The Concept of the Pan-Malay Union: A discussion

[powastick]

There are almost no Malay Malaysians on this forum, so all you will get will be racist attacks by non-Malays onto Malays.

Hardly a fair "debate".

Malay lands and people have been divided by colonialists over the centuries; it is going to be very difficult to undo the damage of the colonial era.

Racist attack by me? I'm very neutral here unbiased despite living in Malaysia. I don't know where I got it wrong. Was it because i pointed out Malays moving culturally towards Arabs. You can search it out if you don't believe me.

Edit# I think pointing out that Islamic education.

 

[Developereo]

Racist attack by me? I'm very neutral here unbiased despite living in Malaysia. I don't know where I got it wrong. Was it because i pointed out Malays moving culturally towards Arabs. You can search it out if you don't believe me.

Edit# I think pointing out that Islamic education.

I am not talking about you, specifically.

The fact is that there is racial animosity between Malays and Chinese, but the fault goes both ways.

The Chinese in Malaysia (and Indonesia) ensconced themselves into a position of elite minority by a combination of hard work and rampant ethnic nepotism. They look down upon the natives with a rancid racism that would make the KKK blush! They have their own racially pure schools, discourage intermarriage with the natives, and generally hold themselves aloof.

The Chinese are not unique in this. The same elitist racism pervades the affluent Indian minority in Africa.

All these minority groups came during the colonial era, when the natives were subjugated, and identified themselves more with the colonialists than with the natives. No surprise, then, that that natives reciprocate the racism back to these elitist communities.

The Malays are trying to reclaim control of their land and redress the wrongs of the colonial era.

 

[powastick]

The Chinese in Malaysia (and Indonesia) ensconced themselves into a position of elite minority by a combination of hard work and rampant ethnic nepotism. They look down upon the natives with a rancid racism that would make the KKK blush! They have their own racially pure schools, discourage intermarriage with the natives, and generally hold themselves aloof.

I have to point out that having radically pure school or not doesn't stop chinese being butchered in Indonesia. To be fair to me, I'm not from Chinese school. I don't even know Mandarin. I even spend in time Islamic studies during primary.Adopting local names in Indonesia and Thailand doesn't help. Discourage intermarriage is because the chinese are patriarchal where tradition must be preserve (girls not so much) so there is animosity towards Islam not Indian Hindu. Force conversion for males means dead generation. Ethnic nepotism (guanxi) exist mostly because of language barrier and participation relegated to elite malays. Its Networking in English, it existed for chinese tradition. Networking important today except some business like internet business. 'Hold themselves aloof', true I admit.

All these minority groups came during the colonial era, when the natives were subjugated, and identified themselves more with the colonialists than with the natives. No surprise, then, that that natives reciprocate the racism back to these elitist communities.

I think this one thing most Malays won't point out. During colonial, Malays have poor work ethics because of subsistence agriculture. Productivity of Malays are low especially with Hard labor (they were not used to hard labor/absentee was high and little use for British money). The Chinese and the Indians are willing to work hard for meager wages without resorting to slavery. It makes no sense to transport worker from India and China (expensive). During that period India suffering from famine as farm land converted into cotton and opium while China is suffering from rebellion and opium war. The best way to experience this in the modern world, is to go to countries like Papua New Guinea and African countries and experience it first hand their work ethics. (I'm trying not to be racist but its true) But I do feel chinese should strive to leave Malaysia. So that they got nobody to blame. Unfortunately many are patriots.

Malaysia has stuck in a middle income trap. There is a limit what affirmative action can archive. I hope that Malaysia won't go into another racial riot. When that time comes, we should leave. Hate is a powerful weapon.

 

[Nike]

I am not talking about you, specifically.

The fact is that there is racial animosity between Malays and Chinese, but the fault goes both ways.

The Chinese in Malaysia (and Indonesia) ensconced themselves into a position of elite minority by a combination of hard work and rampant ethnic nepotism. They look down upon the natives with a rancid racism that would make the KKK blush! They have their own racially pure schools, discourage intermarriage with the natives, and generally hold themselves aloof.

The Chinese are not unique in this. The same elitist racism pervades the affluent Indian minority in Africa.

All these minority groups came during the colonial era, when the natives were subjugated, and identified themselves more with the colonialists than with the natives. No surprise, then, that that natives reciprocate the racism back to these elitist communities.

