The Concept of the Pan-Malay Union: A discussion

[Developereo]

The colonialism history of both Malaysia and Indonesia does not simply follow your analogy of native villagers being discriminated economically in favor of foreigners. That story of course are more easily built to incite nationalism and That is the story the Malay nationalist wants to portray, but it is far from that.

At least in Indonesia, there were a lot of elite natives who collaborated with the Dutch and gain prominence economically and socially. Even now, their descendants still holds economic and political power in the modern nation.

Your example doesn't change the basic reality. In any conquest, there will be collaborators, but the fact remains that the overwhelming majority of the natives suffer due to colonialism. The gains of a handful of collaborators don't even come close to balancing out the loss of the rest of the nation.

So, the statement that colonialism destroys the morale and economic fabric of the natives remains true.

Affirmative action should help those in need, that is the poors and economically disadvantaged regardless of race. If it were to happen that most of the poors are Malays, then help them. If it were to happen that the minority of the poors are Chinese, then you should also help them.

Ideally, all actions should be based on need.

The rationale behind affirmative action is to redress the negative factors hindering an equal playing field. If the minority elites in Malaysia had abandoned their racism and ethnic nepotism, then it would make sense to phase out affirmative action. But the reality is different: Both racism and ethnic nepotism by the minority elites, favoring their own against the majority natives, is alive and well.

It is a difficult situation: each side will claim that they are responding to the actions of the other. At the end of the day, both sides will need to step back and find a middle ground. Almost every single Chinese Malaysian I have spoken to has had extremely racist views of the Malays. It's going to be a long road.

 

[Cossack25A1]

I doubt that this is going to happen. The 1960s Konfrontasi (Confrontation) between Indonesia and Malaysia is one good example as to why it is impossible. The other is the North Borneo/Sabah issue between the Philippines and Malaysia and religious issues - Indonesia, Malaysia and Brunei are dominantly Islam while the Philippines is dominantly Roman Catholic and economic issues and there is this issue about how "Asian" is the Philippines due to Spanish and American culture being ingrained into our own culture.

Some parts of Sabah belong to Sulu. Most of it Brunei. If Sulu want it back, so can Brunei.

Reading history in Wikipedia as well as somewhere in the net, if Brunei had its way, it could have claim Manila as before the Spanish came, Brunei has Manila under its influence.

 

[Nike]

Your example doesn't change the basic reality. In any conquest, there will be collaborators, but the fact remains that the overwhelming majority of the natives suffer due to colonialism. The gains of a handful of collaborators don't even come close to balancing out the loss of the rest of the nation.

So, the statement that colonialism destroys the morale and economic fabric of the natives remains true.



Ideally, all actions should be based on need.

The rationale behind affirmative action is to redress the negative factors hindering an equal playing field. If the minority elites in Malaysia had abandoned their racism and ethnic nepotism, then it would make sense to phase out affirmative action. But the reality is different: Both racism and ethnic nepotism by the minority elites, favoring their own against the majority natives, is alive and well.

It is a difficult situation: each side will claim that they are responding to the actions of the other. At the end of the day, both sides will need to step back and find a middle ground. Almost every single Chinese Malaysian I have spoken to has had extremely racist views of the Malays. It's going to be a long road.

the racist view in Malaysia is going mutually, both side err all of them going racist each other. But sometimes anomaly happened.

 

[Indos]

@madokafc @Indos Can you suggest any documentary about Indonesia's war of independence against the Dutch.



Do you still use Javanese Alphabet for Javanese language.

This is one of the fierce battle between Indonesian soldiers versus British and Dutch in which British used several destroyer ships, fighter planes, and tanks to attack and bomb Surabaya City in East Java. We commemorate that war every October with military parade. Just look into our recent Military thread.....

Battle of Surabaya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We use Latin alphabet now

Reading history in Wikipedia as well as somewhere in the net, if Brunei had its way, it could have claim Manila as before the Spanish came, Brunei has Manila under its influence.

As far as I know, Manila is actually Arabic

 

[INDIC]

This is one of the fierce battle between Indonesian soldiers versus British and Dutch in which British used several destroyer ships, fighter planes, and tanks to attack and bomb Surabaya City in East Java. We commemorate that war every October with military parade. Just look into our recent Military thread.....

Battle of Surabaya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We use Latin alphabet now

Thank you for the link, Indonesia's freedom struggle is quite interesting. So after fighting for freedom and equality for territories occupied by Germans and Japanese, the Dutch and British want to curb the freedom struggle of Indonesia, what a double standard by them.

 

[Cossack25A1]

As far as I know, Manila is actually Arabic

I can't tell though one thing is for sure, Manila was an Islamic kingdom before the Spanish came and colonized the PH islands.

