DEMOCIDE)

Books by Susan Brownmiller(Amazon.com: Against Our Will: Men, Women, and Rape (9780449908204): Susan Brownmiller: Books)