The Malays are trying to reclaim control of their land and redress the wrongs of the colonial era.

it's hardly the issue here, Malaysian Malays is actually the racist here with their Bumiputra policy and not only they pointed those policies against Chinese Malay ethnics but toward Indian and Bangladeshi Malays too, even those policy has been broadened against Indonesian Malays too and other peoples who doesn't share the Islam as religions.

 

[Armstrong]

So @Indos @madokafc - Not to sound ignorant but whats the difference between the people of Indonesia & the people of Malaysia ?

I'm sorry I don't know much !

Except that both are Muslim Majority countries & that Indonesia is a friend of Pakistan !

 

[Developereo]

I have to point out that having radically pure school or not doesn't stop chinese being butchered in Indonesia.

I didn't intend to suggest in any way that there is ever any justification for ethnic massacres. Whatever grievances anyone may have, we can unconditionally condemn the ethnic massacres.

To be fair to me, I'm not from Chinese school. I don't even know Mandarin. I even spend in time Islamic studies during primary.Adopting local names in Indonesia and Thailand doesn't help. Discourage intermarriage is because the chinese are patriarchal where tradition must be preserve (girls not so much) so there is animosity towards Islam not Indian Hindu. Force conversion for males means dead generation. Ethnic nepotism (guanxi) exist mostly because of language barrier and participation relegated to elite malays. Its Networking in English, it existed for chinese tradition. Networking important today except some business like internet business. 'Hold themselves aloof', true I admit.

Thank you for confirming what I wrote. There is racism on both sides, but people rarely admit it.

I think this one thing most Malays won't point out. During colonial, Malays have poor work ethics

You have to put this in context.

In many cases -- from the Americas to Australia to Malaysia -- when native peoples are subjugated by colonialism, they tend to lose their spirit and the entire culture becomes despondent. The imported workers by contrast, Chinese and Indians, are "conquering" new territory and are invigorated.

Malaysia has stuck in a middle income trap. There is a limit what affirmative action can archive. I hope that Malaysia won't go into another racial riot. When that time comes, we should leave. Hate is a powerful weapon.

I would hope that patriotism would bind the various ethnic groups tighter and overcome any division.

it's hardly the issue here, Malaysian Malays is actually the racist here with their Bumiputra policy and not only they pointed those policies against Chinese Malay ethnics but toward Indian and Bangladeshi Malays too, even those policy has been broadened against Indonesian Malays too and other peoples who doesn't share the Islam as religions.

The imported workers (Chinese, Indian, Bangladeshi) were not the ones losing their land to the Brits, and identified more with the British colonialists than with the native Malays. These imported workers were the racists, and it is to be expected that the native Malays would return the emotion.

This is nothing unique to Malaysia or Islam; the exact same pattern is seen in Africa.

 

[INDIC]

@madokafc @Indos Can you suggest any documentary about Indonesia's war of independence against the Dutch.

it was much different, Javanese language is come from Sanskrit and Hindu verda roots they have some similarity in gramatical, writings and some vocab with old Thais and old Khmer language. Bahasa Indonesia language is come from Riau and southern Sumatran Malays language, in which has been chosen as Indonesian National Language because at the time it was the most neutral and widely used by numerous Indonesian ethnics because they have been used for centuries by merchants around South East Asia. Bahasa at first is mostly written in Arabs, and then we are using Latin style to make them more easier to be learned and distributed across the archipelago.

Do you still use Javanese Alphabet for Javanese language.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

@madokafc @Indos Can you suggest any documentary about Indonesia's war of independence against the Dutch.



Do you still use Javanese Alphabet for Javanese language.

For anyone learning Javanese literature, yes!

In actual conversation almost no one use it.

Example:

 

[Nike]

I didn't intend to suggest in any way that there is ever any justification for ethnic massacres. Whatever grievances anyone may have, we can unconditionally condemn the ethnic massacres.



Thank you for confirming what I wrote. There is racism on both sides, but people rarely admit it.



You have to put this in context.

In many cases -- from the Americas to Australia to Malaysia -- when native peoples are subjugated by colonialism, they tend to lose their spirit and the entire culture becomes despondent. The imported workers by contrast, Chinese and Indians, are "conquering" new territory and are invigorated.



I would hope that patriotism would bind the various ethnic groups tighter and overcome any division.



The imported workers (Chinese, Indian, Bangladeshi) were not the ones losing their land to the Brits, and identified more with the British colonialists than with the native Malays. These imported workers were the racists, and it is to be expected that the native Malays would return the emotion.

