The courageous Pakistan army stand on the eastern front

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Your believe is not a matter of concern here, the term Genocide is used by International Commission of Jurists in the context of killing of Bengali Hindus/Muslims from April, 1971 onwards, and widely accepted by rest of the world.

It is you who cited supposed compensation demand for a particular number of people as a credible source of number of people killed, thus no genocide occurred(which necessarily is Affirming the consequent, ie. compensation for a particular number of people is taken as total number of people killed), and now trying to manoeuvre yourself by raising the proverbial straw man and jumping up and down on it by begging the question.

Lets not lie so blatantly shall we. It is thou and some others who insist on claiming that genocide occurred and that hundreds of thousands were raped. The burden is therefore on you to prove your claims, which you have so far failed to do. The sources I have provided for the around 30,000 dead are comprised of physical evidence (military field reports and claims from family members). The sources you have provided contain nothing but speculative estimates without any evidence substantiating those numbers. I have done more than enough to show the claims of genocide as spurious and unsubstantiated- it is up to you to show us how the claims of the sources you are using are backed up by evidence and what methodology they used.

And they deemed to be as verified source despite no cross-verification or interviewing the victims!

There are atleast interviews eighths people involved and field reports from the soldiers reported to have engaged in these events. That's a lot more than anything you have shown us in terms of the methodology used in the other estimates.

When they say existing report and claims are inaccurate they as well put HR commission report in the list.

Sure-thats my point. There are few reliable estimates available that are based on actual evidence. The HRC and Bangladesh govt compensation programs serve as the closest thing to estimates based on actual evidence. But even they can be argued to be limited given some of the reasoning on your part. But the genocide and hundreds of thousands to millions killed claims are backed by nothing but speculation.

Mujib's speech is irrelevant as I never used it as a source, but it proves the official number quoted by Mujib(even if we believe it as 300,000) is much much higher than HR Commission.

Mujibs speech is irrelevant given that it was made when he could not have possibly known, with any accuracy, the casualty figures. However the number 30000 was provided after the Bangladesh governments program for claims by the families of victims, and so is likely more accurate and actually based on some sort of evevidence.

STATISTICS OF PAKISTAN'S DEMOCIDE
Now isn't this what I addressed earlier- Rummel using various estimates to come up with an average without verifying any of the estimates.

What methodologies does each estimate in that list use? Without establishing the veracity of those estimates, taking the median is pointless.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

but International Commission of Jurists actually say, it was an attempt of genocide on Hindus in East Pakistan.

Based on what evidence?

 

[Rig Vedic]

“You cannot expect a man to live, fight and die in East Pakistan and go to Jhelum for sex, would you?”

Gen AAK "Tiger" Niazi

Quoted in the book ‘East Pakistan: The Endgame — An Onlooker’s Journal 1969-1971′. By Brigadier Abdul Rehman Siddiqi, Head of the Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR), Press Advisor to Army Chief General Yahya Khan.

 

[LaBong]

Based on what evidence?

The following is a summary of the principal conclusions in this study:

(1) During the civil war from 25 March to 3 December and during the international war from 4 to 18 December, massive violations of human rights occurred in East Pakistan. These were committed (a) by the Pakistani army and auxiliary forces against Bengalis, and in particular against members of the Awami League, students, and Hindus, and (b) by Bengali insurgent forces and mobs against Biharis and other non-Bengalis (Part II (b)).

(2) These violations involved the indiscriminate killing of civilians, including women and children; the attempt to exterminate or drive out of the country a large part of the Hindu population of approximately 10 million people; the arrest, torture and killing without trial of suspects; the raping of women; the destruction of villages and towns; and the looting of property. The scale of these crimes was massive, but it is impossible to quantify them. Figures given by both sides tend to be greatly exaggerated (Part II (b)).

(3) In addition to criminal offences under domestic law, there is a strong prima facie case that criminal offences were committed in international law, namely war crimes and crimes against humanity under the law relating to armed conflict, breaches of Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions 1949, and acts of genocide under the Genocide Convention 1949 (Part IV).

(4) Persons who have committed or were responsible for such crimes are liable to be tried under international law by an international court. If, as has been reported, the Bangladesh government are to put on trial senior Pakistani officers and civilians, they should set up an international court for the purpose with a majority of judges from neutral countries (Part IV).

(5) The martial law regime of General Yahya Khan was unconstitutional and illegal under domestic Pakistan law, but owing to its recognition by other states its validity cannot be challenged under international law (Part III).

(6) The Awami League leaders were not entitled in international law to proclaim the independence of Bangladesh in March 1971 under the principle of the right of self-determination of peoples (Part V).

(7) They were, however, justified under domestic law in using force to resist the attempt by the self-appointed and illegal military regime to impose a different form of constitution upon the country to that approved by the majority of the people in a fair and free election (Part V).

(8) The United Nations failed to use its available machinery to deal with the situation either with a view to terminating the gross violations of human rights which were occurring or to deal with the threat to international peace which they constituted (Part VI).