 

[Aepsilons]

The imported workers (Chinese, Indian, Bangladeshi) were not the ones losing their land to the Brits, and identified more with the British colonialists than with the native Malays. These imported workers were the racists, and it is to be expected that the native Malays would return the emotion.
This is nothing unique to Malaysia or Islam; the exact same pattern is seen in Africa.

This is indeed very interesting. Several years back I attended a conference in Aruba in the Carribean and there are a lot of workers from Guyana. From my interaction with some folks from Guyana, it appears that there's a large Javanese, Indian population there, all of whom were brought to Guyana by the Dutch and English during the 19th century as indentured servants/ slaves. What I found very amazing is how their language and religion were maintained. Guyanese of Javanese stock retained the religion of their forefathers, Islam, and preferred to marry Guyanese of Javanese stock. The same can be said of the Guyanese of Indian / South Asian origin. You made a very interesting obervation @Developereo, i'm not surprised if there are pockets of Indian , Chinese communities in Africa who are also quite well off , most definitely influenced by the old imperial system of preferential treatment and their own hard work.

 

[Aepsilons]

I doubt that this is going to happen. The 1960s Konfrontasi (Confrontation) between Indonesia and Malaysia is one good example as to why it is impossible. The other is the North Borneo/Sabah issue between the Philippines and Malaysia and religious issues - Indonesia, Malaysia and Brunei are dominantly Islam while the Philippines is dominantly Roman Catholic and economic issues and there is this issue about how "Asian" is the Philippines due to Spanish and American culture being ingrained into our own culture.



Reading history in Wikipedia as well as somewhere in the net, if Brunei had its way, it could have claim Manila as before the Spanish came, Brunei has Manila under its influence.

Not just Manila, my friend. Actually, when Ferdinand Magellan arrived to the island of Cebu (once known as Sebu), he had befriended the local King , named Rajah Humabon, who ruled what is now the Cebu island. After successfully forging an alliance there, he and his Spanish conquistadores had then went to the island of Bohol (once known as Bo'ol) and forged a blood pact with the local sovereign, named Datu Sikatuna or Rajah Sikatuna. Its interesting that the rulers of Cebu and Bohol were all muslims.

Mindanao Island was also ruled by the once mighty Sulu Sultanate, which had control of what is now modern day Palawan, all of Mindanao, the Sulu Islands and present day Sabah (Northeast Borneo).

The Sulu Sultanate was, in its own right, a powerful entity. And they have cultural affinities with the Bruneian Sultanate and Bornean people. Actually if you listen to Tausug Language, it has some lexical and phonetic similarities with Bruneian dialect, somewhat sounds like Bahasa to an extent. It even sounds very similar to Binisayang Sinug-buanon (Cebuano Dialect).

Prior to the arrival of Magellan, Legaspi, it was clear that the Philippines was a land of Islamic growth. The Spaniards implemented a forced conversion system, and were more prolific in this as compared to the Dutch, who didn't impose their religion forcibly to the extent as the Spaniards unto the peoples of Sumatra, Java, Sulawesi, Irian Jaya, Borneo. They merely utilized an imperialist system and did not have a complex religious , cultural agency as Spanish Audencia.


Anyways, check out this video on the Tausug people of Southern Mindanao and Sulu Archipelago. Its rather interesting.

Parlametrics: Tausug - YouTube

 

[INDIC]

From my interaction with some folks from Guyana, it appears that there's a large Javanese, Indian population there, all of whom were brought to Guyana by the Dutch and English during the 19th century as indentured servants/ slaves. What I found very amazing is how their language and religion were maintained. Guyanese of Javanese stock retained the religion of their forefathers, Islam, and preferred to marry Guyanese of Javanese stock. The same can be said of the Guyanese of Indian / South Asian origin.

Indenture system(Ghirmitya system) was very unpopular in India. After the end of the slavery in Americas, British took many Indians to Caribbean to work on sugar plantation on contracts mostly from Eastern UP and Bihar, many of such folks were even kidnapped people separated from their family and deported to Caribbean to fulfill the shortage of laborers.

 

[Cossack25A1]

Not just Manila, my friend. Actually, when Ferdinand Magellan arrived to the island of Cebu (once known as Sebu), he had befriended the local King , named Rajah Humabon, who ruled what is now the Cebu island. After successfully forging an alliance there, he and his Spanish conquistadores had then went to the island of Bohol (once known as Bo'ol) and forged a blood pact with the local sovereign, named Datu Sikatuna or Rajah Sikatuna. Its interesting that the rulers of Cebu and Bohol were all muslims.

Mindanao Island was also ruled by the once mighty Sulu Sultanate, which had control of what is now modern day Palawan, all of Mindanao, the Sulu Islands and present day Sabah (Northeast Borneo).

The Sulu Sultanate was, in its own right, a powerful entity. And they have cultural affinities with the Bruneian Sultanate and Bornean people. Actually if you listen to Tausug Language, it has some lexical and phonetic similarities with Bruneian dialect, somewhat sounds like Bahasa to an extent. It even sounds very similar to Binisayang Sinug-buanon (Cebuano Dialect).