This is nothing unique to Malaysia or Islam; the exact same pattern is seen in Africa.

can you blaming something happened hundred years ago to current generations? British Colonialism is over there is no need to replace them with local tyranny, Malaysian is composed with Chinese, Malays and India as the three most largest ethnics there and they should work together for better Malaysia in future. There is no need to maintain superiority over racial issue like Bumiputra policy, that's more like Malays version of White South African apartheid policy except is to be done by the majority ethnic.

So @Indos @madokafc - Not to sound ignorant but whats the difference between the people of Indonesia & the people of Malaysia ?

I'm sorry I don't know much !

Except that both are Muslim Majority countries & that Indonesia is a friend of Pakistan !

Your question is more look a like with the question of what's the difference between Japanese or Korean people my friend. Both of them looking the same but very different in culture and way of life and has small differences in facial structure although both of them is East Asian Mongoloid races. Indonesian and Malaysian is almost the same cases, except Indonesian is way much diverse and has been filled with so many interracial marriage as Indonesia has a long history of historical amalgamation and had been a melting pot for various ethnics, races and cultures.

from East to the west, Indonesian has so many ethnics and all of them has their own cultures.

 

[Indos]

So @Indos @madokafc - Not to sound ignorant but whats the difference between the people of Indonesia & the people of Malaysia ?

I'm sorry I don't know much !

Except that both are Muslim Majority countries & that Indonesia is a friend of Pakistan !

In term of looks not many different though, actually we come from a relatively similar camp. Most Indonesian/Most Malaysian/Some Singaporean, Most Philipinos are all Malay race. We are related to one another, Current Malaysian PM is actually a Bugist descent, which is one of Indonesian ethnic mostly living in Sulawesi, Malaysian people living in Negeri Sembilan state has similar ethnic with me as Minang Kabau people (originated from West Sumatra, Indonesia) and their first modern head of state also come from this ethnic. Our member here @nufix is either Malay or Minang Kabau descent since he is from Riau island.

Yusof bin Ishak (First President of Singapore who is Indonesian descent from Minang Kabau ethnic)

Yusof bin Ishak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Indonesian has always had a positve view about Pakistan no matter what (based on Pew Research)

 

[Developereo]

can you blaming something happened hundred years ago to current generations? British Colonialism is over there is no need to replace them with local tyranny, Malaysian is composed with Chinese, Malays and India as the three most largest ethnics there and they should work together for better Malaysia in future.

Let's say you live in a village.

Someone comes and conquers your village and throws all of you on the streets. The conquerors say that everyone must now earn their houses anew. They also bring in some foreign workers who are racist towards you, and discriminate against you in favor of their own ethnic group.

When the conquerors finally leave, you find that the foreign workers now form an elite, elusive, racist class that owns the best parts of the village, and your people are reduced to living in the gutters.

What do you do?

Ultimately, Malaysians of all ethnicities will have to drop their racism and work towards an inclusive society, but the continuing inequities of the colonial era will remain a stumbling block for some time to come.

There is no need to maintain superiority over racial issue like Bumiputra policy, that's more like Malays version of White South African apartheid policy except is to be done by the majority ethnic.

Actually, the policy is more like the affirmative action policies in the US, Canada and Australia, which favor the Native Americans and Aborigines, in recognition of their losses by colonialism.

The only difference is that, in Malaysia, the natives got their land back, but the inequities of the colonial era remain and still need to be redressed.

 

[powastick]

The imported workers by contrast, Chinese and Indians, are "conquering" new territory and are invigorated.

You don't understand our suffering. You think is easy leaving china and working here hard labor working under humid and hot conditions(we are not from tropics), sending money back to China to feed your starving clan? Do ever been pressured to feed your family with your crying children. The point where you think if suicide can feed your family, you'll gladly do it. My granduncle migrated here committed suicide with his wife and his children, by jumping into the well because he didn't want to pressure my grandfather. I can explain how some chinese succeeded, but most didn't. I doubt you want to listen or believe, i bet you just want to argue with me. Bring me to tears the way you slander us chinese.

can you blaming something happened hundred years ago to current generations? British Colonialism is over there is no need to replace them with local tyranny, Malaysian is composed with Chinese, Malays and India as the three most largest ethnics there and they should work together for better Malaysia in future. There is no need to maintain superiority over racial issue like Bumiputra policy, that's more like Malays version of White South African apartheid policy except is to be done by the majority ethnic.