(9) India's supply of arms and training facilities to the insurgent forces was in breach of her duty of neutrality under international law (Part VII).

(10) India's claim that her invasion of Pakistan was justified in international law under the doctrine of self-defence and on the grounds that she was acting in support of her Bangladesh ally cannot be accepted (Part VII).

(11) India could, however, have justified the invasion on the grounds of humanitarian intervention, in view of the failure of the United Nations to deal with the massive violations of human rights in East Pakistan which were causing a continuing and intolerable refugee burden to India (Part. VII).

The evidences based on which they came to conclusion is given in various parts the report quoted.

Here is the whole report: [Genocide/1971] The Events in East Pakistan

Please take note of the fact that, the report doesn't quote any exact number of deaths as a basis of calling it genocide, something which I've been telling from start, and you kept avoiding.

 

[Rafi]

The US and China would veto any attempt to use fraudulently obtained information, all is moot, there is going to be no commission regarding our Army, Ms Bose has exposed the fallacy of allegation of civilian atrocities.

 

[Rafi]

Sarmila Bose
Was was appointed Director of the newly-opened Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism at Oxford University in 2006, she received her A.B. from Bryn Mawr College and masters and PhD from Harvard University.

This is the intellectual, indians are trying to rebut - apparently they are more qualified to judge the outcome of the '71 war.

 

[LaBong]

Lets not lie so blatantly shall we. It is thou and some others who insist on claiming that genocide occurred and that hundreds of thousands were raped. The burden is therefore on you to prove your claims, which you have so far failed to do. The sources I have provided for the around 30,000 dead are comprised of physical evidence (military field reports and claims from family members). The sources you have provided contain nothing but speculative estimates without any evidence substantiating those numbers. I have done more than enough to show the claims of genocide as spurious and unsubstantiated- it is up to you to show us how the claims of the sources you are using are backed up by evidence and what methodology they used.

Pointless as the whole argument was to prove whether or not the source you cited(compensation list as demanded by Mujib) can be taken as credible source, not who insisted what first.

What methodologies does each estimate in that list use? Without establishing the veracity of those estimates, taking the median is pointless.

Taking a cue from your earlier post, I provided a source and the claim made in that source. Verification is up to you.

 

[LaBong]

Sarmila Bose
Was was appointed Director of the newly-opened Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism at Oxford University in 2006, she received her A.B. from Bryn Mawr College and masters and PhD from Harvard University.

An inverse ad hominem argument praises a source in order to add support for that source's argument or claim. A fallacious inverse ad hominem argument may go something like this:

"That man was smartly-dressed and charming, so I'll accept his argument that I should vote for him".

This is the intellectual, indians are trying to rebut - apparently they are more qualified to judge the outcome of the '71 war.

Ad hominem abuse (also called personal abuse or personal attacks) usually involves insulting or belittling one's opponent in order to invalidate his or her argument, but can also involve pointing out factual but ostensible character flaws or actions which are irrelevant to the opponent's argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and even true negative facts about the opponent's personal character have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions.

Examples:

"You can't believe Jack when he says the proposed policy would help the economy. He doesn't even have a job."
"Candidate Jane's proposal about zoning is ridiculous. She was caught cheating on her taxes in 2003."

 

[Rafi]

Ms Bose has proved indian propaganda is false.

---------- Post added at 09:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:48 PM ----------

END OF STORY

 

[Rafi]

So you are disputing an internationally renowned scholar's qualification, by saying you are a better judge of the outcome of the civil war that led to the establishment of Bangladesh.

My friend it appears - you are the one suffering from hubris.

 

[SQ8]

Flocci non faccio, In Vino Veritas.

au revoir

I remember a similar post by a member sometime ago on another forum.. after I was banned for flaring up towards his branding me an Indian.. for my less than appreciative view of our military..
Coincidence I suppose..

 

[Rafi]

I remember a similar post by a member sometime ago on another forum.. after I was banned for flaring up towards his branding me an Indian.. for my less than appreciative view of our military..
Coincidence I suppose..

I am Rafi, from Pakdef.info - I don't remember you, was it from pakdef, I don't actually post on that many forums.

 

[SQ8]

I am Rafi, from Pakdef.info - I don't remember you, was it from pakdef, I don't actually post on that many forums.

Yes... it was on pakdef..
but I dont recall your name..or my name there either..or anyone's for that matter..except Usman.S.

 

[Desert Fox]

Isn't she the same woman who said that East Pakistan was used as a political tool?

There's some truth in that allegation but that's noway diminish or validate the atrocities PA did.

One has to take this Bose family member with tons of salt.

Because you said so?

 

[Desert Fox]

You gotto to remember most West Pakistani civilians lived in cantonments under army watch. It was not possible to systematically slaughter them without facing PA. The main reason behind PA's surrender was to ensure safety of Civilians and Indian Army made it sure after PA surrendered.

Either you forgot or choose to ignore the fact that after the Pakistan Army surrendered the mukhti bahini and other bengali nationalists slaughtered many non-bengalis out in the open in race courses and sports arenas.