Prior to the arrival of Magellan, Legaspi, it was clear that the Philippines was a land of Islamic growth. The Spaniards implemented a forced conversion system, and were more prolific in this as compared to the Dutch, who didn't impose their religion forcibly to the extent as the Spaniards unto the peoples of Sumatra, Java, Sulawesi, Irian Jaya, Borneo. They merely utilized an imperialist system and did not have a complex religious , cultural agency as Spanish Audencia.


Anyways, check out this video on the Tausug people of Southern Mindanao and Sulu Archipelago. Its rather interesting.

Parlametrics: Tausug - YouTube

Thanks for clarifying

Anyways, the forced conversion implemented by the Spanish colonizers over the Filipinos save for Mindanao is likely the aftermath of the experiences they gained during the Reconquista when the people that would later create the Spanish Empire and Portuguese Empire reclaimed the Iberian peninsula from the Moors.

 

[Aepsilons]

Indenture system(Ghirmitya system) was very unpopular in India. After the end of the slavery in Americas, British took many Indians to Caribbean to work on sugar plantation on contracts mostly from Eastern UP and Bihar, many of such folks were even kidnapped people separated from their family and deported to Caribbean to fulfill the shortage of laborers.

This truly is a mark of the evils of imperialism. But what is interesting, my friend, is that despite the fact that the British / Dutch forcibly took native peoples of the Subcontinent and the Dutch East Indies, these native peoples' descendents retained the religion and culture of their ancestors. Isn't that just amazing ?

I want to illustrate the beauty of this cultural preservation,

Guyanese of South Asian Stock

Guyanese of South Asian Stock

Guyanese of Javanese stock

Surinamese of Javanese stock

Suriname Javanese, celebrating Eid

 

[powastick]

Ideally, all actions should be based on need.
The rationale behind affirmative action is to redress the negative factors hindering an equal playing field. If the minority elites in Malaysia had abandoned their racism and ethnic nepotism, then it would make sense to phase out affirmative action. But the reality is different: Both racism and ethnic nepotism by the minority elites, favoring their own against the majority natives, is alive and well.
It is a difficult situation: each side will claim that they are responding to the actions of the other. At the end of the day, both sides will need to step back and find a middle ground. Almost every single Chinese Malaysian I have spoken to has had extremely racist views of the Malays. It's going to be a long road.

Affirmative action in Malaysia has run into negative effect. Its making the Malays difficult to employ into the private sector. The majority quality of the graduates are low quality. This in turns making the divide stronger, as the government absorb most of the Bumiputera students. The amount of labor working in the government sector is as high as Greece. So much worker were employed to do nothing. Its unsustainable.

Because of the Malays were not catching up, in the 1990s a decision has been made to make few elites rich to reach the target 30% set. It created some illusion that the chinese were still holding majority the economy. But in actual fact, they had already reach 30% private holding in year 2000, higher if counted by market value. This is not including the goverment GLCs 30%. That is already 60%. The goverment dismiss and insisted in counted in par value (any people with financial background will tell you this is ridiculous). To the chinese is a betrayal, as the goverment renegaded it promise to stop affirmative action businesses. And the malays were not happy as non-elite life were not improve.

When the question this, UMNO (ruling government) said not to question malay rights, and promises to spill chinese blood just like 13 Mei 1969. And that is that famous waving keris-muddin incident. Since then support from non-malay plummeted. Sometimes its hard not to be racist.

I'm for affirmative action in education not businesses. PISA 2009,2012 was an eye opener. It greatly shows you need to fix the education, not business quotas. You need scientist and engineers to propel the nation foward. You can't run sweatshops like China if you want to be a high income nation.

 

[INDIC]

This truly is a mark of the evils of imperialism. But what is interesting, my friend, is that despite the fact that the British / Dutch forcibly took native peoples of the Subcontinent and the Dutch East Indies, these native peoples' descendents retained the religion and culture of their ancestors. Isn't that just amazing ?

I want to illustrate the beauty of this cultural preservation,

View attachment 111909
Guyanese of South Asian Stock

View attachment 111910
Guyanese of South Asian Stock

View attachment 111911
Guyanese of Javanese stock

View attachment 111912
Surinamese of Javanese stock

View attachment 111913
Suriname Javanese, celebrating Eid

Yes, I have talked to some of them, many of them even know their ancestral place in India.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

I think Vietnam should also be included in that union.

 

[tonyget]

Let's say you live in a village.
Actually, the policy is more like the affirmative action policies in the US, Canada and Australia, which favor the Native Americans and Aborigines, in recognition of their losses by colonialism.

The only difference is that, in Malaysia, the natives got their land back, but the inequities of the colonial era remain and still need to be redressed.

No, in the US, Canada and Australia, the affirmative actions favor minority, while in Malaysia it favors majority.