I disagree. Bumiputera policy (affirmative action) must continue.
PISA 2012 Math
Malaysia rank 52/60 421
Indonesia rank 64/65 375
Singapore rank 2/65 573.

Before PISA, it was hard to gauge. Now is understandable, the government should have come clean with us from the beginning.
America SAT Bias.

• Whites: 0 (control group)
• Blacks: +230
• Hispanics: +185
• Asians: –50

 

[nufix]

Our member here @nufix is either Malay or Minang Kabau descent since he is from Riau island.

I grew up in Riau, I can speak both Malay and Minang, but my descendants were neither malay nor minang.

 

[Developereo]

You don't understand our suffering. You think is easy leaving china and working here hard labor working under humid and hot conditions(we are not from tropics), sending money back to China to feed your starving clan? Do ever been pressured to feed your family with your crying children. The point where you think if suicide can feed your family, you'll gladly do it. My granduncle migrated here committed suicide with his wife and his children, by jumping into the well because he didn't want to pressure my grandfather. I can explain how some chinese succeeded, but most didn't. I doubt you want to listen or believe, i bet you just want to argue with me. Bring me to tears the way you slander us chinese.

I am sorry.
I didn't mean to offend you.

I wrote quite explicitly that the foreign workers were hard workers. The word "conquered" was meant in the sense of the American pioneers who "conquered:" the Wild West. No one can deny that the pioneers suffered many hardships and worked hard.

My point was that racism exists in both directions.

 

[Maxtini]

Let's say you live in a village.

Someone comes and conquers your village and throws all of you on the streets. The conquerors say that everyone must now earn their houses anew. They also bring in some foreign workers who are racist towards you, and discriminate against you in favor of their own ethnic group.

When the conquerors finally leave, you find that the foreign workers now form an elite, elusive, racist class that owns the best parts of the village, and your people are reduced to living in the gutters.

What do you do?

Ultimately, Malaysians of all ethnicities will have to drop their racism and work towards an inclusive society, but the continuing inequities of the colonial era will remain a stumbling block for some time to come.

Actually, the policy is more like the affirmative action policies in the US, Canada and Australia, which favor the Native Americans and Aborigines, in recognition of their losses by colonialism.

The only difference is that, in Malaysia, the natives got their land back, but the inequities of the colonial era remain and still need to be redressed.

The colonialism history of both Malaysia and Indonesia does not simply follow your analogy of native villagers being discriminated economically in favor of foreigners. That story of course are more easily built to incite nationalism and That is the story the Malay nationalist wants to portray, but it is far from that.

At least in Indonesia, there were a lot of elite natives who collaborated with the Dutch and gain prominence economically and socially. Even now, their descendants still holds economic and political power in the modern nation.

The problem is that it is easier to draw line between "we the natives" and "they the foreigner/immigrants" rather than "we the underclass" and "they the elites". And in the case of Malaysia, it is exactly that line that justify affirmative action policies. Who benefit the most? It is principallty the elite Malays who benefited the most. Affirmative action should help those in need, that is the poors and economically disadvantaged regardless of race. If it were to happen that most of the poors are Malays, then help them. If it were to happen that the minority of the poors are Chinese, then you should also help them.

The story of Indonesia is different though. The Indonesian government since 1998 reform has begun to erase the line between "pribumi" (natives) and "keturunan" (descendants of immigrants). Under 2002 citizenship law, those who were born in Indonesia and has never accepted other countries' citizenship are considered as "Native Indonesian", including the Chinese, Indian, and other foreign ethnic groups. The affirmative action instituted by Indonesian government are not race based, but purely economic-based. Example is affirmative action towards Papuans and East Indonesians, where their economies are still underdeveloped.

As consequences, In Indonesia, the story of economic struggle has shifted from "we the poor natives" and "they the wealthy chinese" to "we the underclass" and "they the rich elites". This perception is also driven by the fact that a lot of corruption scandals involves a lot of rich natives Indonesian.

Of course racism still exists in Indonesia, but it is the consensus of most Indonesian that it should not be institutionalized as in the case of Malaysia.

In Indonesia, the sacrifices has been made. Due to Suharto's policy, Chinese schools were closed, most Chinese Indonesian can't speak Chinese, and they can;t even have chinese name. As the consequences, after reformation Era abolishing those discrimination against chinese, the Chinese Indonesians has become more willing to integrate with other fellow Indonesians in contrast with their Malaysian counterpart..